Brexit Discussion Thread VI

prawnsambo

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Thats the point....and even if you dig deep you will probably find that the production centers are on mainland Europe.

The EU can easily supply Ireland with its needs and more than likely take it from away imperial standard.....a change at first but maybe cheaper in the longterm. Only industry that I can think of is limited to car industry, where certain parts are made for right hand drives. Maybe Ireland will change the driving side to mainstream with the EU....:D:D

Actually 2.5 billion people drive on the left hand side of the road. So not exactly a small market.

In the light of what EU Commission spokesman Margaritis Schinas said today about a hard border in the event of a no deal Brexit I think it will soon be time for our own government to have a more realistic position on this. Taoiseach Leo Varadkar’s spokesman coming out and saying: “We will not accept a hard border on this island and therefore we are not planning for one" simply isn't good enough at this stage IMO. The EU will expect the integrity of the SM & CU to be maintained, no exceptions.

Infini

prawnsambo wrote: »

Actually 2.5 billion people drive on the left hand side of the road. So not exactly a small market.

Changing sides of the road would probably be too prohibitive as well for us. Theres no real need to change either since it would also mean every road junction and traffic lights needing realignment not just cars.

Irishmale0399

prawnsambo wrote: »

Actually 2.5 billion people drive on the left hand side of the road. So not exactly a small market.

How many of those cars are in the EU???

prawnsambo

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

How many of those cars are in the EU???

Does that actually matter? The EU has trade agreements with another 60+ countries, many of whom are in that number.

Infini

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In the light of what EU Commission spokesman Margaritis Schinas said today about a hard border in the event of a no deal Brexit I think it will soon be time for our own government to have a more realistic position on this. Taoiseach Leo Varadkar’s spokesman coming out and saying: “We will not accept a hard border on this island and therefore we are not planning for one" simply isn't good enough at this stage IMO. The EU will expect the integrity of the SM & CU to be maintained, no exceptions.

In truth its all well saying this and that but DOING is going to be a completely different matter. We've well warned the consequences of trying to implent one and realistically in the event of one being forced out of practical concerns this should have a severe price on Britain if it comes to it in any future trade deal. The difference between a regular border and our own is that this is one whos existence has actual attacks on it as well as major opposition.

Realisitcally though if theres a Hard Border it is likely to speed up the end of partition though as all indicatiors have pushed a likely UI as the result of this.

That being said if sane heads in Westminster managed to get their way its likely that if time runs out A50 will be withdrawn by Parliment rather than crash out. Its politically toxic but the alternative is a self inflicted and needless economic disaster. When push comes to shove the ideologues get shafted ultimately in other situations.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

In the light of what EU Commission spokesman Margaritis Schinas said today about a hard border in the event of a no deal Brexit I think it will soon be time for our own government to have a more realistic position on this. Taoiseach Leo Varadkar’s spokesman coming out and saying: “We will not accept a hard border on this island and therefore we are not planning for one" simply isn't good enough at this stage IMO. The EU will expect the integrity of the SM & CU to be maintained, no exceptions.

Well if you read up the thread a bit, you'd find anecdotal reference to just such preparations being made. Plus an extra 300 customs officers were taken on last September.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well if you read up the thread a bit, you'd find anecdotal reference to just such preparations being made. Plus an extra 300 customs officers were taken on last September.

I've been been reading the thread most days and I'm aware of the extra officers, but the type of spin Varadkar's spokesman came out with today needs to end considering the clock is ticking down all the time.

Irishmale0399

prawnsambo wrote: »

Does that actually matter? The EU has trade agreements with another 60+ countries, many of whom are in that number.

Cheaper import costs for cars or parts from mainland EU if there is not trade deal with the UK.....

Hurrache

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In the light of what EU Commission spokesman Margaritis Schinas said today about a hard border in the event of a no deal Brexit I think it will soon be time for our own government to have a more realistic position on this. Taoiseach Leo Varadkar’s spokesman coming out and saying: “We will not accept a hard border on this island and therefore we are not planning for one" simply isn't good enough at this stage IMO. The EU will expect the integrity of the SM & CU to be maintained, no exceptions.

There's no doubt they have plans for one, but they're not going to say it publicly at this point.

briany

Infini wrote: »

In truth its all well saying this and that but DOING is going to be a completely different matter. We've well warned the consequences of trying to implent one and realistically in the event of one being forced out of practical concerns this should have a severe price on Britain if it comes to it in any future trade deal. The difference between a regular border and our own is that this is one whos existence has actual attacks on it as well as major opposition.

