Brexit Discussion Thread VI

Topgear on Dave

CelticRambler wrote: »

Yeah. It's a real shame the RoI, France, Spain, Belgium & NL have to work together, with nothing to offer those bigger faster growing countries in future trade deals, other than access to a single market of 500.000.000 people ... :rolleyes:

Nothing except an unconditional surrender from the EU will be acceptable to these people.

Tell me how

Christy42 wrote: »

Yeah the headline was a flat out lie by Reuters. Pity as I held them in high regard.

That has been one area in which virtually no media outlet or journalist or presenter has managed to avoid. Either outwardly displaying a leaning towards a particular course of action or being accused of doing so.

BBC, Sky, Reuters, C4, ITV, and all the individual political heavyweights, Bulton, Marr, Neil, Keunnesberg, Snow, Adler etc.

We all think Tony Connelly is one of the best out there but I suspect he too is seen as being biased by some.

CelticRambler

Hurrache wrote: »

Same as myself. I fell down in a couple of the photograph questions, I hope I'm never asked to pick a criminal from a police line up. I knew who did/said it, couldn't pick then out if standing in front of me.

Ditto. 11/15, fell down on all but one of the facial recognition tests! The price one pays for not having a TV, I suppose. Mind you, I probably recognise more of those British characters than their French counterparts, who have more influence on my daily life. But as I can't vote for them either, it probably doesn't matter either way. Looking forward to casting my EU vote in May, though! :cool:

Hurrache

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Nothing except an unconditional surrender from the EU will be acceptable to these people.

Sammy Wilson yesterday said

We fought a terrorist campaign to stay part of the United Kingdom and we are not going to allow bureaucrats in Brussels to separate us from the rest of the United Kingdom

It can be taken in two ways, first is that he's referring to their paramilitary arm, or that they fought the IRA.

Either way, they're archaic.

Thomas_IV

The meaninful vote on the meaningful day, it's history in the making today as the f*** Brexit Brits (including Comrade Corbyn) will just jump off the cliff by voting down the deal which in its result will make it more likely that the UK is exiting the EU without a deal than as (like some presume) to remain in the EU. This will open the path towards an IndyRef2 in Scotland and, thanks to the stupid DUP, to a UI.

Whether some in the Republic like it or not, one day it'll come to that cos the Scots neither want nor can afford to take the stupid (DUP) Norn-Ireland Unionists in (this was never a matter to be even considered by Scotland anyway, but I presume that some Ulster Scots Unionists might have some similar wet dreams like the many Brexiters anticipate the 'promised land' arising on the horizon).

This will only be a matter of time and by that I mean a couple of years.

Akrasia

Tell me how wrote: »

The justification of a second referendum is just too difficult, it is too easy for Brexiteers to say that May was always a remainer, she negotiated an EU friendly deal and now wants to sideswipe the democratic vote to leave.

If they leave, change government, have issues and then want to come back, at least democracy would be seen to have been upheld.

But that can't happen overnight and the potential trouble in the years after the leave for them, us, and the eU project will influence if they do ever want to return.

Trying to please the hard brexiteers is a mugs game. If they leave, and have issues, those exact same people will still be crowing about how the EU are sabotaging an independent Britain. They're going to play the victim card even as you give them everything they ever asked for.

The brexiteers have been lying the whole way through the process and they've been ducking any responsibility to come up with any meaningful plan for the last 3 years. The brexiteers could have challenged for the tory leadership but they didn't. May didn't even have to be elected, she won by default. The brexiteers had a chance to get May out in her vote of no confidence, they failed then too, there were hardcore brexiteers appointed to lead the EU negotiations and they failed at getting any concessions and then resigned because they're more comfortable hurling from the ditch than actually implementing any plan.

Trying to pander to these people is pointless, they will never be happy, and it is also extremely damaging because their ideas are intellectually bankrupt and their proposals are a one way trip to destitution and the ultimate breakup of the UK

ancapailldorcha

Low quality posts deleted.

