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Brexit Discussion Thread VI
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at what point in the following year is the average UK citizen going to notice the UK's new relationship to the EU having a significant effect on their day to day lives?
Assuming that the UK Government decides to keep calm and carry on:
Within a month there will be empty shelves in Tesco and rationing at pharmacies and hospitals, troops protecting Government stockpiles.
Within two, there will be simple food rationing in shops (like one loaf per customer) and troops on the streets.
I'd say the riots will start in month three.0 -
OK. I get this. A few thoughts.I accept some of what you say. Unfortunately you scold me for how I frame my question and then evidence this by spinning what I said to mean ‘hard border’ - I never use this term because no one will tell me what constitutes hard and soft borders. Anyhow enough on my frustrations with you misrepresenting what I asked.
Can you not see my serious point I am a unionist (yes we are still the significant majority up here). I absolutely want to accommodate my nationalist friends and neighbours. But so many on here only care about how the Irish in the north feel with no concern whatsoever us brits feel. I could use your emotional paragraph above fairly much word for word to describe the downsides to my community of tieing us into an arrangement that detaches us from the rest of our country ie Uk.
Let me say this with genuine respect ‘try to put yourself in my shoes’. I am trying to put myself in you thinking but it is not easy.
1. What NI actually wants is no hard(er) border either between NI and RoI or between NI and GB. That, obviously, would be the best outcome for NI, and I think Unionists and Nationalists would both feel that.
2. That, I suspect, is the reason, or a part of the reason, why NI voted to Remain.
3. I admit to harbouring the unworthy suspicion that there may be some in NI who voted to Leave because, contrary to what I say above, they actually do want a hard(er) border with RoI, or other concrete measures which in some way elevate or prioritise British identity/connections with GB over Irish identity/connections with RoI. I’m talking here, obviously, of people who dislike the GFA and the settlement constructed upon it. I could be wrong. I hope I am.
4. Even given the Leave outcome of the referendum, it was still possible to proceed with Brexit on terms that didn’t require either border to be hardened, but the choice was made not to do that.
5. Right. Leaving unionism and nationalism aside, and trying to be dispassionate, if NI is to be forced into a situation where it must choose between a hard(er) border with RoI and a hard(er) border with GB, which should it prefer? I’d argue that it should prioritise keeping open the border with Ireland because, for a variety of reasons, the harder border with GB, unwelcome as it is, does less damage to NI, to the GFA and to the peace settlement than the harder border with RoI. It’s the lesser of two evils. (I can expand on this if you want.)
6. All the signs are that public opinion in NI favours the backstop, which suggests that I’m not alone in that analysis.
7. Still, regardless of which choice is eventually made, I think people in NI - nationalist or unionist - are entitled to be angry that they are forced to put up with the lesser evil when they didn’t have to be faced with any evil at all. Even if NI were allowed to choose which evil they consider the lesser (and, NB, you probably won’t be) NI is still damaged by the process and the outcome. And, if I were a unionist, I’d be feeling very strongly that (a) this is not good for the Union, and (b) the people who have forced NI into this position are playing fast and loose with the Union.
8. There’s a couple of issues here:
(a) In the decision to hold a Brexit referendum, and in the framing and conduct of the referendum, no thought was given to the particular concerns of NI, or to the health of the Union. (And this is true of the Union with Scotland and well as the Union with NI.) Those who attempted to raise such concerns were ignored or marginalised.
(b) After the referendum, given the nature of the Leave campaign, HMG had a wide discretion as to the kind of Brexit it would seek to implement. They didn’t have to choose a form of Brexit that must damage NI and that must damage the Union; a Brexit that would force the choice of which border to harden - other models were available. But they chose it anyway. And they chose that not in the interests of the UK (obviously) or even in the interests of Great Britain or of England, but in the interests of trying to avoid a split in the Tory party.
