Brexit Discussion Thread VI

hill16bhoy

Enzokk wrote: »

The target of less than 100 000 immigration to the UK is her target and she will do what she can to attain it, it seems even if that means wrecking the country so nobody would want to go there. I am sure I am imagining it now but I suddenly get the feeling she gets more animated when she proclaims free movement will end.

May's total inability to relate to the victims and survivors of the Grenfell Tower disaster shouldn't have come as much of a surprise.

They were, you know (nudge, nudge, wink wink), "different".

BlitzKrieg

It's another threat to punish Ireland from clueless Brexiteers

https://twitter.com/DVATW/status/1073531280862654464


Thankfully this one is being firmly put in his place.

fash

road_high wrote: »

It’s the only “upside” of Brexit and a card that goes down well to the gallery. Hence why she continually plays it

More than that- she also built the machinery for racist/xenophobic treatment during her stint at the home office.
On the WA, she personally had the text of the political declaration changed to have the ending of FOM on the first page:

www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/albertonardelli/theresa-may-ending-free-movement-first-page-brexit

lawred2

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

It's another threat to punish Ireland from clueless Brexiteers

https://twitter.com/DVATW/status/1073531280862654464


Thankfully this one is being firmly put in his place.

Fairly sure another dimwit came out with the same tweet a few months back

road_high

fash wrote: »

More than that- she also built the machinery for racist/xenophobic treatment during her stint at the home office.
On the WA, she personally had the text of the political declaration changed to have the ending of FOM on the first page:

www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/albertonardelli/theresa-may-ending-free-movement-first-page-brexit

If they head down the no deal route it’ll be academic anyhow as the economy will be so slam dunked that the Uk won’t be worth moving to anyhow.

Anthracite

brickster69 wrote: »

Vehicles under the EU Flag on the streets to quell protesters in Paris.

https://newspunch.com/eu-army-deployed-paris-crush-french-revolution/

No French flag to see

Just so you know, I've flagged this post. Either it is malicious spreading of fake news, or a post so lacking in any sort of common-sense or good judgement that it rather discredits the person who posted it.

mcmoustache

brickster69 wrote: »

Eurogendfor can be called on by a member ( 6 of them ) in case of civil disorder.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/eurogendfor?lang=en

https://twitter.com/garuda28/status/1071754316350803969

I looked up these twitter accounts and, well, these are QAnon pushers.



In case you're unaware, the QAnon stuff is bullshít. It's origins aren't clear - it could be a Russian operation or it could be a 4chan scam or something other hoax. Whatever it is, it's still bullshít.


If you're getting your information from bullshít QAnon pushers and find them trustworthy, you should probably get off the internet because it might be too much for you to handle.

Donald Trump

Enzokk wrote: »

The UK will be limiting EU migrants to the UK to those that only earn more than £30k per annum. What will the NHS do for nurses? What about carers? I cannot understand the direction May is taking, she is all over the place but her actions surely only ever screams no-deal and an insular UK that will only be in trouble in the future.

EU migrants will have to earn £30,000 before coming to Britain under crackdown

Will be grand for those doing those low-paid jobs.


UK residents are just going to have to pay higher prices so that the employers can pay the workers 30k minimum.



Migrant workers will be happy out :pac:

Enzokk

Donald Trump wrote: »

Will be grand for those doing those low-paid jobs.


UK residents are just going to have to pay higher prices so that the employers can pay the workers 30k minimum.



Migrant workers will be happy out :pac:

I really cannot see any sense in this at all. If the NHS is reliant on workers from other parts of the world for staff but their salaries will not be enough to ensure they can work in the UK, is the Tories now deliberately setting the NHS up for failing?

As for Corbyn, this will make for depressing reading for him,

Pass Brexit deal and fall behind Lib Dems, voters tell Corbyn in poll

Labour would fall behind the Liberal Democrats in the polls if Jeremy Corbyn helps the Tories to secure Brexit, according to a huge new poll.

The YouGov survey of 5,000 voters, commissioned by the People’s Vote campaign, shows that support for Labour could fall from 36% to 22% if they helped the Tories to pass a compromise deal with Brussels like the one advocated by Theresa May.

Under those circumstances, the Lib Dems would soar from 10% to 26% — their highest rating in any poll since they entered coalition government with the Tories in 2010.

The poll shows that Labour’s supporters want a People’s Vote by a margin of almost three to one — and an even bigger proportion would stay in the European Union if they were given the chance.