Hurrache

Who'd have thought The Sun would be running with factual inaccuracies. Ah heck, call it for what they are, lies.

https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1085115718532808704

https://twitter.com/NvOndarza/status/1085107068439277569

joe40

Is there a chance that May might resign this evening if the expected heavy defeat comes to pass, or is this vote just part of the theatrics.
I don't think she will but it will it not be unprecedented territory for a PM to continue after such a defeat. Maybe it has happened it the past I don't know

Tell me how

joe40 wrote: »

Is there a chance that May might resign this evening if the expected heavy defeat comes to pass, or is this vote just part of the theatrics.
I don't think she will but it will it not be unprecedented territory for a PM to continue after such a defeat. Maybe it has happened it the past I don't know

Hasn't happened in the past because there will never have been a defeat like it in the past over such a momentus topic.

I think she will stay, she will be accused of 'clinging' to power but I'm willing to giver her credit to suggest that she knows that there is no one else any more capable than her in the picture.

Cameron got abuse for leaving quickly. If she goes, she will get abuse, if she stays, she will get abuse.
I suspect she might force Labours hand to call a motion of No confidence, just to defeat them and put them back in their box in terms of a GE.

Thomas_IV

joe40 wrote: »

Is there a chance that May might resign this evening if the expected heavy defeat comes to pass, or is this vote just part of the theatrics.
I don't think she will but it will it not be unprecedented territory for a PM to continue after such a defeat. Maybe it has happened it the past I don't know

I think that we'll have to wait for another three days until the Corbynistas in the Commons will stage the no-confidence vote in the UK govt in the Commons when she fails to submit that requested (demanded more like) 'Plan B' for Brexit.

After all these years following this self-inflicted Brexit-Brit-Madness, I am somewhat fed up with this that I have now reached the point where I don't give a fiddlers anymore on what they vote for and how many will vote for the no-deal Brexit cos this was their plan all along anyway. I just still pity the Remainers in the UK cos these Brexiteers have really ruined their future when the deal is voted down this night.

demfad

Tell me how wrote: »

Questions for Nigel Farage (if you're reading Ivan. )

How come Brexit has not been as easy to deliver as you said it would be?
Were you aware the Leave campaign was overspending during the referendum campaign?
Do you still think there should be a second referendum (as he said previously on Andrew Marr show)?
What do you think should happen if the deal is rejected this evening?

Is it true that you have been interviewed twice by Robert Mueller and are a subject (probable target) of his investigation?

Did you transfer data to/from Julian Assange via thumb drive as reported in US congressional testimony?

Did you illegally organise the use of Cambridge Analytica in Brexit?

Were you aware and part of the conspiracy between Cambridge Analytica and the Internet Research Agency (St Petersburg) to coordinate social media campaigns in Brexit and the 2016 US elections?

Why were you working on Calexit (until the CEO absconded to Russia) which was another Russian operation to try and secede California from the USA?

Were you involved in organising the transfer of up to £8m of laundered funding from Russia via AAron Banks to two Leave campaigns?

Is your European Parliamentary group the EFDD a front for Russian undermining of the EU?

Was the EFDD funded by laundered money from the EU Passports for Oligarchs scheme in Malta?

Did you travel to Lithuania to organise the circulation of propaganda against an anti-Putin Lithuanian President, which was translated by Russia and delivered to every MEPs pigeon hold by your closest staffer Kevin Ellul Bonici and three other Russian agents?

Why was Ellul Bonici printing from the Russian embassy in Brussels (and why did Comms director Hermann Kelly of Irexit allow this?)
Why does Ellul Bonnici have an RT.com account to upload your Videos on YouTube?

Did you concede defeat 52:48 for remain on referendum night knowing a poll told you the true result so that Crispin Odley and other backers of Brexit could make a fortune (he made £200m +) on the sharp rise and then absolute crash of sterling in the 2 hours after the result?

etc.? etc.?

Are you in fact an asset/agent for the Russian State?

Tell me how

Akrasia wrote: »

Trying to please the hard brexiteers is a mugs game. If they leave, and have issues, those exact same people will still be crowing about how the EU are sabotaging an independent Britain. They're going to play the victim card even as you give them everything they ever asked for.