I know that the Irish government has vociferously stated their opposition to a hardening of the border on this island, but I'm not really sure how no border is workable from an Irish point of view. But I could be missing something, so am totally open to correction.

If the EU continues to take the sensitivity of the issue into consideration after the UK crashes out and allows the border to remain open, how does the EU ensure that goods from the UK aren't getting to the continent via this unique back door? Wouldn't it mean that Irish ports have to do the job of checking? How would port officials know? They'd need some sort of declaration of origin, wouldn't they? Where and how would that declaration be applied?

And if Irish ports were doing the checking, doesn't that pull Ireland slightly out of the EU along with the UK? I don't mean out out, obviously, but able to enjoy slightly less of the frictionless trade because of keeping an open border.

And would keeping the border open ruffle any feathers elsewhere in Europe? Are there any other EU nations that would like to have a more open border with a non-EU neighbour, owing to nationalism (e.g. a minority of their people living in that non-EU neighbour), and would complain that Ireland were getting special treatment? The EU seems to be very against bespoke arrangements for countries, such that it might undermine the integrity of the whole project.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

I've been been reading the thread most days and I'm aware of the extra officers, but the type of spin Varadkar's spokesman came out with today needs to end considering the clock is ticking down all the time.

They are walking a very fine line between allowing a chink to appear in the armour of the EU position and trying to ensure that there's a fall-back position if that fails. They can spin all they like as far as I'm concerned because the alternative is to allow the UK to dictate the agenda. And there's no point in broadcasting what the plans are and what's happening now, for exactly the same reasons. What would that gain? Why do you need to know?

RobMc59

prawnsambo wrote: »

You'd probably be looking at some building products, machinery and fittings. Mostly stuff that runs to imperial standard sizes or is unique to this part of the world and not used so much on the continent.

I wonder if all this will effect Ireland's domestic electric set up which currently uses the UK system-will everything change to two pin plugs?

An Claidheamh

downcow wrote: »

You see we have very different starting points on how we view this you and me. You give far to much power to the English. I am British and n Irish fact! irrelevant of what an Englishman calls me. They don’t decide who is British. If I call him English it doesn’t mean he’s not British. Why do you care so much what English people call you. Be who you are whatever they think.

Well firstly, YOU give too much power to the English, by consent of course.

Secondly, English/British people actually can decide if someone not from Britain is British.

Thirdly, you are Irish FACT. I gather that you don't really understand what a 'fact' is.

Lastly, English people call themselves English, Scottish call themselves Scottish, hearing someone with an Irish accent refer to themselves as 'British' is pretty laughable, like an American calling themselves "European".

prawnsambo

RobMc59 wrote: »

I wonder if all this will effect Ireland's domestic electric set up which currently uses the UK system-will everything change to two pin plugs?

No. Those aren't only manufactured in the UK. If they even are. And you can't really use two pin plugs on 240V AC. Far too dangerous.

An Claidheamh

Amprodude wrote: »

What is this I see in the news with the European commissioner saying that if there is no deal its obvious there will have to be hard border. The Irish government won't agree to this. what happens then after this? Will there be a reunification vote? In North and South of Ireland?

Hard Border must equal a border poll. Also, possibly Schengen.

If Fine Gael drag their heels and revert to their British apologist origins, Varadkar and Coveney can go.

Hurrache

Hurrache wrote: »

There's no doubt they have plans for one, but they're not going to say it publicly at this point.

Hopefully thats the case, because at some stage after a no deal Brexit a hard border will happen. I also thought Schinas' thoughts about the Good Friday Agreement in relation to the imposition of a hard border a little unsettling:

The Union's commitment to the Good Friday Agreement, "will have to take inevitably into account this fact", he added, while insisting the EU would stand behind the peace accords that followed three decades of civil conflict.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-ireland-commission/no-brexit-deal-means-hard-irish-border-eu-says-idUSKCN1PG1HE

An Claidheamh

Akrasia wrote: »

Will be great craic in Northern Ireland if no deal goes through. Not enough fuel to get to work, not enough electricity to power the factories, not enough food to eat, not enough police or security services to keep the sectarian violence under control.

And Arlene Foster will still get re-elected in the next general election.

Anyone else noticed that there will barely any transatlantic routes to avail of up there without Dublin airport.

And they want to attract FDI?

Reckon, Ireland should make it attractive and swift, to allow companies in the 6 counties to set up in the border counties.

Hurrache

An Claidheamh wrote: »

If Fine Gael drag their heels and revert to their British apologist origins, Varadkar and Coveney can go.

