Brexit Discussion Thread VI

EdgeCase · 14-01-2019 7:35pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

But leo has the support of the EU and they won't make us put up borders, Leo said so. Leo wouldn't lie to us, would he?

That's always been one of the consequences of a no deal Brexit. Only Westminster agreeing something sane can avoid that.

We know this for the last two years.

The EU made several compromise proposals, all of which the UK rejected out of hand, preferring the idea of believing that it'll somehow be fudged.

The UK is withdrawing from a massive set of agreements known as the EU. The EU is not withdrawing from the UK nor is Ireland making the UK do anything.

This is entirely in the gift of Westminster and the British Government and people. If they want to undermine NI. That's their choice. They need to stop this childish blaming it on everyone else and accept that this is what they voted for.

The facts about NI were laid out over and over by anyone who knew anything about it and people did not listen and look where we are now!

prawnsambo · 14-01-2019 7:38pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

That's always been one of the consequences of a no deal Brexit. Only Westminster agreeing something sane can avoid that.

We know this for the last two years.

The EU made several compromise proposals, all of which the UK rejected out of hand, preferring the idea of believing that it'll somehow be fudged.

The fantasists are still alive and kicking. I heard Marcus Fysh on the radio saying that he believed the EU would blink at the last minute on the backstop. That's what you're dealing with.

judeboy101 · 14-01-2019 7:38pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

That's always been one of the consequences of a no deal Brexit. Only Westminster agreeing something sane can avoid that.

We know this for the last two years.

The EU made several compromise proposals, all of which the UK rejected out of hand, preferring the idea of believing that it'll somehow be fudged.

You might want to tell leo

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/21/ireland-has-no-plans-in-place-for-hard-border-after-brexit-varadkar?CMP=share_btn_link

Hurrache · 14-01-2019 7:40pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

You might want to tell leo

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/21/ireland-has-no-plans-in-place-for-hard-border-after-brexit-varadkar?CMP=share_btn_link

He never said there won't be border checks in that article?

prawnsambo · 14-01-2019 7:41pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

You might want to tell leo

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/21/ireland-has-no-plans-in-place-for-hard-border-after-brexit-varadkar?CMP=share_btn_link

Did you actually read this? Because he's not saying what you seem to be implying. But then again, you're not very clear in what you're saying either. Perhaps you might want to edit your post.

EdgeCase · 14-01-2019 7:41pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

You might want to tell leo

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/21/ireland-has-no-plans-in-place-for-hard-border-after-brexit-varadkar?CMP=share_btn_link

We’re not making plans for a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. Our focus is entirely on getting an agreement that ensures that doesn’t happen.

That's a statement of hopeful optimism. It's not a statement of hard lines, nor is it saying that it won't happen.

They are clearly concerned that if they start to publicly accept that a hard border is on the agenda that the UK will just start to factor that in to their position and the EU will also not be worried about it.

The fact that they're saying the don't want one and being very firm on that is keeping avoiding that scenario in the agenda.

To be fair to the Irish Government and Varadkar they've been very consistent, calm, concise and have steadfastly stood behind the Good Friday Agreement to which they are a signatory.

I'm getting really fed up with this blame everything on everyone else and accept no responsibility for the consequences of decisions mentality.
It's pathetic tabloid nonsense.

If you want to leave the EU without any agreement - there are serious practical consequences to that. You can't vote or wish those away. Nor can you bury your head in the sand and blame everyone else.

ancapailldorcha · 14-01-2019 7:47pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

You might want to tell leo

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/21/ireland-has-no-plans-in-place-for-hard-border-after-brexit-varadkar?CMP=share_btn_link

No more one-liners please.

ThePanjandrum · 14-01-2019 7:51pm

SNIP. There's a mod warning above. No more condescending quips please.

prawnsambo · 14-01-2019 8:38pm

I find it bizarre that no-deal is being proposed as a genuine alternative. It is hyper inflation in a bottle. One that opens on the 30th March and doesn't get properly closed again for decades. The lasting effects of which go far beyond inflation. The analogy of a gun to the head isn't far off except that when it's fired, it doesn't kill the victim, but leaves them in a vegetative state.

Headshot · 14-01-2019 8:41pm

Im watching Politics live on BBC and WTO comes into play again by those Brexiteers, why the **** do BBC never have any economic experts on the panel and bring home some home truths

ancapailldorcha · 14-01-2019 8:45pm

Headshot wrote: »

Im watching Politics live on BBC and WTO comes into play again by those Brexiteers, why the **** do BBC never have any economic experts on the panel and bring home some home truths

The glib answer is that people are fed up of experts.