(c) The lesson from all this is how little NI counts for in the deliberations and decisions of at least the present UK government. And, obviously, that’s a lesson that, once taken on board, must tend to damage the Union. It’s richly ironic that the Conservative and Unionist Party, in alliance with the Democratic Unionist Party, has done more to damage and weaken the Union in three years than the IRA managed in thirty, but that’s how it is. I’d expect unionists to be depressed, angry and resentful of that.
9. So, putting myself in the shoes of a unionist, as you suggest, how do I think a unionist should feel? Three thoughts:
- First, it may be a bit late now, but on the question of Brexit a unionist should either have adopted a remainer position or favoured a Brexit that did not put NI in the present invidious position. Or a unionist could have been a remainer in the referendum campaign and then pivoted to favouring such a Brexit in light of the result.
- Secondly, as already suggested, a unionist is entitled to feel angry at the disdain for NI, and for the health and well-being of the Union, shown by HMG and by the Leave movement.
- Thirdly, we are where we are. If a choice must be made, a unionist should favour keeping the RoI border open and accepting a hardening of the GB border because (a) this does less immediate damage and (b) the hardening of the GB border will be less permanent; it will be easier to remedy in years to come. And both of these are, on balance, better outcomes for the Union.0 -
Do many on here genuinely not understand or are they pretending to not get it. How is it ok to put checks right through the middle of a country (Irish Sea) but not ok to have any checks whatsoever at an international border (roi / NI)??
It is a calculated risk. If there is a border on the island then there will be violence. If there is a border in the Irish Sea there may be violence. I prefer to not have to worry in addition to what economic impact the UK will force on us on my personal safety. The world is off tilt already without having to worry about that.I accept some of what you say. Unfortunately you scold me for how I frame my question and then evidence this by spinning what I said to mean ‘hard border’ - I never use this term because no one will tell me what constitutes hard and soft borders. Anyhow enough on my frustrations with you misrepresenting what I asked.
Can you not see my serious point I am a unionist (yes we are still the significant majority up here). I absolutely want to accommodate my nationalist friends and neighbours. But so many on here only care about how the Irish in the north feel with no concern whatsoever us brits feel. I could use your emotional paragraph above fairly much word for word to describe the downsides to my community of tieing us into an arrangement that detaches us from the rest of our country ie Uk.
Let me say this with genuine respect ‘try to put yourself in my shoes’. I am trying to put myself in you thinking but it is not easy.
Result - Remain 56% - Leave 44%. There is your political mandate on what is best for your country. As for your voice and concern, please don't worry as the DUP has the government right where they want them. Nothing can realistically be done without their say and that is why we are where we are.
As for seeing it from your point of view, let me say that nationality is a feeling more than anything else. If you feel less British because you have to go through customs checks when you travel to the UK then that is up to you and you alone. I don't know whether the people in France feel less French due to the EU, or people in Germany feel less German because of rules being made in Brussels instead of Berlin. It shouldn't because where rules are made doesn't change who you are. If you feel British then you will always be British whether there is a border in the sea or on land.0 -
Nationalists by and large did not vote for this mess. The protestant, unionist people did. Brexit was close run. Those votes mattered immensely in getting Brexit over the line. Now you are crying over milk your people spilled themselves.I accept some of what you say. Unfortunately you scold me for how I frame my question and then evidence this by spinning what I said to mean ‘hard border’ - I never use this term because no one will tell me what constitutes hard and soft borders. Anyhow enough on my frustrations with you misrepresenting what I asked.
Can you not see my serious point I am a unionist (yes we are still the significant majority up here). I absolutely want to accommodate my nationalist friends and neighbours. But so many on here only care about how the Irish in the north feel with no concern whatsoever us brits feel. I could use your emotional paragraph above fairly much word for word to describe the downsides to my community of tieing us into an arrangement that detaches us from the rest of our country ie Uk.
Let me say this with genuine respect ‘try to put yourself in my shoes’. I am trying to put myself in you thinking but it is not easy.0 -
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Peregrinus wrote: »OK. I get this. A few thoughts.
