Brexit Discussion Thread VI

Seth Brundle

kunst nugget wrote: »

I don't think that's true at all. We were pretty easily hoodwinked by BS during the first Lisbon referendum.

How?

prawnsambo

10000maniacs wrote: »

Tory MP Rory Stewart on Newsnight. They still don't get it.

This is why I believe they'll just walk themselves off the cliff telling each other as they fall that "we have them now, they're bound to cave before we reach the bottom".

kunst nugget

Seth Brundle wrote: »

How?

A lot of people were swayed to a no vote over unfounded fears of conscription to a EU army and a loss of control over our abortion laws.

prawnsambo

kunst nugget wrote: »

A lot of people were swayed to a no vote over unfounded fears of conscription to a EU army and a loss of control over our abortion laws.

I'm pretty sure it was mostly an anti-government vote. Not sure there were any credible claims about conscription or abortion.

J Mysterio

Well Jesus Christ. Here's an article on what an Ciarraioch reported earlier.

Brexit: Theresa May offers Conservative rebels fresh compromise likely to anger EU

Parliament will be given chance to vote against UK entering backstop, even if legally binding Brexit deal says it must

Unbelievable, WTF. Cloud Cuckoo Land.

This isnt a compromise. May is offering what is not in her gift. This is totally ridiculous. They must want to crash out at this stage.

Enzokk

Bit cynical wrote: »

Because the previous referendum the UK voted to leave the EU and the specified mechanism for that is Article 50 which has a period of two years negotiation. When that is up, the UK leaves according to the outcome of the first referendum. The UK government can't extend article 50 without violating the first referendum unless they call a second one.

Is there a set time limit that the UK has to wait before they can change their minds on the EU after the referendum? I only ask because the previous referendum on the EU was an overwhelming majority it was 41 before the next referendum. So if a 67% to 33% results in a 41 year wait, how long does a 52% to 48% result mean we have to wait?

Also, seems that 17.4m people voted to leave the EU out of a population of 65.6m and 46.5m registered voters and this means you go and don't look back at all. But what does 17.3m people voting to join the EEC out of a population 56.2m and 40m registered voters mean?

I don't think those numbers mean anything, it has just been bugging me when it is mentioned that 17.4m people voted to leave the EU as if it is some magical number.

kunst nugget

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it was mostly an anti-government vote. Not sure there were any credible claims about conscription or abortion.

The claims weren't credible - that doesn't mean they didn't play a part in how people voted.

When voters were directly asked about specific issues, which had
featured strongly in the referendum, 82% of ‘no’ voters (compared to 71% of ‘yes’ voters) said military neutrality was important / very important in determining how they voted; 71% of ‘no’ voters said the loss of a commissioner was important and 86% of ‘no’ voters cited ‘workers’ rights’. Though of less concern than these issues, voters with a conservative religious position on abortion expressed concerns, that the EU Court of Justice could interpret abortion as a fundamental right – over-riding Ireland’s de facto legal prohibition on abortion and one conservative pro-business group Libertas, argued that Lisbon gave the EU the potential authority to require Ireland to raise its low level of corporation tax. The issue of conscription, though hardly featuring during the campaign itself, apart from on the websites and leaflets of groups quite marginal to the campaign, was highlighted in the research report, as 48% of ‘no’ voters and remarkably 26% of ‘yes’ voters said the ‘introduction of conscription to a European army’ was ‘included’ in the treaty.

http://www.military.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/images/Info_Centre/documents/Annual_Reviews/Defence_Forces_Review_2012.pdf#page=20

amacca

J Mysterio wrote: »

Well Jesus Christ. Here's an article on what an Ciarraioch reported earlier.

Brexit: Theresa May offers Conservative rebels fresh compromise likely to anger EU

Parliament will be given chance to vote against UK entering backstop, even if legally binding Brexit deal says it must

Unbelievable, WTF. Cloud Cuckoo Land.

This isnt a compromise. May is offering what is not in her gift. This is totally ridiculous. They must want to crash out at this stage.