Seriously though, I think it's the fact that they know that the Tories can visit serious damage upon them if they act as anything other than loyal cheerleaders.

funkey_monkey · 14-01-2019 8:46pm

Headshot wrote: »

Im watching Politics live on BBC and WTO comes into play again by those Brexiteers, why the **** do BBC never have any economic experts on the panel and bring home some home truths

Crispin seems to think he can leave on 29th with zero tariffs with EU and no friction at the ports.
Who to believe for the voters?

Berserker · 14-01-2019 9:14pm

eire4 wrote: »

I am no fan Varadkar but it is and has been very clear all along. If there is no deal upon their exit from the EU there will be a border. The fault for that lies 100% with the British and not either the EU nor Varadkar.

Are you talking about a physical 'hard' border? The border that's in place at the moment could remain if he wants any old border. The UK isn't calling for a hard border even with a no deal exit. Not sure how you can blame them but I'm sure you'll find a way. If Leo wants a hard border then he's going to have to build one. Changing his tune from the days of wanting no hard border on the island though. The EU must have had a word with him and he is softening up the Irish people for the bill that's coming their way.

An Ciarraioch · 14-01-2019 9:17pm

Berserker wrote: »

Are you talking about a physical 'hard' border? The border that's in place at the moment could remain if he wants any old border. The UK isn't calling for a hard border even with a no deal exit. If Leo want that there is going to be a hard border in the event of a no-deal exit then he's going to have to build one.

It has been UK membership of the SM and CU that has maintained a soft Border, so no, it couldn't remain.

Hurrache · 14-01-2019 9:17pm

Berserker wrote: »

Are you talking about a physical 'hard' border? The border that's in place at the moment could remain if he wants any old border. The UK isn't calling for a hard border even with a no deal exit. Not sure how you can blame them but I'm sure you'll find a way. If Leo wants a hard border then he's going to have to build one. Changing his tune from the days of wanting no hard border on the island though. The EU must have had a word with him and he is softening up the Irish people for the bill that's coming their way.

And how will that adhere to Britain's red lines? Brexiteers are very fond of throwing out the statement that they won't put up a border without paying any attention to the fact that anyone from EU can then walk into their country.

Your post is completely disingenuous.

cml387 · 14-01-2019 9:20pm

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Crispin seems to think he can leave on 29th with zero tariffs with EU and no friction at the ports.
Who to believe for the voters?

I would guess that most people in the UK who are not politically savvy would say "Let's just leave, at least we won't have to hear all this Brexit nonsense any more"

They would think, what's the worst that can happen? This is England after all? We'll muddle through as we always do.

On April 1st (ironically) they will see that the sky hasn't fallen, the trains will run, the banks will be open.

Only gradually will it dawn. In summer, when they're on holidays and standing in the non - EU queue for passports.Their brother in law will be on short time from his factory.Strange shortages in the shops.

lawred2 · 14-01-2019 9:20pm

Berserker wrote: »

Are you talking about a physical 'hard' border? The border that's in place at the moment could remain if he wants any old border. The UK isn't calling for a hard border even with a no deal exit. Not sure how you can blame them but I'm sure you'll find a way. If Leo wants a hard border then he's going to have to build one. Changing his tune from the days of wanting no hard border on the island though. The EU must have had a word with him and he is softening up the Irish people for the bill that's coming their way.

Reads like you're in your element anyway.. sad to see that there are still people on hand to gleefully welcome the prospect of the entrenched divisions of old returning.

Calina · 14-01-2019 9:22pm

Berserker wrote: »

Are you talking about a physical 'hard' border? The border that's in place at the moment could remain if he wants any old border. The UK isn't calling for a hard border even with a no deal exit. Not sure how you can blame them but I'm sure you'll find a way. If Leo wants a hard border then he's going to have to build one. Changing his tune from the days of wanting no hard border on the island though. The EU must have had a word with him and he is softening up the Irish people for the bill that's coming their way.

The UK is either being disingenuous or dishonest about the border in the event of a no deal Brexit. If they do not enforce in NI they cannot enforce anywhere else.

Hard border is caused by Brexit. No amount of screaming by the UK that they do not want one will change the fact that they caused one if it ensues.

Berserker · 14-01-2019 9:27pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

It has been UK membership of the SM and CU that has maintained a soft Border, so no, it couldn't remain.

If the EU and Leo want that then so be it. It's not the wish of the UK government or the people of NI.

Beechwoodspark · 14-01-2019 9:27pm

Calina wrote: »

The UK is either being disingenuous or dishonest about the border in the event of a no deal Brexit. If they do not enforce in NI they cannot enforce anywhere else.