1. What NI actually wants is no hard(er) border either between NI and RoI or between NI and GB. That, obviously, would be the best outcome for NI, and I think Unionists and Nationalists would both feel that.
2. That, I suspect, is the reason, or a part of the reason, why NI voted to Remain.
3. I admit to harbouring the unworthy suspicion that there may be some in NI who voted to Leave because, contrary to what I say above, they actually do want a hard(er) border with RoI, or other concrete measures which in some way elevate or prioritise British identity/connections with GB over Irish identity/connections with RoI. I’m talking here, obviously, of people who dislike the GFA and the settlement constructed upon it. I could be wrong. I hope I am.
4. Even given the Leave outcome of the referendum, it was still possible to proceed with Brexit on terms that didn’t require either border to be hardened, but the choice was made not to do that.
5. Right. Leaving unionism and nationalism aside, and trying to be dispassionate, if NI is to be forced into a situation where it must choose between a hard(er) border with RoI and a hard(er) border with GB, which should it prefer? I’d argue that it should prioritise keeping open the border with Ireland because, for a variety of reasons, the harder border with GB, unwelcome as it is, does less damage to NI, to the GFA and to the peace settlement than the harder border with RoI. It’s the lesser of two evils. (I can expand on this if you want.)
6. All the signs are that public opinion in NI favours the backstop, which suggests that I’m not alone in that analysis.
7. Still, regardless of which choice is eventually made, I think people in NI - nationalist or unionist - are entitled to be angry that they are forced to put up with the lesser evil when they didn’t have to be faced with any evil at all. Even if NI were allowed to choose which evil they consider the lesser (and, NB, you probably won’t be) NI is still damaged by the process and the outcome. And, if I were a unionist, I’d be feeling very strongly that (a) this is not good for the Union, and (b) the people who have forced NI into this position are playing fast and loose with the Union.
8. There’s a couple of issues here:
(a) In the decision to hold a Brexit referendum, and in the framing and conduct of the referendum, no thought was given to the particular concerns of NI, or to the health of the Union. (And this is true of the Union with Scotland and well as the Union with NI.) Those who attempted to raise such concerns were ignored or marginalised.
(b) After the referendum, given the nature of the Leave campaign, HMG had a wide discretion as to the kind of Brexit it would seek to implement. They didn’t have to choose a form of Brexit that must damage NI and that must damage the Union; a Brexit that would force the choice of which border to harden - other models were available. But they chose it anyway. And they chose that not in the interests of the UK (obviously) or even in the interests of Great Britain or of England, but in the interests of trying to avoid a split in the Tory party.
(c) The lesson from all this is how little NI counts for in the deliberations and decisions of at least the present UK government. And, obviously, that’s a lesson that, once taken on board, must tend to damage the Union. It’s richly ironic that the Conservative and Unionist Party, in alliance with the Democratic Unionist Party, has done more to damage and weaken the Union in three years than the IRA managed in thirty, but that’s how it is. I’d expect unionists to be depressed, angry and resentful of that.
9. So, putting myself in the shoes of a unionist, as you suggest, how do I think a unionist should feel? Three thoughts:
- First, it may be a bit late now, but on the question of Brexit a unionist should either have adopted a remainer position or favoured a Brexit that did not put NI in the present invidious position. Or a unionist could have been a remainer in the referendum campaign and then pivoted to favouring such a Brexit in light of the result.
- Secondly, as already suggested, a unionist is entitled to feel angry at the disdain for NI, and for the health and well-being of the Union, shown by HMG and by the Leave movement.
- Thirdly, we are where we are. If a choice must be made, a unionist should favour keeping the RoI border open and accepting a hardening of the GB border because (a) this does less immediate damage and (b) the hardening of the GB border will be less permanent; it will be easier to remedy in years to come. And both of these are, on balance, better outcomes for the Union.