Those who voted Labour last year and remain the year before say they are more likely to switch to the Liberal Democrats (49%) than stay with Labour (41%). The survey suggests no compensating boost among those who voted leave in the referendum. In fact, it would be the Conservatives who would benefit if both main parties backed Brexit. Their support among leave voters would rise from 62% to 69%. Labour support among leave voters would slip from 21% to 19%.

So basically Jeremy Corbyn is chasing a policy that will cost him votes, that will make the country poorer and that his members and voters do not want and that will not gain him any new votes from Leave voters. Other than that in terms of Brexit he is onto a winner.

How long will they keep running into the wall?

Enzokk

Here is an editorial piece from the Observer about how depressing things in the UK actually has become and how Brexit is making it worse by taking all of the attention of the problems that are still there and bubbling away. A lot of these problems has contributed to the people looking for something new and different but the answers on why people need to use foodbanks lie closer to home. Unfortunately it is too easy to blame immigrants for your own problems, they are easy targets all over the world.

The Observer view on the baleful distraction of Brexit

Brexit has paralysed British politics: it has left the government utterly incapacitated, ministers warring and both main parties riven by splits. It is absorbing every shred of political energy; in the words of one official, it has wiped the policy grid clean. Yet in every nook and cranny of the state – from understaffed hospitals to the schools sending parents begging letters for financial support – there are problems that demand urgent focus and resource. We also face huge social challenges that require action now, from how to care for an ageing society to how to prepare for the impact of technology on the world of work. All this is going ignored, with detrimental effects on people’s lives.

There is a grim paradox at the heart of Brexit. The vote for Britain to leave the EU was partly fuelled by the sense among many voters that there are increasingly two Britains: a thriving capital barely touched by recession and boarded-up high streets outside the south-east. This has been a long project in the making, driven by decades of deindustrialisation and uneven economic growth that have contributed to some of the biggest regional inequalities in western Europe. Yet Brexit is going to make it far harder to respond to this gap, which has only got wider since the financial crisis.

Of course, not all that’s transpired since June 2016 can be laid at the door of Brexit. Deliberate political choices made since 2010 at first contributed to the economic dissatisfaction that paved the way for the vote and since then have made it worse. Even as Conservative chancellors delivered expensive tax cuts to the overwhelming benefit of more affluent households, the pain of the spending cuts has been borne by low-income families with children, with child poverty forecast to hit record levels by 2022. From hospitals to schools to policing, public services have been forced to cut back in ways that have hurt people’s lives. Instead of borrowing to invest in the infrastructure that could have kickstarted regional economies, ministers used the financial crisis as an excuse to spend less.

It really is quite dire in the UK at the moment, even without Brexit potentially lighting a match in a room that just needs a spark to explode. Schools are sending letters to parents to ask for money to help pay for supplies. This is after these parents pay their taxes for these very same supplies for schools. It is really rather depressing to see what is happening in the UK right now.

Kermit.de.frog

Sunday Times reporting tomorrow second referendum very much on the agenda now!

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/Q5XNMr_PK6mUfrKxji3d2Q/https/d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/mYZXXLqLTb2TVW1IP9UJ_times.JPG

Strazdas

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Sunday Times reporting tomorrow second referendum very much on the agenda now!

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/Q5XNMr_PK6mUfrKxji3d2Q/https/d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/mYZXXLqLTb2TVW1IP9UJ_times.JPG

Don't forget though the Boss woman is totally opposed and says it will never happen on her watch. We're still talking about a very divided cabinet (as you can see in that article, her ministers favour about five different versions of Brexit and nobody can agree on anything).

cml387

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Sunday Times reporting tomorrow second referendum very much on the agenda now!

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/Q5XNMr_PK6mUfrKxji3d2Q/https/d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/mYZXXLqLTb2TVW1IP9UJ_times.JPG

It's a Tim Shipman piece.
Now I read his book "All Out War" about the referendum campaign and it was on the whole a pretty balanced analysis of the whole affair, particularly good on the chaotic Tory leadership campaign that followed (and btw if you read it you'll realise that Boris will never,never ,ever be leader of the Conservative party).

However he also wrote the supposedly well sourced piece a few weeks ago where he confidently predicted from good sources that Ireland would be "f*cked" in the final WA.

So maybe he is now flying a kite for cabal within the cabinet.