Hard border is caused by Brexit. No amount of screaming by the UK that they do not want one will change the fact that they caused one if it ensues.

Some in The Uk are akin to the child sticking his fingers in his ears and screaming whenever anyone points out reality.

If there is a no deal Brexit the UK will be Compelled to set up a hard border by the WTO.

Hence the requirement for the backstop.

Calina · 14-01-2019 9:30pm

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Some in The Uk are akin to the child sticking his fingers in his ears and screaming whenever anyone points out reality.

If there is a no deal Brexit the UK will be Compelled to set up a hard border by the WTO.

Hence the requirement for the backstop.

Backstop is irrelevant if Brexit happens without the withdrawal agreement.

cml387 · 14-01-2019 9:30pm

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Some in The Uk are akin to the child sticking his fingers in his ears and screaming whenever anyone points out reality.

If there is a no deal Brexit the UK will be Compelled to set up a hard border by the WTO.

Hence the requirement for the backstop.

Em, no.

The EU will demand that the NI border is not used as a path for entry of non-EU approved goods to be brought into the EU.

The UK has no interest in securing the border. This seems to have been forgotten by a lot of people.

lawred2 · 14-01-2019 9:30pm

Berserker wrote: »

If the EU and Leo want that then so be it. It's not the wish of the UK government or the people of NI.

Well except for rejecting every deal possible to achieve such a situation

If it is their wish, then why are they about to reject the WA in favour of a no deal Brexit.

Your position is so utterly disingenuous as to be nothing but a self serving and grotesque distortion of reality..

Berserker · 14-01-2019 9:31pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Reads like you're in your element anyway.. sad to see that there are still people on hand to gleefully welcome the prospect of the entrenched divisions of old returning.

I've called this since day one. Take a look back at conversation between Francie B. and I. This was always going to be the end game, i.e. a hard border paid for by the Irish. I hope and believe that the people of NI are smart enough to see through the bs being peddled by Leo & the EU. Nobody in the UK is calling for a hard border. This narrative has come from the EU and the Irish government is the messenger.

RobMc59 · 14-01-2019 9:32pm

Calina wrote: »

The UK is either being disingenuous or dishonest about the border in the event of a no deal Brexit. If they do not enforce in NI they cannot enforce anywhere else.

Hard border is caused by Brexit. No amount of screaming by the UK that they do not want one will change the fact that they caused one if it ensues.

Apart from the sea there is no other border to enforce apart from NI and the Republic and if Ireland and the UK have said they will not have a hard border then is`nt that believable?Why would anyone want to go back to the bad times?
Whether it`s popular to say it or not there is a unique,special relationship between Britain and Ireland which does`nt exist with any other nations.

Hurrache · 14-01-2019 9:32pm

Berserker wrote: »

It's not the wish of the UK government

It is, they wanted to take back control of their borders and leave the various customs unions

Your posts are only deluding yourself.

cml387 wrote: »

The UK has no interest in securing the border. This seems to have been forgotten by a lot of people.

Take back control...

lawred2 · 14-01-2019 9:32pm

cml387 wrote: »

Em, no.

The EU will demand that the NI border is not used as a path for entry of non-EU approved goods to be brought into the EU.

The UK has no interest in securing the border. This seems to have been forgotten by a lot of people.

It has an interest in uncontrolled inward migration no? Ireland is not going to introduce north bound emigration checks..

Berserker · 14-01-2019 9:35pm

Hurrache wrote: »

It is, they wanted to take back control of their borders and leave the various customs unions

Your posts are only deluding yourself.

Take back control...

Where have they said they wanted a border on the island? The British Isles have special agreements in place regarding the movement of people, as we all know.

Hurrache · 14-01-2019 9:35pm

Berserker wrote: »

Nobody in the UK is calling for a hard border. This narrative has come from the EU and the Irish government is the messenger.

3rd bullet point.

Berserker wrote: »

The British Isles have special agreements in place regarding the movement of people, as we all know.

You're confusing your agreements. How will CTA stop all those pesky Europeans sneaking in?

Berserker · 14-01-2019 9:36pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Well except for rejecting every deal possible to achieve such a situation

If it is their wish, then why are they about to reject the WA in favour of a no deal Brexit.

Your position is so utterly disingenuous as to be nothing but a self serving and grotesque distortion of reality..

By not accepting sh1t deals?? How dare they!!!! Show me where the UK has said that they want a hard border on the island? Your Irish republican bias is trying to generate a situation that simply doesn't exist.

Brexit Discussion Thread VI

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