I can’t respond to all of above as I’m just typing on my phone. But let me take a few briefly.
I understand why you are concerned that border is being used by brexiteers i genuinely believe it is not. But do you understand that I believe very many remainers are abusing the gfa to suit their needs and threatening violence. There will be no significant violence no matter what the outcome. It’s over. Well at least for another generation I can’t predict beyond that.
So stop trying to use fear against a community who suffered 30 years of violence - I actually never hear this argument up here because people know the reality
You talk of anger against gb. The thing we are angry about is that many of us took a big step and voted for gfa for peace and now we see roi supported by Europe using it for their own agenda
Do you realise you are asking NI residents to allow a settlement that could place us in a position for all time where EU make our rules but we have no MEPs and no democratic way to influence those rules. It’s hard to find that outside of a few countries like n Korea Would you accept signing up to such for your country?
Everyone just needs to wise up and trust each other. Dump the backstop and work out an arrangement that works for both UK and Eu with special attention to the needs of roi and NI But Eu blocked that discussion from day one as they want to make an example of UK so no one else tries to leave.
Maybe in a decade we roi also get out it will ease problems at the border.0 -
Nationalists by and large did not vote for this mess. The protestant, unionist people did. Brexit was close run. Those votes mattered immensely in getting Brexit over the line. Now you are crying over milk your people spilled themselves.
It’s really unhelpful and inaccurate to equate unionist with Protestant. But I suppose suits your narrative.
The evidence is that the prod majority had decreased over last 30 years but yet the support for staying in the UK has risen year on year. You are listening to too much shinner propaganda0 -
Result - Remain 56% - Leave 44%. There is your political mandate on what is best for your country.
You really need to take a step back from this spin. My country voted out.
If you replicate your argument to roi then those living in Connaught could say their country voted against abortion.
My whole country UK voted. It was close and some regions voted remain and some voted exit. Are you struggling to understand that?0 -
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Everyone just needs to wise up and trust each other.
The U.K. government has proven time after time that it can’t be trusted, making promises and reneging on them at every turn.
The EU is simply saying that nobody wants the backstop to be used, but since HMG are dysfunctional at the moment, it’s there just in case.0 -
downcow wrote:I can’t respond to all of above as I’m just typing on my phone. But let me take a few briefly. I understand why you are concerned that border is being used by brexiteers i genuinely believe it is not. But do you understand that I believe very many remainers are abusing the gfa to suit their needs and threatening violence. There will be no significant violence no matter what the outcome. It’s over. Well at least for another generation I can’t predict beyond that. So stop trying to use fear against a community who suffered 30 years of violence - I actually never hear this argument up here because people know the reality
Derry last Saturday night would seem to disagree with your above statement.
And how dare Ireland and the EU use a binding International Peace Treaty as voted in favour for on the entire island, and try to uphold the values and protect the peace it brought. :rolleyes:
You've absolutely no idea what you are talking about, with respect.0 -
It’s already the case, downcow, that more than half of the terrorist incidents recorded ever year in the whole of Europe happen in NI. I would very much hope that we will never see a return to what we saw in the 70s, 80s and 90s. But I wouldn’t share your confidence that we won’t suffer more violence. This is not something we can ever be complacent aboutI can’t respond to all of above as I’m just typing on my phone. But let me take a few briefly.
I understand why you are concerned that border is being used by brexiteers i genuinely believe it is not. But do you understand that I believe very many remainers are abusing the gfa to suit their needs and threatening violence. There will be no significant violence no matter what the outcome. It’s over. Well at least for another generation I can’t predict beyond that.
So stop trying to use fear against a community who suffered 30 years of violence - I actually never hear this argument up here because people know the reality
To be honest, I agree with you that the discourse in GB about this is excessively focussed on the possibility of return to violence. Perhaps that’s all they can understand about Ireland, or all they really care about but, either way, that’s a very unbalanced discourse. Yes, the possibility of a return to violence is an issue, but there’s much more than that at stake here - the civic and social health of NI, the strength or weakness of the Union, the capacity of NI to function effectively as a democratic community. They don’t really engage with these things in GB (and perhaps the focus on violence doesn’t help with this) but that’s part of the problem.