Water John

She has turned so often, Chequers one of later incarnations was dead and not mentioned anymore, in a week. She'll do whatever will keep her the job.

Just watched The Big Short on BBC 2. Hope every person in the UK who supports Crash out Brexit was looking. But then it's the rest should be taking it to heart and know bull***t when they see it.

zapitastas

Donald Trump wrote: »

Will be grand for those doing those low-paid jobs.


UK residents are just going to have to pay higher prices so that the employers can pay the workers 30k minimum.



Migrant workers will be happy out :pac:

Maybe not because by the end of all of this who knows how much 30000 Sterling will be worth. Could be getting paid with a wheel barrow full of notes

VonZan

cml387 wrote: »

It's a Tim Shipman piece.
Now I read his book "All Out War" about the referendum campaign and it was on the whole a pretty balanced analysis of the whole affair, particularly good on the chaotic Tory leadership campaign that followed (and btw if you read it you'll realise that Boris will never,never ,ever be leader of the Conservative party).

However he also wrote the supposedly well sourced piece a few weeks ago where he confidently predicted from good sources that Ireland would be "f*cked" in the final WA.

So maybe he is now flying a kite for cabal within the cabinet.

I think the general idea from him and his Ilk is that the EU would push the border issue aside in order to get a better trade deal with the UK but that is a very narrow viewpoint as the border issue is invariably tied into the general relationship the EU has with the UK. In general a lot of people have overestimated the UK's hand in negotiations and I believe many countries bar Ireland will be happy that the UK leaves the EU as they were the biggest opponents to tax and financial reform and trade expansion.

Tell me how

Carole Cadwalladr, an investigative journalist who did more than anyone to uncover the funding shenanigans going on behind the Leave campaign and someone who most definitely is not on Nigel Farage's Christmas card list got very frustrated at the news that HBO are releasing a flim relating to Brexit.

https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1074040171681775616

Given our experience here where some high profile trials have collapsed due to stories in the media, it seems strange to publish something pertaining to portray events which are still under criminal investigation.

It seems that the film is part funded by someone with ties to Trump (and by default elements of the Leave campaign).
I wonder could this really be something which is essentially propaganda to try to direct public opinion or scupper a trial before defendants are even charged?

Even if not, it still seems irresponsible of HBO (and Cumberbatch) to get involved in something like this at this stage.

Capt'n Midnight

Enzokk wrote: »

The target of less than 100 000 immigration to the UK is her target and she will do what she can to attain it, it seems even if that means wrecking the country so nobody would want to go there. I am sure I am imagining it now but I suddenly get the feeling she gets more animated when she proclaims free movement will end.

It's the old "filling in the potholes" routine.

I would like to think May will reverse course and Remain, but she has been Home Secretary or PM since May 2010. The UK has complete control of non-EU arrivals. Over 103 non-UK citizens arrived from China and India alone last year. And China isn't even in the Commonwealth.

Reducing immigration couldn't be easier for someone in her position and that's something to judge her by.


Anyone who voted for Brexit on the basis of Immigration is probably regarded as a useful idiot because non-EU immigration has gone up since May got in.


UK Government figures for non-British Citizens last year. .xls file

Arrivals from, vs departures.
China 55,000 vs 14,000
India 48,000 vs 8,000

Romania 48,000 vs 11,000 this is still high but they aren't £30K jobs
Poland 23,000 vs 23,000 - so Zero nett migration already.

Mr.Nice Guy

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

It's another threat to punish Ireland from clueless Brexiteers

Thankfully this one is being firmly put in his place.

He's a unionist commentator from NI. He's appeared a few times on the Stephen Nolan show, often blaming republicans for something or other. He's straight out of the Jim Allister, Jamie Bryson mould of hating on everything to do with the Irish. Not worth anyone's time.

Seth Brundle

Enzokk wrote: »

It really is quite dire in the UK at the moment, even without Brexit potentially lighting a match in a room that just needs a spark to explode. Schools are sending letters to parents to ask for money to help pay for supplies. This is after these parents pay their taxes for these very same supplies for schools. It is really rather depressing to see what is happening in the UK right now.

In fairness, parents here are always being tapped for money by schools because of a shortage of funds.

Thargor

Anyone getting a serious impression of the second referendum drum being banged everywhere all of a sudden? Id say its guaranteed to happen now.

bilston

Thargor wrote: »

Anyone getting a serious impression of the second referendum drum being banged everywhere all of a sudden? Id say its guaranteed to happen now.

