Brexit Discussion Thread VI

theguzman

devnull wrote: »

It's now being reported that bosses of Amazon, Tesco and other high profile companies have had an emergency late night telephone conference with the Chancellor as they are growing increasingly concerned about the current direction of travel and uncertainty and are now starting to round on the government.

In addition being reported in various sources that anywhere from 75-100 Labour MPs are going to come out and demand a peoples vote as soon as Corbyn's vote fails.

Looks like interesting rest of the week lays ahead.

If those lads are getting worried then its clear this is good for the ordinary guy, if the British establishment have the brass neck to try a Nice or Lisbon II stunt with Brexit it will be a 70% Leave Hard Brexit. When the corporate crooks are worried its always a good thing.

Brexit will give short term instability and upheavel but the long term outlook will be great to be away from undemocratic EU Franco/German Dictatorship.

Strazdas

Bit cynical wrote: »

Given today's events in the HoC, what, in the opinion of those here, should our Government say and do?

Tony Connelly said on the News that the result takes a lot of pressure off Ireland. It shows that the backstop is not the key issue at all and that Brexiteers hate May's deal in general and for 101 different reasons.

bob mcbob

prinzeugen wrote: »

But the high up EU jobs are so diluted to the point its undemocratic. You can vote for a president in the US. You cant in the EU.

The US president can -
- Take the country to war
- Stop paying salaries for the government employees
- Build a wall

Can the EU president do any of this?

prawnsambo

Russman wrote: »

Just watched David Davis on BBC saying the EU always cave, “ ........they wait til the last month, week, day, hour, even second.....”
He reckoned the Irish farmers, German car makers and French wine producers will ensure the EU gives in and gives the UK what they want.
I honestly hope to God he’s wrong this time and the EU does hold firm, these people need a lesson in humility.

It would be the end of the EU if that happened. And there's actually no history of the EU caving at the last minute, that's just made up by Davis. The EU are noteworthy for delivering hard-nosed trade deals. Witness all the squealing in the US about having to meet EU standards.

Spanish Eyes

Strazdas wrote: »

Tony Connelly said on the News that the result takes a lot of pressure off Ireland. It shows that the backstop is not the key issue at all and that Brexiteers hate May's deal in general and for 101 different reasons.

I doubt many of them even know NI is part of the UK and care less about GFA either.

prinzeugen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You can't vote for the head of state in the UK

The head of state is symbolic not political. Like most EU monarchy now. Big, big difference.

Donald Trump

theguzman wrote: »

If those lads are getting worried then its clear this is good for the ordinary guy, if the British establishment have the brass neck to try a Nice or Lisbon II stunt with Brexit it will be a 70% Leave Hard Brexit. When the corporate crooks are worried its always a good thing.

Brexit will give short term instability and upheavel but the long term outlook will be great to be away from undemocratic EU Franco/German Dictatorship.

Ah jaysus.


Just because someone you don't like is against something doesn't automatically mean it is good for you.

theguzman

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah jaysus.


Just because someone you don't like is against something doesn't automatically mean it is good for you.

If its bad for them then its good for everyone else.

gmisk

theguzman wrote: »

If those lads are getting worried then its clear this is good for the ordinary guy, if the British establishment have the brass neck to try a Nice or Lisbon II stunt with Brexit it will be a 70% Leave Hard Brexit. When the corporate crooks are worried its always a good thing.

Brexit will give short term instability and upheavel but the long term outlook will be great to be away from undemocratic EU Franco/German Dictatorship.

You honestly believe 70% would vote for a hard Brexit now?
I would think if another vote the remain side would win by 5 to 10 points this time, some people clearly didn't know what they were voting for, I don't think that 350m a week for the NHS is going to materialise do you? Nigel Farage admitted that the day after No side won lol

Amirani

prinzeugen wrote: »

But the high up EU jobs are so diluted to the point its undemocratic. You can vote for a president in the US. You cant in the EU.

And a president with majority vote in the US doesn't necessarily get elected, super democratic.

The President of the EU doesn't have much power relative to the US President, because there is proper power sharing between the institutions; one of national Governments, and one directly elected by the citizenry.