The brexiteers have been lying the whole way through the process and they've been ducking any responsibility to come up with any meaningful plan for the last 3 years. The brexiteers could have challenged for the tory leadership but they didn't. May didn't even have to be elected, she won by default. The brexiteers had a chance to get May out in her vote of no confidence, they failed then too, there were hardcore brexiteers appointed to lead the EU negotiations and they failed at getting any concessions and then resigned because they're more comfortable hurling from the ditch than actually implementing any plan.

Trying to pander to these people is pointless, they will never be happy, and it is also extremely damaging because their ideas are intellectually bankrupt and their proposals are a one way trip to destitution and the ultimate breakup of the UK

All of this is true. But, those same Brexiteers have manipulated the country in to this position.

While I think Brexit not happening would be best, the implication of not being seen to follow through on a democratic referendum result will have implications should it happen.

murphaph

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

David Davis: We will go back to them with an offer of a free trade deal, we will be in a strong position. "Canada +++" etc etc etc


"A brighter and better future"

Insanity. Such a deal would guarantee a hard regulatory CV and customs border. EU says that can't be in Ireland. Back to square one.

British politics needs a reboot.

Berserker

Thomas_IV wrote: »

This will open the path towards an IndyRef2 in Scotland and, thanks to the stupid DUP, to a UI.

It won't. One of the main concerns that voters had in the last referendum was the position that an independent Scotland would have in the EU. If an 'IndyRef2' happens Scotland will have to apply for membership and serve their time. No chance that the Scots will vote for independence under those terms. A second referendum is a complete waste of money and time. I know people who votes Yes last time in that election and they won't be doing that again. The UK is leaving the EU at the end of March on a no-deal basis. Nothing big to worry about here. I'm sure the EU will give us plenty of assistance if times get tough!

Thomas_IV wrote: »

Whether some in the Republic like it or not, one day it'll come to that cos the Scots neither want nor can afford to take the stupid (DUP) Norn-Ireland Unionists in (this was never a matter to be even considered by Scotland anyway, but I presume that some Ulster Scots Unionists might have some similar wet dreams like the many Brexiters anticipate the 'promised land' arising on the horizon).

This will only be a matter of time and by that I mean a couple of years.

What are you talking about here? Is this some UI nonsense? Laughable to suggest that the RoI could ever afford one. Can't even afford to balance the books as is.

lawred2

Thomas_IV wrote: »

The meaninful vote on the meaningful day, it's history in the making today as the f*** Brexit Brits (including Comrade Corbyn) will just jump off the cliff by voting down the deal which in its result will make it more likely that the UK is exiting the EU without a deal than as (like some presume) to remain in the EU. This will open the path towards an IndyRef2 in Scotland and, thanks to the stupid DUP, to a UI.

Whether some in the Republic like it or not, one day it'll come to that cos the Scots neither want nor can afford to take the stupid (DUP) Norn-Ireland Unionists in (this was never a matter to be even considered by Scotland anyway, but I presume that some Ulster Scots Unionists might have some similar wet dreams like the many Brexiters anticipate the 'promised land' arising on the horizon).

This will only be a matter of time and by that I mean a couple of years.

why would Scotland be taking in people from Northern Ireland?

Ulster Scots they may identify as but they are not some nomadic tribe.

Some uber British flag waving types might struggle with a UI and see fit to relocate to Hull or Wigan but they'll be in the minority

Akrasia

joe40 wrote: »

Is there a chance that May might resign this evening if the expected heavy defeat comes to pass, or is this vote just part of the theatrics.
I don't think she will but it will it not be unprecedented territory for a PM to continue after such a defeat. Maybe it has happened it the past I don't know

Theresa May won't resign, When Corbyn calls the vote of no confidence, the parliament will vote against it.

The brexiteers will happily say in public that the government are incapable of negotiating a good deal, while supporting them in a no confidence motion. And this is the world of UK politics

lawred2

Akrasia wrote: »

Theresa May won't resign, When Corbyn calls the vote of no confidence, the parliament will vote against it.

The brexiteers will happily say in public that the government are incapable of negotiating a good deal, while supporting them in a no confidence motion. And this is the world of UK politics

more deranged parliament behaviour

trash the PM's deal - her single biggest deliverable as PM but still vote confidence in her

cuckoo

Akrasia

demfad wrote: »

Is it true that you have been interviewed twice by Robert Mueller and are a subject (probable target) of his investigation?