The death throes of a politician hell bent on clinging on to that PM ship at all costs for as long as possible? .....shes like a tardigrade in my mind at this stage.


A hail mary to the end zone?....doubtful they or she thinks this is playing hardball or putting on pressure as the clock runs down at this stage?


They really and truly cant be in cloud cuckoo land can they?............I expect these people to be much more intelligent than I am......

amacca

Scoondal wrote: »

Ridiculous. UK citizens voted to leave EU. Full stop. Nothing to do with this rubbish.
UK will leave EU because ordinary people voted for this. Why do Irish people not accept the democratic decision of UK citizens ? I am really struggling to understand Irish people wanting UK to stay within EU.
Out means out. Is that simple enough ?

They weren't talking about the brexit referendum...they were talking about the 1st referendum on the lisbon treaty which took place here in ireland

Hurrache

Scoondal wrote: »

Ridiculous. UK citizens voted to leave EU. Full stop. Nothing to do with this rubbish.
UK will leave EU because ordinary people voted for this. Why do Irish people not accept the democratic decision of UK citizens ? I am really struggling to understand Irish people wanting UK to stay within EU.
Out means out. Is that simple enough ?

Have you missed the investigative findings of the activities surrounding various leave campaigns?

And the campaign for a second referendum is within the UK, nothing to do with us.

Edit, and as the guys said, they're taking about something different.

prawnsambo

Scoondal wrote: »

This is a Brexit thread.

Yeah. You'd wonder why brexiters keep bringing it up.

kunst nugget

Scoondal wrote: »

Ridiculous. UK citizens voted to leave EU. Full stop. Nothing to do with this rubbish.
UK will leave EU because ordinary people voted for this. Why do Irish people not accept the democratic decision of UK citizens ? I am really struggling to understand Irish people wanting UK to stay within EU.
Out means out. Is that simple enough ?

We were talking about the original Lisbon Treaty referendum. I was trying to get across the point that maybe we, the Irish, aren't an awful lot more nuanced than the UK when it comes to how we vote or how we can be manipulated into voting a certain way.

But then I read a post like that...

amacca

kunst nugget wrote: »

We were talking about the original Lisbon Treaty referendum. I was trying to get across the point that maybe we, the Irish, aren't an awful lot more nuanced than the UK when it comes to how we vote or how we can be manipulated into voting a certain way.

But then I read a post like that...

No shh now, you can only talk about Brexit........not anything relevant to it or anything that might be related in some way or that could illustrate a point you were making :pac::pac:....

Scoondal

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. You'd wonder why brexiters keep bringing it up.

UK is leaving EU because the people voted for that.
Everyone here can talk about anything they want, but UK is leaving EU on 29 March with or without a deal. A general election might delay this outcome by a month or two, ... But UK is leaving EU.

amacca

Anyway..what the hell do you think TM is playing at with offering a concession thats not part of the withdrawal agreement....................

I have to admit I'm confused (about this Brexit issue)

Anthracite

Scoondal wrote: »

Ridiculous. UK citizens voted to leave EU. Full stop. Nothing to do with this rubbish.
UK will leave EU because ordinary people voted for this. Why do Irish people not accept the democratic decision of UK citizens ? I am really struggling to understand Irish people wanting UK to stay within EU.
Out means out. Is that simple enough ?

I wish you would stop banging this drum. Do you have anything else to offer the discussion than these mindless platitudes?

Hurrache

Labour appear to be lining up to support the vote based on May supporting their amendment based on workers rights and conditions.
[url]

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1083141476551401472?s=19[/url]

Thargor

The EU will never accept that in a million years and it completely violates what TM agreed with them but that is the UKs position now, WTF are they doing? This is crazy...

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1083031865735430146

An Claidheamh

Scoondal wrote: »

Ridiculous. UK citizens voted to leave EU....
Out means out. Is that simple enough ?

It's simple enough alright.

Britain can leave the EU.

Good riddance.

However, NI out, all the benefits of the EU and getting other countries to sort your mess out is not going to happen. I believe that is what UK subjects do not understand.