The US political system is relatively badly designed and is certainly not a model for high democracy. EU ain't perfect either, but it doesn't lead to high concentration of power in 1 individual that has the power to shutdown the Government for extended periods...

prawnsambo

theguzman wrote: »

If those lads are getting worried then its clear this is good for the ordinary guy, if the British establishment have the brass neck to try a Nice or Lisbon II stunt with Brexit it will be a 70% Leave Hard Brexit. When the corporate crooks are worried its always a good thing.

Brexit will give short term instability and upheavel but the long term outlook will be great to be away from undemocratic EU Franco/German Dictatorship.

I'm imagining the mental contortions you went through to come up with this spin. Must have been painful.

The actual message from this is that these companies will actually start making decisions if the HoC doesn't. And those decisions will be irrevocable. Already hundreds of billions have left the UK. Some estimates reckon that almost two trillion pounds will have left by the end of March.

The little guys will be the first to suffer from this and the warning signs are already flashing with low sales figures on the high street over Christmas. There is no upside to this.

wiggle16

prinzeugen wrote: »

There is so much wrong with that comparison. The USA is more democratic than the EU.

The way they EU is run is more like the Soviet Union or China.

That's a disgracefully flippant thing to say.

If we were in the Soviet Union or China, we could not have this conversation. You literally have no idea how lucky you are.

That is really the root of the problem with the rise of the far right in the West and populist nationalist phenomena such as Brexit, Trump, the current Polish govt, etc. We have had peace, opportunities and civil liberties guaranteed for so long that we no longer realise what the alternative means.

It's the same root cause of anti-vaxxer stuff: people of childbearing age are no longer familiar with polio or measles and don't realise how serious these diseases are. It's very much a case of the old "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" schtick.

The EU and Europe in general are far from perfect, but if you think the EU and the way it is run is anything like the USSR or the PRC then I don't know what to say to you. As another poster said, do you actually believe any of the drivel you've written?

Donald Trump

bob mcbob wrote: »

The US president can -
- Take the country to war
- Stop paying salaries for the government employees
- Build a wall

Can the EU president do any of this?

Not quite true.


President has to sign off on the allocation of funds. No funds and they don't get paid


However both houses could pass a bill. In the event that the president refuses to sign, it goes into law by default after 10 days.



Neither is the third one.


First one is arguably true.

Imreoir2

EdgeCase wrote: »

That's just going to reinforce them and also the markets have clearly not priced and continue not to price a hard crash out scenario into anything which could result in an unbelievably bad crash in a few weeks time if the worst case scenario does happen. The traders are being incredibly optimistic.

They have not priced in a hard crash because they are growing in confidence that they don't have to. Brexit is a walking corpse, it's as dead as a very dead thing, it's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible, this is an ex Brexit.

prawnsambo

theguzman wrote: »

If its bad for them then its good for everyone else.

If you believe that, your economic education is sorely lacking. There are situations when the above could be true. But you'd have to squint a lot and peek through your fingers to make it so.

prinzeugen

bob mcbob wrote: »

The US president can -
- Take the country to war
- Stop paying salaries for the government employees
- Build a wall

Can the EU president do any of this?

Yes.

Trump started a trade war with China. The EU wants the same with the UK.
Not valid as the EU is not a government but likes to think it is.
The EU want Ireland in Schengen. We will have a wall if that happens. (UK will get the blame)

We are getting dragged into a United States of Europe that I doubt few want.

Russman

prawnsambo wrote: »

It would be the end of the EU if that happened. And there's actually no history of the EU caving at the last minute, that's just made up by Davis. The EU are noteworthy for delivering hard-nosed trade deals. Witness all the squealing in the US about having to meet EU standards.

You’d like to think so alright. Obviously while Brexit being cancelled is the ideal solution for everyone and nobody really wants a no-deal, at this point it’s hard to know what way it will swing. I think the hard core like Davis could be doing untold damage by articulating attitudes like that and not managing realistic expectations for the population over there, and no doubt (hopefully) hardening EU resolve.

Russman

prinzeugen wrote: »

Yes.

Trump started a trade war with China. The EU wants the same with the UK.
Not valid as the EU is not a government but likes to think it is.
The EU want Ireland in Schengen. We will have a wall if that happens. (UK will get the blame)

We are getting dragged into a United States of Europe that I doubt few want.