Seriously, this is completely unbalanced. What you term the “agenda” of RoI is simply to continue the current state of affairs - the GFA, the peace settlement, the open border. It’s Brexiters who are insisting on changing things, remember; RoI is trying to preserve as much of the GFA settlement as it can.You talk of anger against gb. The thing we are angry about is that many of us took a big step and voted for gfa for peace and now we see roi supported by Europe using it for their own agenda
We’re not asking you to do that; Brexiters are. We’d be quite happy with the continuation of the current state of affairs. Or with e.g. a Danish-model Brexit in which parts of the UK (e.g. England and Wales) leave the EU and other parts (NI, Scotland) remain in, with EP votes, MEPs, etc. Or with other solutions which don’t have the defect that you point to here. It’s the Westminster government, under the influence of Tory Brexiters, who have ruled out such solutions from the very beginning. (And you can be sure that what drives them to do that is not a warm concern for the interests and health of NI.)Do you realise you are asking NI residents to allow a settlement that could place us in a position for all time where EU make our rules but we have no MEPs and no democratic way to influence those rules. It’s hard to find that outside of a few countries like n Korea Would you accept signing up to such for your country?
The backstop is at attempt to work out an arrangement that works for both the UK and the EU. It has the rather tortured shape it has because it attempts to square the circle of May’s conflicting red lines, but that just reflects the fact that it’s a serious good-faith attempt to respect the UK’s position.Everyone just needs to wise up and trust each other. Dump the backstop and work out an arrangement that works for both UK and Eu with special attention to the needs of roi and NI
This, I’m afraid, is complete nonsense. You’ve been falling for Brexiter gaslighting propaganda. Far from “blocking discussion”, the EU has constantly been the driver of discussion, taking the initiative, bringing forward proposals, etc, while the UK government has been distinctly behind in doing so at every point of the process. And the EU has always made it clear that other alternatives to the backstop are possible if the UK can modify its red lines. All along, the EU has been more flexible on this than the UK.But Eu blocked that discussion from day one as they want to make an example of UK so no one else tries to leave.
It’s more likely, I think, that the UK will be coming back in. The Brexit process itself has been so astonishingly badly handled by the UK at every point along the way that it is hard to have much confidence in the conduct of the UK’s affairs post-Brexit. Even if a successful Brexit is possible, the quality of political leadership evident in the UK (on both sides of politics) makes it wildly unlikely that it can actually be delivered. I’m sorry to say it, but I don’t think this is going to go well for the UK.Maybe in a decade we roi also get out it will ease problems at the border.0 -
Zubeneschamali wrote: »Eh, no, the only constituency that voted against abortion was Donegal, which is in Ulster, not Connacht.
Ok so the point is the same.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »7. So important question becomes, what is May’s Plan C? If she secures the assent of the DUP but not of the ERG, the deal will be voted down again, and at that point May has to decide whether she will hew towards crash-out Brexit, or opt for revoking Art 50 or trying for a second referendum. From here point of view these are all appalling options; but she will just has to choose which is the least appalling.
Push it to the edge, then tell her parliament it's her deal or no deal, in the hope that the sensible option of her deal is chosen.0 -
Zubeneschamali wrote: »Eh, no, the only constituency that voted against abortion was Donegal, which is in Ulster, not Connacht.
Ok so the point is the same.
Do you understand the difference between a constituency and a constituent country?0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »It’s already the case, downcow, that more than half of the terrorist incidents recorded ever year in the whole of Europe happen in NI. I would very much hope that we will never see a return to what we saw in the 70s, 80s and 90s. But I wouldn’t share your confidence that we won’t suffer more violence. This is not something we can ever be complacent about
Here we are. the same old stuff again.
