Brexit Discussion Thread VI

DOCARCH

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think that the general Irish population is less or more informed on political matters than we perceive the UK population to be?

I believe Irish are more informed/engaged.

WomanSkirtFan8

J Mysterio wrote: »

Shocking

absolutely. just shows you how brainwashed the all are into believing that Brexit will be 'good' for `britain in the long run. We all know it won't be. And to think that they're supposed to be the future of the UK as well. God help them.


It also shows the dangers of populist politics that, just because it may sound great, it very often in reality doesn't pan out that way. I pitty them.:rolleyes:

WomanSkirtFan8

DOCARCH wrote: »

I believe Irish are more informed/engaged.

agreed. we are and always have been and probably always will be. We've a much better and more informed view of the world thanks to our open-mindedness and curiosity and also good humoured nature. :cool:

CelticRambler

prawnsambo wrote: »

It is quite extraordinary how ill-informed people are. I saw a youngish labour supporter tweeting that they could just make everything in Britain and didn't need imports. It was so off the wall it was hard to respond to. You'd wonder how you can get through an education and come out the other side so ill-equipped for the world.

"Education" - as we understand it in Ireland - is not something provided to many young Brits. When I ran a business in Kent we had a steady stream of work-experience students come through and I used to fire out-of-context general knowledge questions at them to test their mental reflexes (they were aspiring to work in a rapid-response field, dominated by high-achievers). In the beginning, I could not believe how [ignorant|uneducated|uninformed] these 15-16 year olds were (e.g. "Q: what are the seas around Britain?" "A: ... ummm ... the Black Sea ... the Pacific?" :eek: ) Those with a decent education were almost invariably of non-English descent, or went to the local Grammar School.

Perhaps foreshadowing what's ahead for the NHS, much of the senior cycle of second level education (including their exams) and post-secondary education is run by and for the benefit of private enterprise. Starry-eyed teens are sold on the idea of wishy-washy courses that are "equivalent to three A-levels" but that bear no resemblence to anything you'd find on the Leaving Cert. At this very moment I'm in trouble with a family member in England because I dared to ask how one such course differed from what her younger cousins are doing in their spare time in Ireland. Apparently it's because it is!

Listening to interviews of the ordinary man and woman on the subject, that same lack of education, that lack of awareness of a world outside of England, comes across as clearly as it did with my work experience students. I really believe now that the majority have absolutely no idea what being in (or out) of the EU means ... and that's why TM's deal will be defeated and the UK will probably leave with no deal.


Thinking about the random stranger angle, while travelling over the last six months, I've raised "Brexit" as a topic with numerous other random strangers - or they with me. There was only one Brit amongst them (very nice girl, well educated, in the process of being well travelled) and she was the only one to have no opinion on the subject. :cool:

Enzokk

Nody wrote: »

Highly doubtful; Brexiteers are unlikely to be swayed (as it goes against what they believe as "truth") and for the Remainers it contains nothing new. It's a good speech don't get me wrong but it's not going to be have a significant impact because it's said by the wrong person at the wrong time.

I have wondered what the purpose of those talking during the debates are as the parties would invariably vote with their whips even if they don't agree with the policy. We have only recently with regards to Brexit seen MPs vote against their party.

Having thought about it is seems more to me that this is a window for MPs to showcase themselves to voters or the leaders of their party as much as anything. If you are able to capture the chamber with a well written speech and deliver it with passion it bodes well for your prospects of future positions in either the shadow cabinet or the cabinet. In this regard David Lammy has done himself no harm with his passionate speeches when it comes to Brexit. That said he has done well even when the topic has not been Brexit as well.

flutered

MrMusician18 wrote: »

BonnieSituation wrote: »

And some of us get criticised for having the temerity to say that English people are less engaged politically than Irish people?

There are few people going to talk politics with a random stranger outside the context of an interview.

When you look at equally controversial topics here like abortion, you'd only ever get a few bland sentences from the average Joe before the conversation would end.

When you surround yourself with the politically engaged it gives the false impression that everyone is. Look at how many voted for Casey on the back of one remark.

then look at how many have been on the recieving end of theose that one remark was about

WomanSkirtFan8

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think that the general Irish population is less or more informed on political matters than we perceive the UK population to be?

i'd say we're much more well-educated and well-informed.