Did you transfer data to/from Julian Assange via thumb drive as reported in US congressional testimony?

Did you illegally organise the use of Cambridge Analytica in Brexit?

Were you aware and part of the conspiracy between Cambridge Analytica and the Internet Research Agency (St Petersburg) to coordinate social media campaigns in Brexit and the 2016 US elections?

Why were you working on Calexit (until the CEO absconded to Russia) which was another Russian operation to try and secede California from the USA?

Were you involved in organising the transfer of up to £8m of laundered funding from Russia via AAron Banks to two Leave campaigns?

Is your European Parliamentary group the EFDD a front for Russian undermining of the EU?

Was the EFDD funded by laundered money from the EU Passports for Oligarchs scheme in Malta?

Did you travel to Lithuania to organise the circulation of propaganda against an anti-Putin Lithuanian President, which was translated by Russia and delivered to every MEPs pigeon hold by your closest staffer Kevin Ellul Bonici and three other Russian agents?

Why was Ellul Bonici printing from the Russian embassy in Brussels (and why did Comms director Hermann Kelly of Irexit allow this?)
Why does Ellul Bonnici have an RT.com account to upload your Videos on YouTube?

Did you concede defeat 52:48 for remain on referendum night knowing a poll told you the true result so that Crispin Odley and other backers of Brexit could make a fortune (he made £200m +) on the sharp rise and then absolute crash of sterling in the 2 hours after the result?

etc.? etc.?

Are you in fact an asset/agent for the Russian State?

Any chance you could email this list of questions to the Newstalk Producers of his show?

thehardshoulder@newstalk.com

In fact, maybe lots of people should email these questions or versions of them so we can have some chance that Farage will be given the welcome he so richly deserves

Berserker

Akrasia wrote: »

Theresa May won't resign, When Corbyn calls the vote of no confidence, the parliament will vote against it.

May will stay put until April when Brexit kicks in. If an extension is granted, she'll hold of for that period.

Akrasia

Tell me how wrote: »

All of this is true. But, those same Brexiteers have manipulated the country in to this position.

While I think Brexit not happening would be best, the implication of not being seen to follow through on a democratic referendum result will have implications should it happen.

Democratic results can be superceeded by another vote.

The democratic will of the UK population to leave the EU can be replaced by another vote where they democratically decide to not leave the EU.

There have been a lot of changes since that first vote. A lot has changed and there is an awful lot more information now than there was in the past.

A vote now will be a vote based on concrete proposals, compared to the last vote on aspiration and wishful thinking.

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

That will put the EU in a very difficult spot. Opt for a time limit, on a futire deal they all agree will eventually be done, or deal with a crash out, and a hard border.

No, it won't put the EU anywhere new. The EU position has been, to coin a phrase, very clear throughout. They will simply tell May No, go back to Westminster and get the votes for the deal we already made. Or don't - but there will be no extensions for this nonsense, so you crash out in weeks.

NIMAN

Love the big yellow bus driving up and down past Westminster, with BOLLOCKS TO BREXIT written on the side.

lawred2

Tell me how wrote: »

All of this is true. But, those same Brexiteers have manipulated the country in to this position.

While I think Brexit not happening would be best, the implication of not being seen to follow through on a democratic referendum result will have implications should it happen.

implications like these?

a devalued pound?
reduced living standards?
restrictions on movement?
barriers to trade?
lost economic growth?

LuckyLloyd

Akrasia wrote: »

Any chance you could email this list of questions to the Newstalk Producers of his show?

thehardshoulder@newstalk.com

In fact, maybe lots of people should email these questions or versions of them so we can have some chance that Farage will be given the welcome he so richly deserves

I think these are the better ones, in that they are easier for a talk show host to grasp and explain:

Is it true that you have been interviewed twice by Robert Mueller and are a subject (probable target) of his investigation?

Did you transfer data to/from Julian Assange via thumb drive as reported in US congressional testimony?

Did you illegally organise the use of Cambridge Analytica in Brexit?