Without checking dates i cant be completely accurate but I understand there have been 3 killings claimed to be troubles related in NI in last decade plus. two were prison officers killed by republican druggies because they were unhappy with their treatment in prison. The most recent killing was a few months ago and was exported from your little drug war in Dublin which has killed far more in the last 2 years on this island than all the so-called terrorists put together in the last 2 decades.
Lets try to be realistic!0 -
Do you understand the difference between a constituency and a constituent country?
Do you understand that there are two internationally recognised nations on these Islands - UK and ROI
It would actually be a really helpful starting point I if I knew folks on here understood that - Even the EU understands that
So do you?0 -
Do you understand that there are two internationally recognised nations on these Islands - UK and ROI
It would actually be a really helpful starting point I if I knew folks on here understood that - Even the EU understands that
So do you?
Indeed, if the UK and it's electorate, understood that from the beginning, we wouldn't be where we are.
The DUP's inability to compromise on what is an abstract notion of attachment is what is stopping the UK from getting the Brexit it wants.0 -
Do many on here genuinely not understand or are they pretending to not get it. How is it ok to put checks right through the middle of a country (Irish Sea) but not ok to have any checks whatsoever at an international border (roi / NI)??You really need to take a step back from this spin. My country voted out.
Your country voted to Remain, by a significant majority. Unfortunately for you (and Scotland), the more populous and europhobic England voted to Leave and is dragging the rest of you with it.
And therein lies the answer to your "how is it OK..." question: the Irish Sea border does not put a line through the middle of any country, and that's why it's the best solution to a bad situation. Despite the oft-repeated slogan, NI is not British. It's one country in a political union of four countries and has the unique status in that union of being singled out in the title to emphasise how it is not part of Great Britain. Northern Ireland is not a region like the Lake District or Devon and Cornwall, it is a country in its own right, with its own parliament (.... :rolleyes:).
So your abortion analogy now becomes: "how can Ireland refuse to allow abortion when the other 27EU states permit it?" Easy - as it did until the situation was changed in the recent referendum.
Alternatively, you could ask: "how can one of the constituent countries of the UK not allow abortion or gay marriage when the other three do?" Answering that question opens up the possibility of applying different rules to the people and businesses of Northern Ireland in the Brexit negotiations, which - funnily enough - leads to the win-win of respecting the will of the people in NI and the maintaining the benefits of the GFA.0 -
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Here we are. the same old stuff again.
Without checking dates i cant be completely accurate but I understand there have been 3 killings claimed to be troubles related in NI in last decade plus. two were prison officers killed by republican druggies because they were unhappy with their treatment in prison. The most recent killing was a few months ago and was exported from your little drug war in Dublin which has killed far more in the last 2 years on this island than all the so-called terrorists put together in the last 2 decades.
Lets try to be realistic!
Just not true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissident_Irish_Republican_campaign#2009_onward0 -
The issue with the border was brought up during campaigning. Theresa May even brought it up during a visit to NI in June 2016:You talk of anger against gb. The thing we are angry about is that many of us took a big step and voted for gfa for peace and now we see roi supported by Europe using it for their own agenda
Do you realise you are asking NI residents to allow a settlement that could place us in a position for all time where EU make our rules but we have no MEPs and no democratic way to influence those rules. It’s hard to find that outside of a few countries like n Korea Would you accept signing up to such for your country?
Everyone just needs to wise up and trust each other. Dump the backstop and work out an arrangement that works for both UK and Eu with special attention to the needs of roi and NI But Eu blocked that discussion from day one as they want to make an example of UK so no one else tries to leave.