An Ciarraioch

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think that the general Irish population is less or more informed on political matters than we perceive the UK population to be?

We are at least better informed on UK politics than vice -versa.

Tell me how

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

We are at least better informed on UK politics than vice -versa.

There's no question about that. They are as educated on the Irish political system as we are about the Icelandic one.

prawnsambo

Tell me how wrote: »

There's no question about that. They are as educated on the Irish political system as we are about the Icelandic one.

Well I do know that they gave a Pirate party. I mean what's not to love about a political system that has one of those?

Strazdas

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think that the general Irish population is less or more informed on political matters than we perceive the UK population to be?

Yes, more informed for certain. A strong tradition for interest in politics and current affairs and also multiple big issue referendums in the last ten years alongside the regular general elections (and two presidential elections).

blanch152

DOCARCH wrote: »

I believe Irish are more informed/engaged.

A huge proportion of the Irish population got suckered by the "we won't pay twice" populist anti-water charges brigade. Thankfully, they didn't fully succeed but it demonstrates that the Irish are just as vulnerable to an ill-informed populist rant as anyone else.

Russman

lawred2 wrote: »

Why would you expect them to be any more informed than their older country folk?

Well I would have expected that they’ve been more recently in the education system than their older folk and might be better informed as a result or at least more current.
I would also (in very general terms) have expected them to be more involved in modern communications, social media etc etc and as a result be more exposed to the world and world views.

demfad

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well I do know that they gave a Pirate party. I mean what's not to love about a political system that has one of those?

Amateurs! Sligo's Flukey O'Gorman would beat the Pirates night and day with his legendary 'All Night' Party. Most serious joke candidate this or any country has ever seen.

amacca

Russman wrote: »

Well I would have expected that they’ve been more recently in the education system than their older folk and might be better informed as a result or at least more current.
I would also (in very general terms) have expected them to be more involved in modern communications, social media etc etc and as a result be more exposed to the world and world views.

The education system over there ain't that great.

blanch152

Russman wrote: »

Well I would have expected that they’ve been more recently in the education system than their older folk and might be better informed as a result or at least more current.
I would also (in very general terms) have expected them to be more involved in modern communications, social media etc etc and as a result be more exposed to the world and world views.

If they are more exposed to social media, then they are more exposed to fake news.

Imreoir2

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't know if it's this. Ireland's media isn't dominated by a few oligarchs who have been spreading anti-EU propaganda for decades.

Irelands media is well on the way to being dominated by an oligarch, though I am not sure if Mr O'Brien has any problem with the EU.

Anthracite

blanch152 wrote: »

A huge proportion of the Irish population got suckered by the "we won't pay twice" populist anti-water charges brigade. Thankfully, they didn't fully succeed but it demonstrates that the Irish are just as vulnerable to an ill-informed populist rant as anyone else.

Ironic when the protest's most militant members likely hadn't even paid once.

MrMusician18

flutered wrote: »

then look at how many have been on the recieving end of theose that one remark was about

Ok then. The Irish electorate has rejected European treaties twice in the last 20 years. Remind me for the reasons again.. oh yeah it was BS about abortion and neutrality.


I don't know where this misplaced belief that we are above being manipulated has come from? Arrogance?

Imreoir2

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Ok then. The Irish electorate has rejected European treaties twice in the last 20 years. Remind me for the reasons again.. oh yeah it was BS about abortion and neutrality.


I don't know where this misplaced belief that we are above being manipulated has come from? Arrogance?

I think we are above being manipulated in the way the British have been, much as the British were above being manipulated in the way the Germans were in the 1930's. German Fascist propoganda worked in the German context, when Mosley tried to use the same tricks in Britain, they fell flat. Brexiteer propoganda works in the UK context, when the Irexit crowd tries the same guff here it does not stick.

This does not mean that the Irish population is above being manipulated by propoganda, any population can be. It just would have to suit the Irish context, and the Brexit stuff is not a good fit with where we are and how we see ourselves.

