Brexit Discussion Thread VI

abff

The rhetoric coming from Theresa May regarding "respecting the will of the people" has been driving me mad. But I chanced upon an even more annoying turn of phrase when watching Sky News just now.

Sir John Redwood, a Conservative MP, was being interviewed alongside a Labour MP, Chuka Umanna, who pointed out the misinformation that was trotted out about NHS funding, etc. in the run up to the Brexit vote. The parting shot from Sir John was that "what solves it is parliament growing up, accepting the verdict of the British people and just doing it."

I don't know why this particularly bothered me, given all the claptrap that has been trotted out by the Brexiters over the past few years, but the suggestion that it's childish to want to revisit the issue just irritates me.

I'd love to know what other people think of this.

Water John

Yeah TM talking of 2nd Ref as being 'a risk to social cohesion'. FFS social cohesion went out the Brexit window a long time ago.

Tell me how

abff wrote: »

Sir John Redwood, a Conservative MP, was being interviewed alongside a Labour MP, Chuka Umanna, who pointed out the misinformation that was trotted out about NHS funding, etc. in the run up to the Brexit vote. The parting shot from Sir John was that "what solves it is parliament growing up, accepting the verdict of the British people and just doing it."

All (Most might be more accurate as Water John pointed out) members of Parliament are very much in the position where their true colours are to the forefront when it comes to discussing Brexit.

Whatever it is they say is only to try to coerce others in to delivering what their desired outcome is. Check out some of the words from Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Corbyn, Sammy Wilson etc to see examples of this. (Sammy in particular talking about how the Dup are fighting in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland when the majority voted to remain is one of the most bare-faced lie examples.)
Theresa May herself has removed the impending peerage from John Bercow in a childish act to penalise him for what she sees as him being biased in chairing the discussions in the House.

It is not just parliament, newspaper columnists, radio and tv hosts and reporters are all making statements which makes you think, "Hang on, aren't they supposed to be impartial"

SimonTemplar

Is there any valid path to a 2nd ref at this stage?

J Mysterio

The idea that Ireland will themselves start building a physical border across this country is just absolutely unthinkable.

And to be forced into such a position by the UK is an absolute bloody outrage

Perfidious Albion are absolutely hugely screwing us over again in Brexit. It's absolutely unacceptable.

Im wondering if Taoiseach and or Coveney can address Parliament or if we should propose suvh a thing. Imagine the opportunity of spelling out this unmitigated disaster to them and giving a piece of our mind.

We have to be direct now, we've bit our tongue for quite some time and have observed the diplomatic niceties, as the utter shambles and bloody madness unfolded across the water.

I'm worried it's all going to descend into utter chaos now. The societal anger and panic of a No Deal would be frightening and then couple that with some violence. The recent bomb in Derry and accompanying events has me concerned, that shìt is stirring. There are a lot of people about with strong views and limited intellect, be they nationalist, unionist, Brexiteer, 'Remainer'. This is getting completely out of hand, out of control.

UK needs someone to slap it across the face and shout 'snap out of it!'.

Water John

There are other voices to listen to besides the lovely list that you mention.
Starmer, Soubry, Umunna, Grieve in politics. For commentary Abell, Dunt, Conneelly.

Tell me how

SimonTemplar wrote: »

Is there any valid path to a 2nd ref at this stage?

Labour back benchers have enough of Corbyn's incompetence and oust him with a mandate to put a/the deal to the people in the form of a referendum after a GE.

Here's a stab at a potential ballot paper.

Option 1 - I accept the terms of the deal to leave the EU as has been negotiated with the EU and want to leave the EU

Option 2 - I do not accept the terms of the deal but want to leave the EU without an alternative deal being negotiated

Option 3 - I want to remain in the EU

Good fun getting a clear majority from that. :cool:

J Mysterio

Theresa May is now basically saying 'this is all I got'. So... Accept it or just do what you want'.

Tell me how

Water John wrote: »

There are other voices to listen to besides the lovely list that you mention.
Starmer, Soubry, Umunna, Grieve in politics. For commentary Abell, Dunt, Conneelly.

Yes, but we might be more inclined in listening to those because they are advocating for what we think is best. They are equally accused by self-motivated behaviours as those on the first list.

That is why it is such a mess isn't it. Everyone can say what they want and even those speaking the truth (as I personally believe those on your lost do) others decry them and say they are lying.

It is very hard for those not really motivated in wading through various arguments to determine what the truth is.

Water John

Don't agree, TM wants every other option save Her Deal and No Deal to be the 2 left standing. That she is being outmanouvered is not her doing or wish.

SimonTemplar

Tell me how wrote: »

Labour back benchers have enough of Corbyn's incompetence and oust him with a mandate to put a/the deal to the people in the form of a referendum after a GE.