Ah would you stop with this.

Irishmale0399

An Claidheamh wrote: »

If Fine Gael drag their heels and revert to their British apologist origins, Varadkar and Coveney can go.

Personally think both are doing a great job under the circumstances

Seth Brundle

A few announcements regarding shipping into the UK.
Can't help thinking that the UK government have already taken the leap towards a no deal scenario...

https://twitter.com/SimonCalder/status/1087714660088975361?s=19

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1087805796619075587?s=19

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1087454996885635072?s=19

RobMc59

SNIP. Please read the charter before posting again.

funkey_monkey

I've been out all day and am just catching up on this.
Is it fair to say that Europe has blinked first on this issue? Reading r/UKpolitics on Reddit it appears that some are saying that as UK won't put up a hard border then it is Ireland who is breaking the GFA.
However, to me, it is a result of the UK actions that Ireland have to put up the hard border.

Also how does this align with the BREXIT promise to take back control of its borders and control immigration? How will the UK do that?

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

They are walking a very fine line between allowing a chink to appear in the armour of the EU position and trying to ensure that there's a fall-back position if that fails. They can spin all they like as far as I'm concerned because the alternative is to allow the UK to dictate the agenda. And there's no point in broadcasting what the plans are and what's happening now, for exactly the same reasons. What would that gain? Why do you need to know?

I fully understand that plans may not be revealed until it is necessary to do so, but the bottom line remains the EU will protect the integrity of the SM & CU. We will not get any leeway on this in the event of a no deal.

Seth Brundle

An Claidheamh wrote: »

If Fine Gael drag their heels and revert to their British apologist origins, Varadkar and Coveney can go.

Seriously what do you mean by that? There's nothing Ireland can do about it so long as we're separate to the UK on trade terms. This was always going to be the case if the UK crashed out without an agreement.
FG didn't chose that scenario. The British people and their politicians did by choosing the Brexit option (no matter how ill-informed it was).
By and large people are supportive of how the Irish government are handling Brexit (insofar as we can).
The Irish government were correct to say that we would not create a hard border. We didn't and won't. The EU will.

Hurrache

funkey_monkey wrote: »

I've been out all day and am just catching up on this.
Is it fair to say that Europe has blinked first on this issue? Reading r/UKpolitics on Reddit it appears that some are saying that as UK won't put up a hard border then it is Ireland who is breaking the GFA.
However, to me, it is a result of the UK actions that Ireland have to put up the hard border.

Also how does this align with the BREXIT promise to take back control of its borders and control immigration? How will the UK do that?

There's been no blinking, just the EU, as usual, admitting the reality of a no deal Brexit. Having an open border of course doesn't fit in with the taking back control idealogy, so as per my first point, I've yet to see a Brexiter acknowledging this gaping chasm in their logic when it comes to the border and WTO rules.

road_high

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Anyone else noticed that there will barely any transatlantic routes to avail of up there without Dublin airport.

And they want to attract FDI?

Reckon, Ireland should make it attractive and swift, to allow companies in the 6 counties to set up in the border counties.

Regularly sit beside Nordies on flights ...to England! The irony of it, having to go to an alleged “foreign” country to get to their “own” country- the ridiculousness of the non identity that is Northern Ireland

funkey_monkey

Hurrache wrote: »

There's been no blinking, just the EU, as usual, admitting the reality of a no deal Brexit. Having an open border of course doesn't fit in with the taking back control idealogy, so as per my first point, I've yet to see a Brexiter acknowledgement this gaping chasm in their logic when it comes to the border and WTO rules.

Thanks for the reply.
Have the WTO said they expect the UK to do similar? Surely the same rationale applies in reverse for the UK, despite them saying the UK would not be putting up a hard border.
I thought LV and Junker said they would not be putting up a hard border?

If Ireland put up a hard border who is contravening the GFA? Ireland for putting it up or the UK for putting Ireland in the awkward situation requiring them to do so.

Christy42

Both Ireland and the UK have had repeated claims about not putting up a border without any sort of back up of how this would work.

Honestly I think both know they are lying through their teeth but neither wants to be the first to admit it. I can see the first to admit getting a lot of the blame.

Hurrache

Christy42 wrote: »

Both Ireland and the UK have had repeated claims about not putting up a border without any sort of back up of how this would work.

Honestly I think both know they are lying through their teeth but neither wants to be the first to admit it. I can see the first to admit getting a lot of the blame.

Not lies, diplomacy and negotiations.