Brexit Discussion Thread VI

Shelga

90% of the Question Time audience in Derby seem to want to leave with no deal. That stain on humanity Isabel Oakeshott is playing to her audience.

Absolute insanity. It is like a cult. Please, let them leave with no deal and see them still try to blame the EU for absolutely everything from the NHS to housing in three years time.

bob mcbob

LeinsterDub wrote: »

So in summary if May does anything people will quit? If Corbyn does anything people will quit?

Yup so lets see where we stand -
- 2nd Referendum - rejected by Corbyn and May
- General Election - rejected by May
- No deal - rejected by Corbyn and enough Tories to stop it
- May's Compromise - rejected by Corbyn and enough Tories to stop it

That only leaves a type Norway option - supported by opposition parties and probably enough Tories to allow it to pass

Enzokk

Shelga wrote: »

90% of the Question Time audience in Derby seem to want to leave with no deal. That stain on humanity Isabel Oakeshott is playing to her audience.

Absolute insanity. It is like a cult. Please, let them leave with no deal and see them still try to blame the EU for absolutely everything from the NHS to housing in three years time.

Just wait, all the greatest hits will be there.

Strazdas

Enzokk wrote: »

Its grim viewing. You have to hope they are selecting their audience otherwise the UK education system has a lot to answer for. This is Derby, where Rolls Royce builds their aircraft engines for Airbus. They are clamoring to leave without a deal it seems.

The UK is screwed. Even if this audience represents say 30% or 40% of the UK, it spells major trouble ahead.

sandbelter

bob mcbob wrote: »

Yup so lets see where we stand -
- 2nd Referendum - rejected by Corbyn and May
- General Election - rejected by May
- No deal - rejected by Corbyn and enough Tories to stop it
- May's Compromise - rejected by Corbyn and enough Tories to stop it

That only leaves a type Norway option - supported by opposition parties and probably enough Tories to allow it to pass

Or a by default "no deal."

josip

Can someone please explain what the Norway-type option is?
Does that mean the UK would have to be a member of EFTA?
I thought Norway said they would veto that?

Tell me how

Shelga wrote: »

90% of the Question Time audience in Derby seem to want to leave with no deal. That stain on humanity Isabel Oakeshott is playing to her audience.

Absolute insanity. It is like a cult. Please, let them leave with no deal and see them still try to blame the EU for absolutely everything from the NHS to housing in three years time.

Walk away with no deal and Angela Merkel is going to be ringing pretty quickly!

Where are they getting their confidence from?

10000maniacs

bob mcbob wrote: »

Yup so lets see where we stand -
- 2nd Referendum - rejected by Corbyn and May
- General Election - rejected by May
- No deal - rejected by Corbyn and enough Tories to stop it
- May's Compromise - rejected by Corbyn and enough Tories to stop it

That only leaves a type Norway option - supported by opposition parties and probably enough Tories to allow it to pass

Yes the Norway option. It would mean Britain continuing to abide by the four EU freedoms, including freedom of movement, as well as having no decision-making power in Brussels. And they would be replacing the ECJ with the EFTA courts. And why would countries like Norway along with the likes of Lichtenstein, Iceland and Switzerland allow a monolith like the UK distort the harmony and balance enjoyed by EEA/EFTA currently. What is in it for smaller countries vs the UK?

Capt'n Midnight

bob mcbob wrote: »

The Telegraph headline

Cabinet ministers warn Theresa May she will face mass resignations unless she allows MPs to stop no-deal Brexit.

Paywall Link https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/17/philip-hammond-faces-cabinet-backlash-telling-business-chiefs/


https://sluggerotoole.com/2019/01/17/120363/

As matters stand, we’re either heading for crash out No Deal or the main parties are heading for break-up.

I can't see either party splitting.
- Because nearly 60% of seats are safe seats. Leave the party , leave the seat.

- And watching how UKIP's vote imploded isn't going to encourage MP to go it alone.

- Looking at how the SNP are ignored means no MP will want to join a small party.

- Both Labour and Tories will try to strangle such a party at birth.

Bit cynical

bob mcbob wrote: »

Yup so lets see where we stand -
- 2nd Referendum - rejected by Corbyn and May
- General Election - rejected by May
- No deal - rejected by Corbyn and enough Tories to stop it
- May's Compromise - rejected by Corbyn and enough Tories to stop it

That only leaves a type Norway option - supported by opposition parties and probably enough Tories to allow it to pass

I think that is a reasonable assessment.

tuxy

josip wrote: »

Can someone please explain what the Norway-type option is?
Does that mean the UK would have to be a member of EFTA?
I thought Norway said they would veto that?