Christy42

prawnsambo wrote: »

Russman wrote: »

I watched that C4 news segment and was shocked at how little they seemed to "get" what was coming down the line at them if/when they leave. There was one guy in particular going on and on about making their own trade deals with the world, and nobody picked him up on a) what the rest of the world might want to buy from Britain and b) why they would buy it when they can get it from the EU already.
TBH I'm still struggling a little to believe they can be that misinformed/uninformed over there. Unless the dangers are, in fact, overstated by everyone else, which is unlikely - nobody has a reason to do that.

It is quite extraordinary how ill-informed people are. I saw a youngish labour supporter tweeting that they could just make everything in Britain and didn't need imports. It was so off the wall it was hard to respond to. You'd wonder how you can get through an education and come out the other side so ill-equipped for the world.

I never would have expected Dev to be reincarnated as an English lad!

Wouldn't have worked for us and won't work for them. Well you could manage a hippy colony style of living but not much more than that.

MrMusician18

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I think we are above being manipulated in the way the British have been, much as the British were above being manipulated in the way the Germans were in the 1930's. German Fascist propoganda worked in the German context, when Mosley tried to use the same tricks in Britain, they fell flat. Brexiteer propoganda works in the UK context, when the Irexit crowd tries the same guff here it does not stick.

This does not mean that the Irish population is above being manipulated by propoganda, any population can be. It just would have to suit the Irish context, and the Brexit stuff is not a good fit with where we are and how we see ourselves.

Irexit doesn't stick because it hasn't found a surface to stick to. The entire media is centre left and presents these people as a collection of loons and cranks.

It just needs an issue to stick to and a credible media outlet to push it. We will then find that the Irish bull**** o meter isn't as good as many here think.

bilston

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

i'd say we're much more well-educated and well-informed.

You should all pat yourselves on the back!

Imreoir2

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Irexit doesn't stick because it hasn't found a surface to stick to. The entire media is centre left and presents these people as a collection of loons and cranks.

It just needs an issue to stick to and a credible media outlet to push it. We will then find that the Irish bull**** o meter isn't as good as many here think.

I don't think it is quite so simple as that. Irexit has not found a surface to stick to because it is not compatible with the Irish context. In Britain it is a sicky ideology, in Ireland, it is not.

Anthracite

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The entire media is centre left and presents these people as a collection of loons and cranks.

Well they present themselves as a collection of loons and cranks.

Capt'n Midnight

Just in case anyone was still confused about the reasons for Brexit.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-sterling/sterling-lifted-by-report-that-britain-will-delay-brexit-date-idUKKCN1P5128

“I can see a scenario where we fall to $1.10 and I can easily see a scenario when we move to $1.45,” said Fahad Kamal, chief market strategist at Kleinwort Hambros.

Someone is going to make a killing on the markets. But it won't be your average punter.

Strazdas

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I don't think it is quite so simple as that. Irexit has not found a surface to stick to because it is not compatible with the Irish context. In Britain it is a sicky ideology, in Ireland, it is not.

Ireland is a country of 5m and doesn't have its own currency. Irexit would be an economic catastrophe.

One of the main reasons Brexit was voted for is that the British public thought the UK, as a nation of 65m people and with its own currency, was a global superpower which doesn't even need the EU.

Thargor

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

i'd say we're much more well-educated and well-informed.

In this thread we are but I could easily find plenty of "Whats a Brexit?" types among the people I work with.

Roanmore

If the UK leave without any deal do they lose protection over their foodstuffs like Cornish Pasties, etc?

Bit cynical

Enzokk wrote: »

Couple of points, firstly if we are to say that Corbyn is very much a Brexiteer when he is not trying to stop Brexit but voted for it I would say the same is true of May. I believe she is as cynical as any politician out there and the same as Boris Johnson she thought the best avenue for her career was to back remaining in the EU and thus campaigned that way. Had she thought backing Leave would enhance her career she would have done so, if you look at her actions as PM and how she has tried to bend and sometimes break the rules to stay in power.

I think in fairness to May, she has agreed to a deal that is almost tailor made for Ireland. The late concessions she obtained from the EU make the deal even better for Ireland than had she not obtained them. In some respects, if it passes Parliamentary scrutiny, there is actually more assurance of an open border with the North of this island than if there was no Brexit.

She has also done her bit in promoting the deal to the UK Parliament by saying that not voting for the deal will put Brexit in danger.

The directly elected members of the UK Parliament now need to look at the deal very closely and make sure that voting for it is the best for their constituents and the UK.