Why would the EU want a trade war with the UK ?

prinzeugen

Imreoir2 wrote: »

They have not priced in a hard crash because they are growing in confidence that they don't have to. Brexit is a walking corpse, it's as dead as a very dead thing, it's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible, this is an ex Brexit.

How? The UK voted leave so they will leave. Delusional to think Brexit is dead. Tonight if anything will make people more determined to see it happens.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Some posts deleted. Serious discussion from here onwards please.

Anthracite

prinzeugen wrote: »

But the high up EU jobs are so diluted to the point its undemocratic. You can vote for a president in the US. You cant in the EU.

And you can't vote for the Queen either.

The idea of holding up the USA as an exemplar of democracy (where it looks like there is a very feasible possibility that their President is an agent of their number one global enemy) should suggest the bankruptcy of your argument.

If you want to have total control, live in a hut on a desert island. It's not exactly hard to understand that as you become part of larger and larger social organisations, your vote gets diluted.

Anthracite

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm imagining the mental contortions you went through to come up with this spin. Must have been painful.

Yes. Presumably if they objected to the planet getting destroyed by climate change, it must be good for 'ordinary people'.

bob mcbob

prinzeugen wrote: »

Yes.

Trump started a trade war with China. The EU wants the same with the UK.
Not valid as the EU is not a government but likes to think it is.
The EU want Ireland in Schengen. We will have a wall if that happens. (UK will get the blame)

We are getting dragged into a United States of Europe that I doubt few want.

Ok on these opinions, is it also your belief that it is the EU president who is the mastermind behind all of this?

Imreoir2

prinzeugen wrote: »

How? The UK voted leave so they will leave. Delusional to think Brexit is dead. Tonight if anything will make people more determined to see it happens.

Let's not forget the reality of the Brexit vote, it was a glorified opinion poll. The people who matter now are the MPs, they have the power to quash Brexit and have very good reason to do so.

prinzeugen

Russman wrote: »

Why would the EU want a trade war with the UK ?

Punishment. But there is a wee flaw in the EU plan.

As one poster said "exploding toasters". The likes of Lidl and Aldi will be fecked.

The standards in the UK have always exceeded the EU standards. Cheap **** from China sold by Lidl etc would become illegal.

Spanish Eyes

prinzeugen wrote: »

Punishment. But there is a wee flaw in the EU plan.

As one poster said "exploding toasters". The likes of Lidl and Aldi will be fecked.

The standards in the UK have always exceeded the EU standards. Cheap **** from China sold by Lidl etc would become illegal.

Now I could be wrong, but surely the EU has a trade agreement with China to import this stuff which must meet EU standards.

I think exploding toasters is a wrong thing to say about our German friends who have saved us a lot of money in food bills with great grub.

But I may have misinterpreted your post.

prinzeugen

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Let's not forget the reality of the Brexit vote, it was a glorified opinion poll. The people who matter now are the MPs, they have the power to quash Brexit and have very good reason to do so.

If the vote had gone the other way would you still call it a glorified opinion poll?

I doubt it. It was a vote of people in the UK. The pro EU side is a joke as the majority are not even eligible to vote in UK referendums.

Just a rent-a-mob making up the numbers.

bob mcbob

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Now I could be wrong, but surely the EU has a trade agreement with China to import this stuff which must meet EU standards.

I think exploding toasters is a wrong thing to say about our German friends who have saved us a lot of money in food bills with great grub.

But I may have misinterpreted your post.

You are missing the bigger picture - it is all part of the EU presidents cunning plan.

The toasters are just the start, if you don't draw the line at toasters then kettles, irons, even washing machines will be next.

Dyr

I think the odd thing here is that May has been revealed to have absolutely no game plan whatsoever, not even a Baldrickian cunning plan.

prinzeugen

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Now I could be wrong, but surely the EU has a trade agreement with China to import this stuff which must meet EU standards.

I think exploding toasters is a wrong thing to say about our German friends who have saved us a lot of money in food bills with great grub.

But I may have misinterpreted your post.

The UK standards were lowered in the 90s. Remember the kitemark? None of the krud sold today would pass that test.

Then you have the kids costumes. Sold as toys under EU law. Highly flammable. Illegal now in the UK but fine to sell in Ireland.