It would be a bespoke agreement between the EU and UK
EFTA would be used as a template and then changes made that both sides are happy with.
I don't know if Norway could have a say if they are not involved.

Strazdas

josip wrote: »

Can someone please explain what the Norway-type option is?
Does that mean the UK would have to be a member of EFTA?
I thought Norway said they would veto that?

It does mean that, yes and Norwegians did suggest they would have a problem with it.

It would be a bizarre solution though. Why would the UK leave the EU to join the Single Market? It clearly would be a worse deal than EU membership.

Capt'n Midnight

10000maniacs wrote: »

Yes the Norway option. It would mean Britain continuing to abide by the four EU freedoms, including freedom of movement, as well as having no decision-making power in Brussels. And they would be replacing the ECJ with the EFTA courts. And why would countries like Norway along with the likes of Lichtenstein, Iceland and Switzerland allow a monolith like the UK distort the harmony and balance enjoyed by EEA/EFTA currently. What is in it for smaller countries vs the UK?

And Schengen.

Also no passporting for the financials.

Also Norway pays as much to the EU per capita as the UK.

So Norway is a non starter because it crosses so many red lines.



Getting a Norway plus plus with all the above taken out is a pipe dream at this late stage, especially now that other countries are now spending money on preparations.

Capt'n Midnight

Question Time

Isobel - staying in the single market means freedom of movement.

WTF ?

not even challenged on it.

Mr.Nice Guy

Seems apparent there's a sizeable chunk of the UK population that want no deal. The support for it in the Commons might be small but they operate under a FPTP system rather than a proportional one. I don't think that body reflects the wider public sentiment.

Listening to Question Time it's clear they've fallen for the charlatans and snake-oil salesmen hook, line and sinker. One member still trotting out the unicorn about the German car manufacturers coming to the rescue.

I really think the UK is on its last legs. I can't see a nation with sense like Scotland wanting to be tied to this circus for much longer. I just hope the majority in NI reach the same conclusion as it's tragic that our destiny on this island is affected by the opinions of people like Isabel Oakeshott.

Sierra Oscar

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Question Time

Isobel - staying in the single market means freedom of movement.

WTF ?

not even challenged on it.

This Question Time debate is surreal. Judging by the audience there is a sizeable proportion of the UK population willing to endure a destructive no deal Brexit just to see what happens.

FrancieBrady

Question time - Brexit has reached terminal velocity.

* This is not a one line post.

Itssoeasy

I would listen to BBC radio a good bit and more so then any other week this week on five live and radio 4 have been eye opening. There seems to be a good section of people in the U.K. going on what people say on the radio who go from not being read up on the issue of brexit to just living in same fantasy land. It's actually frightening that the same false statements are used and few if any are properly challenged. One contribution ended with the reason why the eu should've been in their eyes more respectful to Theresa May is "two world wars...."

wiggle16

Strazdas wrote: »

It does mean that, yes and Norwegians did suggest they would have a problem with it.

It would be a bizarre solution though. Why would the UK leave the EU to join the Single Market? It clearly would be a worse deal than EU membership.

Exactly. It would defeat the purpose of leaving at all. They gain nothing from a Norway deal and are still landed with all the stuff they don't want, like freedom of movement.

Whatever way it works out it's going to be impossible to sell it to the British public after the fact.

I've always felt a little sorry for Theresa May. She has made inexcusably terrible decisions but at the same time she has been put in an impossible position, you can actually see it's put years on her. She's been humiliated over and over again and her political career is extinct. And she was a Remainer.

Would they actually get a Norway EFTA arrangement now though? Surely that would take a long time to sort out? Not to mention Theresa May might actually drop dead if they ship her off the Brussels just to be told "Nein, Madam!" once again.

Mr.Nice Guy

Really unimpressed with Fiona Bruce. Seems to be more interested in playing to the gallery and getting some quips in for cheap laughs. Was hoping for a bit more maturity than this. Maybe the praise she got for her debut performance has gone to her head.

Strazdas

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Seems apparent there's a sizeable chunk of the UK population that want no deal. The support for it in the Commons might be small but they operate under a FPTP system rather than a proportional one. I don't think that body reflects the wider public sentiment.

Listening to Question Time it's clear they've fallen for the charlatans and snake-oil salesmen hook, line and sinker. One member still trotting out the unicorn about the German car manufacturers coming to the rescue.