An Claidheamh

Scoondal wrote: »

They can do what they want. But the citizens haved already voted. Out out out.

But really, they're In In In. Just called something else.

Be some craic if Farage makes his political return though before March!

prawnsambo

Thargor wrote: »

The EU will never accept that in a million years and it completely violates what TM agreed with them but that is the UKs position now, WTF are they doing? This is crazy...

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1083031865735430146

It's either smoke and mirrors to get the vote through or it's a genuine belief that they can make amendments after the fact and hope nobody makes a fuss. There's no chance of the latter so it has to be the former.

amacca

Thargor wrote: »

The EU will never accept that in a million years and it completely violates what TM agreed with them but that is the UKs position now, WTF are they doing? This is crazy...

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1083031865735430146

Yes....its confusing the hell out of me.....

is it more playing for time for some reason...its hardly going to put an iota of pressure on the EU or move them in any meaningful way from their stated position

So what appease party members (even though it seems like they should know it just wouldn't fly) to get more time ...then about turn at a more appropriate juncture

kunst nugget

Scoondal wrote: »

This is a Brexit Thread.

And I was relating Brexit and how people voted in the UK to how we voted here in relation to the first Lisbon treaty. This being an Irish forum and all, generally populated by Irish people. It's not really my fault if you are incapable of understanding the point being made.

mickoneill31

Thargor wrote: »

The EU will never accept that in a million years and it completely violates what TM agreed with them but that is the UKs position now, WTF are they doing? This is crazy...

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1083031865735430146

Is that one of these satirical posts. I can't tell what is real and what is a joke anymore with the UK government.
If its real then the government has jumped off the deep end.

Capt'n Midnight

Scoondal wrote: »

They can do what they want. But the citizens haved already voted. Out out out.

*yawn*

And then they voted again and May lost her majority. Because Democracy.
Only 19% support her deal, that's hardly the will of the people now is it ?


Even if she gets her deal past Westminster there's still the problem of getting the new changes past the EU without offering something.

Scoondal

kunst nugget wrote: »

And I was relating Brexit and how people voted in the UK to how we voted here in relation to the first Lisbon treaty. This being an Irish forum and all, generally populated by Irish people. It's not really my fault if you are incapable of understanding the point being made.

You do not realise that in The Republic of Ireland people have numerous referenda every year. In UK a referendum for the people is rare.
So when it happens, the result is very important.
UK and ROI are constitutionally different.
Again, in a rare public vote in UK ... they voted to leave EU. UK citizens are normal people.

Christy42

Thargor wrote: »

The EU will never accept that in a million years and it completely violates what TM agreed with them but that is the UKs position now, WTF are they doing? This is crazy...

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1083031865735430146

Have they lost all reason? You can't make amendments to an agreement without both parties involvement. This is idiotic if it is isn't a wind up. I mean it has to be a wind up right?

Scoondal

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

*yawn*

And then they voted again and May lost her majority. Because Democracy.
Only 19% support her deal, that's hardly the will of the people now is it ?


Even if she gets her deal past Westminster there's still the problem of getting the new changes past the EU without offering something.

May's deal will not be approved. Rightly so. Remainers and Brexiters can not vote for that rubbish that UK spent 21 months "negotiating".
Mrs. May and her government are living in LaLa land.
But EU should not waste any more time with these idiots.
They want out, okay they are out. Simple.

BonnieSituation

Christy42 wrote: »

Have they lost all reason? You can't make amendments to an agreement without both parties involvement. This is idiotic if it is isn't a wind up. I mean it has to be a wind up right?

It's almost like we need some insurance policy or backstop to make sure the UK hold up their side of the WA in case they were to lose all reason and start pulling out of agreements.

I certainly hope Barnier thought of that...

Strazdas

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's either smoke and mirrors to get the vote through or it's a genuine belief that they can make amendments after the fact and hope nobody makes a fuss. There's no chance of the latter so it has to be the former.

The former I would say : May is duplicitous and tells lies at the drop of a hat.