Were you aware and part of the conspiracy between Cambridge Analytica and the Internet Research Agency (St Petersburg) to coordinate social media campaigns in Brexit and the 2016 US elections?

Were you involved in organising the transfer of up to £8m of laundered funding from Russia via AAron Banks to two Leave campaigns?

Did you concede defeat 52:48 for remain on referendum night knowing a poll told you the true result so that Crispin Odley and other backers of Brexit could make a fortune (he made £200m +) on the sharp rise and then absolute crash of sterling in the 2 hours after the result?

etc.? etc.?

Are you in fact an asset/agent for the Russian State?

Though I'd ****ing love it if someone had the balls to ask him the last question first. Just to see him squirm and deny it. The hit them with the rest of the questions until he walks from the interview (which he would if he had any sense).

Unfortunately we live in a world where very few professional journalists with any sort of platform in Ireland / The UK are attuned to this stuff and actively working on it. And no major news outlet wants to tackle it properly head on. So Farage is able to pop up and say what he says when the above items are out there and parts of them being actively investigated in the US. It's because of that reality that we have to endure this shambolic side show in Westminster this week.

Tell me how

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think these are the better ones, in that they are easier for a talk show host to grasp and explain:




Though I'd ****ing love it if someone had the balls to ask him the last question first. Just to see him squirm and deny it. The hit them with the rest of the questions until he walks from the interview (which he would if he had any sense).

Unfortunately we live in a world where very few professional journalists with any sort of platform in Ireland / The UK are attuned to this stuff and actively working on it. And no major news outlet wants to tackle it properly head on. So Farage is able to pop up and say what he says when the above items are out there and parts of them being actively investigated in the US. It's because of that reality that we have to endure this shambolic side show in Westminster this week.

Hopefully we will here Ivan say, "joining us on line 2 is Carole Cadwalladar"
It won't happen though.

Journalists/shows would quickly run out of guests if they challenged them all they it could be done. They simply would refuse to appear.

There is no point shows having just Steve Pound, David Lammy, Anna Soubry etc on unless they are countered by the other side.

What I would prefer to see is 1:1 debates from opposing sides rather than interviews with just one sides representative at a time.

Tell me how

lawred2 wrote: »

implications like these?

a devalued pound?
reduced living standards?
restrictions on movement?
barriers to trade?
lost economic growth?

I'm thinking more along the lines of the following;

More draconian steps to manipulate election/referendum outcomes.
Suggestions to ignore the rule of law because the government did not follow it.
Attempts to bypass government structures to achieve a desired/preferred society.

LuckyLloyd

Tell me how wrote: »

Hopefully we will here Ivan say, "joining us on line 2 is Carole Cadwalladar"
It won't happen though.

Journalists/shows would quickly run out of guests if they challenged them all they it could be done. They simply would refuse to appear.

There is no point shows having just Steve Pound, David Lammy, Anna Soubry etc on unless they are countered by the other side.

What I would prefer to see is 1:1 debates from opposing sides rather than interviews with just one sides representative at a time.

That should be the objective with Farage. There is no benefit to having someone like that offered a reputable platform where they are soft balled and given respect. Actually, to say there is 'no benefit' substantially misses the point. It is actively dangerous and damaging to the democratic process as we have seen.

A Dub in Glasgo

Berserker wrote: »

It won't. One of the main concerns that voters had in the last referendum was the position that an independent Scotland would have in the EU. If an 'IndyRef2' happens Scotland will have to apply for membership and serve their time. No chance that the Scots will vote for independence under those terms. A second referendum is a complete waste of money and time. I know people who votes Yes last time in that election and they won't be doing that again

It will. Remember this?

https://twitter.com/uk_together/status/506899714923843584?lang=en



There is no waiting list or timeframe for EU membership, there are conditions to be met

I know people who voted No last time and they will be voting Yes the next time

Tell me how

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That should be the objective with Farage. There is no benefit to having someone like that offered a reputable platform where they are soft balled and given respect. Actually, to say there is 'no benefit' substantially misses the point. It is actively dangerous and damaging to the democratic process as we have seen.

Completely disagree. He has been an elected MEP for 20 years.

Echo chambers serve no purpose.