I really think the UK is on its last legs. I can't see a nation with sense like Scotland wanting to be tied to this circus for much longer. I just hope the majority in NI reach the same conclusion as it's tragic that our destiny on this island is affected by the opinions of people like Isabel Oakeshott.

It's insane stuff. There seems to be millions of "not very bright people" (ahem) getting their information from the British right wing press and basing their entire world view on it. It's a toxic mix.

speckled_park

Loudest cheer on qt was for a no deal brexit. 😭

Shelga

The BBC’s coverage is farcical now and reflects Brexit in general- heavy on emotions, extremely light on facts.

Or as Leavers put it- ‘Project Fear’.

Even if the CEOs of Toyota, JLR, Nissan etc announced in April that they were shutting some of their UK factories directly because of leaving the EU with no deal, you would have cretins saying that they are lying/didn’t actually mean that.

It’s the most rabid, bizarre form of cognitive dissonance.

Strazdas

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I would listen to BBC radio a good bit and more so then any other week this week on five live and radio 4 have been eye opening. There seems to be a good section of people in the U.K. going on what people say on the radio who go from not being read up on the issue of brexit to just living in same fantasy land. It's actually frightening that the same false statements are used and few if any are properly challenged. One contribution ended with the reason why the eu should've been in their eyes more respectful to Theresa May is "two world wars...."

This is really bad news for the UK though. There are times when you think they might just be able to extricate themselves from the mess, but when you hear the opinions of what seems like millions of their citizens, you'd have to fear it's all going to kick off in a bad way this year......vast numbers of idiots with fixed and dogmatic views demanding that their "will" be obeyed.

Mr.Nice Guy

Strazdas wrote:

It's insane stuff. There seems to be millions of "not very bright people" (ahem) getting their information from the British right wing press and basing their entire world view on it. It's a toxic mix.

It's very disturbing. Don't know if it was posted but on Newsnight earlier a member of the public said the country needed another Cromwell and Enoch Powell to step forward.

https://twitter.com/LiamMcKee/status/1086031283422138368


It's sad and also troubling what is happenin right now. I'm concerned where this will end up.

Capt'n Midnight

wiggle16 wrote: »

And she was a Remainer.

Would they actually get a Norway EFTA arrangement now though? Surely that would take a long time to sort out? Not to mention Theresa May might actually drop dead if they ship her off the Brussels just to be told "Nein, Madam!" once again.

Nah still don't buy the remainer bit.

Norway in theory means getting it past the EU 27 and the 4 EFTA
In practice Norway won't get past any of the UK's red lines.


Norway++ that passes any of May's red lines means Norway, the Swiss and Turkey will freak out at any cherry picking getting unless there are going to get the same deal or there are some very serious strings attached.

Russman

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This Question Time debate is surreal. Judging by the audience there is a sizeable proportion of the UK population willing to endure a destructive no deal Brexit just to see what happens.

It’s actually frightening to watch. One guy saying that the EU is in recession and now is the time to apply maximum pressure to them - “WTF” doesn’t even begin to cover it.
Of the panel, the Scottish girl is the only one speaking any sense at all, actually the guy at the far left of the screen, can’t remember his name, was fairly clued in too, while Abbott is really showing up how poor Labour are right now.

I think at this stage, let them crash out and learn the hard way.

Capt'n Midnight

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It's very disturbing. Don't know if it was posted but on Newsnight earlier a member of the public said the country needed another Cromwell and Enoch Powell to step forward.
...


It's sad and also troubling what is happenin right now. I'm concerned where this will end up.

Cromwell is it ?

Hard Brexit and we'll use our veto in any future EU trade deals. :P
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ahern-says-he-did-not-leave-cook-s-office-over-cromwell-1.893792

The introduction of Dr Ó Siochrú's book details an incident whereby the newly elected taoiseach staged a walkout from the office of the foreign secretary upon seeing the portrait hanging, and refused to return until "that murdering bastard" had been removed.

tipp_tipp_tipp

Hi folks, so I'm just after watching Andrew Neill interview JRM. Link to the YT video is below. I've heard him going on all about dropping all tariffs for goods the UK doesn't produce, and it crops up again in this interview. I find this kinda fascinating as a concept. Anyone on here with some expertise in this area that can describe what could happen if such a policy was implemented by the UK??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5CEvdpQmRs

Tell me how

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/LiamMcKee/status/1086031283422138368

Watch the guy in the background at 33 seconds when she says they need Cromwell.