Let's say Corbyn is ousted and is replaced with a pro-2nd ref leader. How can that person trigger a GE? It doesn't matter who the Labour leader is, after winning the vote of no confidence, TM can't be forced by Labour to call a GE.

trellheim

This is really starting to look like a dumpster fire about to fall off the cliff - I dont see a way around no deal now . Prep for the worst !

Irishmale0399

Lads if there is no deal then a hard border has to be in place. That is the very reason that the Irish government are saying all along that they are part of the EU and the deal is on the table........if it gots tits up its the UKs fault.

The Irish army are scouting the border crossings for months now.....they have a plan in place for the worst case if you can believe whats is being said by lads in the barracks in Dundalk. Merkel also said months ago in the event of a no deal situation the EU would send border police officers to Ireland to support the transition. The UK have more at stake than Ireland does.

As for rumours that Aldi and Lidl wont be able to deliver to Ireland.......I know and have seen one of the plans in place. They will move all goods through France directly to Ireland. Added to this they have their warehouses well stocked.......

Tell me how

SimonTemplar wrote: »

Let's say Corbyn is ousted and is replaced with a pro-2nd ref leader. How can that person trigger a GE? It doesn't matter who the Labour leader is, after winning the vote of no confidence, TM can't be forced by Labour to call a GE.

Only by repeating motions of no confidence in the Government. But, given a desire to hold power being paramount in WM, it will require some more to cross the line and rebel.

Not many, but some.

Water John

Everyone is playing, on the basis of ruling out the other options. Thus a 2nd Ref will trump a Crash out Brexit in the HOC. May is playing that her deal will trump Crash out Brexit. A 2nd Ref will trump TM's Deal. A soft Brexit will trump TM's Deal.
The HOC seems to be now getting a means by which these choices can be expressed.
These are the scenarios.

brickster69

Nody wrote: »

The Irish government has know this would always be the case if there is no deal and they will implement it accordingly and it has been a well known fact since day 1 for people who bothered to check the basic understanding of how EU operates. There's a reason why Ireland pushed so hard for the backstop to be in the requirements because if not it would be a hard border by default in the agreement.

Not according to these 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ljJhZZo5s

Fr_Dougal

Would a 2nd referendum not make Scotland more likely to go for another independence vote?

RobMc59

J Mysterio wrote: »

The idea that Ireland will themselves start building a physical border across this country is just absolutely unthinkable.

And to be forced into such a position by the UK is an absolute bloody outrage

Perfidious Albion are absolutely hugely screwing us over again in Brexit. It's absolutely unacceptable.

Im wondering if Taoiseach and or Coveney can address Parliament or if we should propose suvh a thing. Imagine the opportunity of spelling out this unmitigated disaster to them and giving a piece of our mind.

We have to be direct now, we've bit our tongue for quite some time and have observed the diplomatic niceties, as the utter shambles and bloody madness unfolded across the water.

I'm worried it's all going to descend into utter chaos now. The societal anger and panic of a No Deal would be frightening and then couple that with some violence. The recent bomb in Derry and accompanying events has me concerned, that shìt is stirring. There are a lot of people about with strong views and limited intellect, be they nationalist, unionist, Brexiteer, 'Remainer'. This is getting completely out of hand, out of control.

UK needs someone to slap it across the face and shout 'snap out of it!'.

All this about a physical border is confusing-is it true that if the EU insist on this that Ireland will have to pay for the upkeep and policing of it?

prawnsambo

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

As for rumours that Aldi and Lidl wont be able to deliver to Ireland.......I know and have seen one of the plans in place. They will move all goods through France directly to Ireland. Added to this they have their warehouses well stocked.......

Musgraves also have their plans in place. So that's all Super Valus and Centras etc. And I doubt Dunnes have been sitting on their hands. The real problems will be for Tesco and M&S. They're tied to UK supply chains.

prawnsambo

RobMc59 wrote: »

All this about a physical border is confusing-is it true that if the EU insist on this that Ireland will have to pay for the upkeep and policing of it?

Pretty much. I would assume that financial and logistical assistance would be provided at the outset and possibly for as long as needed, but we will have to spend the money first.

Irishmale0399

prawnsambo wrote: »

Musgraves also have their plans in place. So that's all Super Valus and Centras etc. And I doubt Dunnes have been sitting on their hands. The real problems will be for Tesco and M&S. They're tied to UK supply chains.

Thats only a small part of the market. People may not be able to shop where they want but they should be able to get 99% of their needs.


I have asked twice before and I asked it last week on German radio when asked for my opinion......


What does the UK supply or offer to the EU that the EU cannot supply or offer itself??? What have the UK got the that the rest of the EU is dependant on???

Hurrache

prawnsambo wrote: »

Musgraves also have their plans in place. So that's all Super Valus and Centras etc. And I doubt Dunnes have been sitting on their hands. The real problems will be for Tesco and M&S. They're tied to UK supply chains.