Maybe in a decade we roi also get out it will ease problems at the border.“Put simply, Northern Ireland outside the EU could not prevent free movement and continue with an open North/South Border. Not only does Northern Ireland rely on EU exports to a greater extent than nearly every other region of the UK, 50,000 jobs here are linked to EU trade,”
Of course May was campaigning for remain at the time, so just to give balance, here's what Boris Johnson said on the subject:"There's been a free travel area between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland for, I think, getting on for 100 years, There's no reason at all why that should cease to be the case." Northern Ireland farming relies heavily on EU subsidies, but Mr Johnson said NI farmers would be no worse off outside the EU and "in many ways better off".
"You would be able to target the subsidy and we'd be getting money back from the EU that currently goes to Brussels and goes on heaven knows what,"
And this is what Theresa Villers said before the vote:
And of course David Davis who thought that... well... not sure what he thought, work it out for yourself:"I believe that the land border with Ireland can remain as free-flowing after a Brexit vote as it is today, There is no reason why we have to change the border arrangements in the event of a Brexit because they have been broadly consistent in the 100 years since the creation of Ireland as a separate state.
It's in the interest of both countries to keep an open border and there's no reason for that to change if the people of this country were to exercise their freedom to vote to leave the EU.""one of our really challenging issues . . . will be the internal border we have with southern Ireland"
However, once he figured out that Ireland was actually a different country, he had this to say in March 2017:"I am confident that actually the two nations and the (European) Commission between them will be able to solve this because we really want to, because the technology is better than it was 20 years ago and because we all understand the value of it. We are not going to do anything which jeopardises the peace process."
And since no collection of quotes is complete without a Nigel Farage one, this is what he said in NI when pressed about the effects on business:“This referendum is about politics, it’s not about business, investment or trade any more than the argument that Britain should join the euro was.”
So to say that this is a non-issue invented by the EU and Ireland is to ignore the fact that everyone (including arch-brexiters) were admitting that it was in fact an issue that needed to be resolved in statements they made before and after the referendum. In fairness, most brexiters just completely ignored the subject and/or conflated it with the CTA and waved it away when questioned before the referendum. Or just showed complete ignorance on the subject.
All those quotes were made between January 2016 and March 2017. Before any talks started with the EU.0 -
downcow wrote:Do you understand that there are two internationally recognised nations on these Islands - UK and ROI It would actually be a really helpful starting point I if I knew folks on here understood that - Even the EU understands that So do you?
It would help if the hard line Brexiteers recognised that too - and if they recognised that they are not dealing just with the ROI but with the 27 country strong economic union of which it is part.
Any technological or administrative solution that safeguards the GFA also safeguards the integrity of the UK. The same invisible checks proposed for goods crossing the Irish border can be even more easily applied to goods crossing the Irish Sea. Much more easily.0 -
I see Labour's leadership are slowly but surely edging closer to facilitating a second referendum.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-labour-second-referendum-peoples-vote-jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may-commons-a8739956.html0 -
There is serious whataboutery going on here.
I am simply stating what i understand as facts.
ie
1)to all intense and purpose the troubles are over and the current generation will not lend its support to another murderous sectarian campaign
2) The UK voted out (regions swung both ways)
3) the vote was close both overall and in the regions and therefore we need to work hard to respect both
4) another referendum would be ridiculous. As ridiculous as it would have been for the anti GFA people to call for a new referendum eg at the time we were all watching murderers being released two years in which my have swung it the other way in the North
5) i believe most people, brexiteers included, would accept some sensible additional checks at the Irish Sea - but we need to see some compromise of sharing some checking maybe at NI border and even some at ROI France border. Current ROI position reeks of arrogace and is winding people up
6)NI cannot be in a situation where they are separated from UK with EU making the rules and no democratic representation.
Is any of that inaccurate or unreasonable?0 -
There is serious whataboutery going on here.