Well barring a miracle it's either No Deal or a second referendum. I have some concerns about a second referendum. For example I've seen it suggested in some places that Leavers could boycott it. It's no wonder Leavers fear a second referendum, I read that since June 2016, about 1.4m people in the UK have turned 18. Leave won the referendum by 1.2m votes.

It's actually a disgrace that 16 and 17 year olds weren't allowed to vote anyway given the long term ramifications of this decision. Why should an 80 year old (who of course has every right to a say themselves) have more power than someone who will actually have to deal with the consequences of this madness in the years to come?

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

There are more sites mentioning about the EU flags and surely if it's true thats unusual-I've never seen EU riot control vans and if anyone says it's normal that's surprising.

They are not EU riot control vans. They are French riot control vans that have an EU flag on the side. Most of our government buildings have an EU flag on them, but the EU does not own them.

Imreoir2

Donald Trump wrote: »

Will be grand for those doing those low-paid jobs.


UK residents are just going to have to pay higher prices so that the employers can pay the workers 30k minimum.



Migrant workers will be happy out :pac:

Not if they are sick. The starting salary for Nurses and junior doctors in the NHS is below £30,000 and there are already acute staffing problems due to Brexit.

Imreoir2

bilston wrote: »

Well barring a miracle it's either No Deal or a second referendum. I have some concerns about a second referendum. For example I've seen it suggested in some places that Leavers could boycott it. It's no wonder Leavers fear a second referendum, I read that since June 2016, about 1.4m people in the UK have turned 18. Leave won the referendum by 1.2m votes.

It's actually a disgrace that 16 and 17 year olds weren't allowed to vote anyway given the long term ramifications of this decision. Why should an 80 year old (who of course has every right to a say themselves) have more power than someone who will actually have to deal with the consequences of this madness in the years to come?

We can only hope they boycott it, they might win otherwise. If they boycott it they lose, the UK will stay in the EU and brexit will become a bad memory.

Enzokk

Seth Brundle wrote: »

In fairness, parents here are always being tapped for money by schools because of a shortage of funds.

Yes, that is true. Now imagine our government and opposition actively pursuing a policy that would harm our economy.

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

Well barring a miracle it's either No Deal or a second referendum. I have some concerns about a second referendum. For example I've seen it suggested in some places that Leavers could boycott it. It's no wonder Leavers fear a second referendum, I read that since June 2016, about 1.4m people in the UK have turned 18. Leave won the referendum by 1.2m votes.

It's actually a disgrace that 16 and 17 year olds weren't allowed to vote anyway given the long term ramifications of this decision. Why should an 80 year old (who of course has every right to a say themselves) have more power than someone who will actually have to deal with the consequences of this madness in the years to come?

The danger is that the question would be May's deal or no deal. That lunacy is still rife in the cabinet, Jeremy Hunt is still pushing it and then there's the new iteration of 'managed no deal' which is just no deal with unicorns on top.

No deal shouldn't be anywhere near a putative ballot, but May is so wedded to her red lines and her deal that she'd insist on it in order to get her deal through. And it would appeal to the ERG types who for whatever reason think (if think is the right word) that it's a good idea.

20silkcut

VonZan wrote: »

I think the general idea from him and his Ilk is that the EU would push the border issue aside in order to get a better trade deal with the UK but that is a very narrow viewpoint as the border issue is invariably tied into the general relationship the EU has with the UK. In general a lot of people have overestimated the UK's hand in negotiations and I believe many countries bar Ireland will be happy that the UK leaves the EU as they were the biggest opponents to tax and financial reform and trade expansion.

And biggest opponents of the CAP. Britain is country with very low agricultural priority. There will be upsides to their leaving for many EU countries possibly even ourselves long term.

lapua20grain

I have to say that out of all of this I welcome that we have a referendum commission, I know people denigrate the system over here but the commission guarantees that there is a non biased fact based reference point for people to study the real impacts of a referendum not what the yes or no sides want you to hear.

Leroy42

The ref comm certainly helps, but wouldn't have a difference against such a sustained and deep rooted anti EU campaign spreading back over many years.

The big problem the likes of Cameron had, was that successive governments, PM s and politicians had spent years blaming the EU for every I'll that beset the UK. Thus it was very hard to suddenly hear them say that the EU was actually worth it.