Tesco have a large amount of Irish suppliers, all their meats and fruits are sourced via Ireland, Keelings and Country Crest for example.

Where they may have issues are with some of their ambient and non food stuff, but then too will Musgraves and Dunnes. Tesco won't be affected any more than those I don't think.

Plus they have an absolutely massive distribution centre in Donnabate which they can load up. As it is it's so big they lease some of the space.

M&S though would be in trouble, their stuff comes straight from the boat I think.

Quin_Dub

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Thats only a small part of the market. People may not be able to shop where they want but they should be able to get 99% of their needs.


I have asked twice before and I asked it last week on German radio when asked for my opinion......


What does the UK supply or offer to the EU that the EU cannot supply or offer itself??? What have the UK got the that the rest of the EU is dependant on???

Realistically, in terms of day to day stuff, pretty much nothing.

Clearly certain brands might have availability issues , but alternative brands/versions are available from multiple other places..

FrancieBrady

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Thats only a small part of the market. People may not be able to shop where they want but they should be able to get 99% of their needs.


I have asked twice before and I asked it last week on German radio when asked for my opinion......


What does the UK supply or offer to the EU that the EU cannot supply or offer itself??? What have the UK got the that the rest of the EU is dependant on???

Was thinking about this myself and couldn't think of a single daily use product that you can't get a version of in Lidl or Aldi or elsewhere. We'll survive.

Enzokk

abff wrote: »

The rhetoric coming from Theresa May regarding "respecting the will of the people" has been driving me mad. But I chanced upon an even more annoying turn of phrase when watching Sky News just now.

Sir John Redwood, a Conservative MP, was being interviewed alongside a Labour MP, Chuka Umanna, who pointed out the misinformation that was trotted out about NHS funding, etc. in the run up to the Brexit vote. The parting shot from Sir John was that "what solves it is parliament growing up, accepting the verdict of the British people and just doing it."

I don't know why this particularly bothered me, given all the claptrap that has been trotted out by the Brexiters over the past few years, but the suggestion that it's childish to want to revisit the issue just irritates me.

I'd love to know what other people think of this.

For me it is the arrogance to claim the victory of the referendum when it was won on lies and then illegal funding to boot. The UK is supposed to the bastion of fair play and yet we can see quite clearly this is not true. That is what makes me scream at the screen whenever I see a Brexiter talking about how people knew what they voted for and they should just leave.

prawnsambo

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

What does the UK supply or offer to the EU that the EU cannot supply or offer itself??? What have the UK got the that the rest of the EU is dependant on???

You'd probably be looking at some building products, machinery and fittings. Mostly stuff that runs to imperial standard sizes or is unique to this part of the world and not used so much on the continent.

downcow

Lemming wrote: »

So, what you want is for Ireland to remove itself from the single market to suit the UK,to the absolute and total detriment of Ireland with the Irish people not consulted on the matter either. Oh, there's a position reeking of arrogance alright and it's not coming from Ireland.




But there is a border when it suits; phsytiosanitary checks are carried out at the NI border on livestock. To quote Paisley snr. "our cows are Irish" in reference to the BSE crisis. If you are from an agricultural background then you should be aware of this fact already, and its infamous history.



Speaking as someone living in Yorkshire for the better part of a decade now, whenever you [downcow] travel to the mainland UK, specifically England; you wont be viewed as British. Just Irish. You're as much a paddy as I am to them. I find that fact hysterical in just how tragic and sad it is; it's such a one-sided relationship for northern unionists.

You see we have very different starting points on how we view this you and me. You give far to much power to the English. I am British and n Irish fact! irrelevant of what an Englishman calls me. They don’t decide who is British. If I call him English it doesn’t mean he’s not British. Why do you care so much what English people call you. Be who you are whatever they think.

Water John

TM's Deal or No Deal are far more likely to boost the odds on another Indy vote in Scotland, more than a 2nd Ref. Same goes for NI.
I'd say a Hard Brexit or Crash out Brexit will go a long ways to finishing off the remnants of the empire by dismantling the Union of Home Countries.

Hurrache

Only Brexit would have EU spokespeople paraphrasing The Spice Girls when discussing the UK government
https://twitter.com/yourmeps/status/1087690126757687296?s=19

Irishmale0399

prawnsambo wrote: »

You'd probably be looking at some building products, machinery and fittings. Mostly stuff that runs to imperial standard sizes or is unique to this part of the world and not used so much on the continent.

Thats the point....and even if you dig deep you will probably find that the production centers are on mainland Europe.


The EU can easily supply Ireland with its needs and more than likely take it from away imperial standard.....a change at first but maybe cheaper in the longterm. Only industry that I can think of is limited to car industry, where certain parts are made for right hand drives. Maybe Ireland will change the driving side to mainstream with the EU....:D:D