I am simply stating what i understand as facts.
ie
1)to all intense and purpose the troubles are over and the current generation will not lend its support to another murderous sectarian campaign
2) The UK voted out (regions swung both ways)
3) the vote was close both overall and in the regions and therefore we need to work hard to respect both
4) another referendum would be ridiculous. As ridiculous as it would have been for the anti GFA people to call for a new referendum eg at the time we were all watching murderers being released two years in which my have swung it the other way in the North
5) i believe most people, brexiteers included, would accept some sensible additional checks at the Irish Sea - but we need to see some compromise of sharing some checking maybe at NI border and even some at ROI France border. Current ROI position reeks of arrogace and is winding people up
6)NI cannot be in a situation where they are separated from UK with EU making the rules and no democratic representation.
Is any of that inaccurate or unreasonable?
can you highlight where the serious whataboutery is that you referred to?
unless you're referring to your own
only two posts back you tried having a go at "what about crime in Dublin" in what can only be described as whataboutery - whataboutery that served zero purpose as it went but whataboutery all the same
are there other instances you can highlight?0 -
I think, as Pereginus pointed out, that there is too much focus on the potential return to violence. Not that it shouldn't be a serious and major part of the discussion, but that it shouldn't be the sole component of any discussion and it seems to be taking away from the discussion of the other effects.
Not everyone in NI was involved in the violence during the troubles, but even with the vast majority not being involved, the division between the communities was stark. Their was clear division and distrust between NI and ROI, and between ROI and the UK. The GFA has played a massive role in breaking these down (there is more to do). Brexit, and a hard border in particular, has the very real risk of reversing the gains made and returning the NI to the divided country that it used to be.
And for what? What will the NI gain from Brexit? I haven't seen anything to say it will gain anything. At best it might only be effected in a small negative way. And one only has to look at the SNP in the HoC to see how representatives are treated when they are of no direct use to the government.
Downcow, can you state what you believe the benefits to NI will be from Brexit as I am at a loss and I think most posters on here are as well?
It always strikes me as odd that one of the main cries of Brexiteers in taking back sovereignty, and thus Ni leave voters did the same, yet they seem totally fine with Stormont being mothballed, effectively handing over full sovereignty to London!0 -
Do you understand that there are two internationally recognised nations on these Islands - UK and ROI
The UK is not a nation. It is a United Kingdom made up of three nations and a chunk of a fourth.
That's why the English national team can play the Scottish one at rugby, soccer or cricket.
It's why, when May trash talks the backstop, she talks about its potential impact on our Union if Northern Ireland is treated differently from the rest of the UK.
She doesn't talk about dividing the Nation, but about weakening the Union between different nations (or in NIs case, a bit of one.)
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I think, as Pereginus pointed out, that there is too much focus on the potential return to violence. Not that it should be a serious and major part of the discussion, but that it shouldn't be the sole component of any discussion.
Not everyone in NI was involved in the violence during the troubles, but even with the vast majority not being involved, the division between the communities was stark. Their was clear division and distrust between NI and ROI, and between ROI and the UK. The GFA has played a massive role in breaking these down (there is more to do). Brexit, and a hard border in particular, has the very real risk of reversing the gains made and returning the NI to the divided country that it used to be.
And for what? What will the NI gain from Brexit? I haven't seen anything to say it will gain anything. At best it might only be effected in a small negative way. And one only has to look at the SNP in the HoC to see how representatives are treated when they are of no direct use to the government.
Downcow, can you state what you believe the benefits to NI will be from Brexit as I am at a loss and I think most posters on here are as well?
It always strikes me as odd that one of the main cries of Brexiteers in taking back sovereignty, and thus Ni leave voters did the same, yet they seem totally fine with Stormont being mothballed, effectively handing over full sovereignty to London!
I think we can agree that most Unionist Brexiteering types in NI freely interchange sovereignty with identity...
taking back sovereignty for a Unionist means more about reaffirming their identity than it does self governance0 -
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6)NI cannot be in a situation where they are separated from UK with EU making the rules and no democratic representation.
Yes, they can. What you really mean is you wouldn't like it, personally.
But a majority of people in NI don't want to be dragged out of the EU by the English. They certainly don't want to see a return of the Border.0
This discussion has been closed.
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