Brexit Discussion Thread VI

Leroy42

Those statements fro Murz, Verhostadt etc are good. The BBC and other journos in the UK have been pushing the idea that the EU is starting to falter in its resolve in relation to the backstop.

I think, part of this is down to the EU being open to an extension of A50. This seems to being viewed as a climbdown an an invitation to reopen the WA, when I think as it is is the EU trying to give TM the room for the HoC to actually come to some agreement.

As Barnier said yesterday, simply voting against something doesn't stop the exit, it is the default, and thus the UK need actually come to a position.

EdgeCase

Folkstonian wrote: »

Britain maintains an independent nuclear deterrent. It doesn’t rely on American GPS for targeting and doesn’t require any authorisation from America to be used. Why are you regurgitating a long disproved slur?

Well, if you want to go down the route towards being a slightly more bonkers version of modern Russia, that's one way to do it.

Threaten nuclear war on NATO members (while being a member of NATO) and have politicians making ridiculous about nationalising parts of multinational companies.

That's precisely how to behave as a rogue state and drive every bit of investment out of your country.

It's 2019, not 1819!

These kinds of statements are utterly risible !

lawred2

Folkstonian wrote: »

Britain maintains an independent nuclear deterrent. It doesn’t rely on American GPS for targeting and doesn’t require any authorisation from America to be used. Why are you regurgitating a long disproved slur?

What has nuclear launch abilities got to with Brexit? Seriously?

People's livelihoods and citizen's rights are what matters... not some teenage fantasies about war games.

aindriu80

What do you make of the polish leader Mateusz Morawiecki having a go at Ireland :

https://www.independent.ie/business/gavin-mcloughlin-leo-varadkar-was-brutally-undercut-by-his-polish-counterpart-in-front-of-the-worlds-most-influential-people-37745441.html

That country is starting to stink a lot for me

Hurrache

Leroy42 wrote: »

Those statements fro Murz, Verhostadt etc are good. The BBC and other journos in the UK have been pushing the idea that the EU is starting to falter in its resolve in relation to the backstop

I watched the ex PM of Finland, now European Investment Bank VP, speak about it today. The video is 5 minutes long but worth a watch I think. No diplomatic speak here, straight talking and had no time for the idea that the EU should move on the backstop, he said the issue with May's WA being hammered so much is not because of the backstop. He believes that the hard brexiteers have realised the mess they got themselves into. If he's saying this, the EU negotiation team are obviously thinking it too.

https://twitter.com/Brexit/status/1088394775558946816?s=19

EdgeCase

aindriu80 wrote: »

What do you make of the polish leader Mateusz Morawiecki having a go at Ireland :

https://www.independent.ie/business/gavin-mcloughlin-leo-varadkar-was-brutally-undercut-by-his-polish-counterpart-in-front-of-the-worlds-most-influential-people-37745441.html

That country is starting to stink a lot for me

I'd suggest they're probably annoyed that an Irish judge kicked them into touch over their courts reforms by referring an extradition case to the ECJ in a case that calls Poland's compliance with EU basic standards of democracy into question and then I would bring up their slight love affair with coal power stations and chopping down ancient forests, but I'm not a petty person so, I won't.

Folkstonian

EdgeCase wrote: »

Well, if you want to go down the route towards being a slightly more bonkers version of modern Russia, that's one way to do it.

Threaten nuclear war on NATO members (while being a member of NATO) and have politicians making ridiculous about nationalising parts of multinational companies.

That's precisely how to behave as a rogue state and drive every bit of investment out of your country.

It's 2019, not 1819!

These kinds of statements are utterly risible !

Not sure where I said I thought that it would be expedient or advantageous to declare nuclear war on our closest continental ‘neighbour’.

I simply corrected what read as a deliberate attempt to distort the truth and not a ‘tongue in cheek riposte’.

But anyway I’m getting quite fed up with the whole endeavour now. I’ve swung from being a remainer, to a Brexit supporter, back to a remainer, and back yet again to a Brexit supporter. I just want it to be over now and hope we salvage some kind of deal. It’s going to mean a few years of turbulence but that will just have to be negotiated.

I’m finding it ever harder to find the political dynamic of the European Union as agreeable prospect going forward. Geemany and France have ignited the afterburners on economic and military integration. Things that were written off as unhelpful and impossible scare stories just a few years ago are now being talked about by heads of state and willed on by influential MEPs.

I think we’ve got to a stage where there’s no going back, for anybody, and an extension of article 50 will be dreaded by all sides.

Leroy42

Yet another misleading and apparently anti-Irish re Brexit headline in the Indo.

I wonder what the thinking behind this agenda is? He wasn't undercut, Poland have a particular view and Ireland have another. It is very like an Express headline (Farage demolishes Remainers, TM teaches Corbyn a lesson, JRM makes a devastating point to prove remainers wrong) in its wording.

Clearly Ireland is under, and will continue to face increasing pressure, over our tax rates

downcow

Jmccoy1 wrote: »

So in effect they are proposing that the republic have a hard border with the rest of the EU. That would be disastrous for FDI and jobs within the republic. To hell with the north if that is the option being proposed.

I am finding it difficult to engage with this discussion. It seems people from ‘ireland’ can be as offensive as the wish towards Northern Ireland but dare us from the ‘north’ say a word that may be seen as disengeniois or we are reprimanded.
I know you guys are very frustrated about the direction of things but don’t shoot the messenger.
Tbh I am not rattled with being told to go to hell above or the other endless derogatory stuff about the north, our elected reps, our government, etc. But I think there needs to be a wee bit of openness to take it if you give it.
Guess that might be me in trouble again but when we are all gone you will be able to have nice discussions about how awful the brits are without anyone challenging the attitudes

Hurrache

aindriu80 wrote: »

What do you make of the polish leader Mateusz Morawiecki having a go at Ireland :

https://www.independent.ie/business/gavin-mcloughlin-leo-varadkar-was-brutally-undercut-by-his-polish-counterpart-in-front-of-the-worlds-most-influential-people-37745441.html

That country is starting to stink a lot for me

Pay no attention to what that rag says about anything. They've been wrong all week and are just looking for reasons to take a swipe at the government. I won't even click that link.

EdgeCase

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yet another misleading and apparently anti-Irish re Brexit headline in the Indo.

I wonder what the thinking behind this agenda is? He wasn't undercut, Poland have a particular view and Ireland have another. It is very like an Express headline (Farage demolishes Remainers, TM teaches Corbyn a lesson, JRM makes a devastating point to prove remainers wrong) in its wording.

Clearly Ireland is under, and will continue to face increasing pressure, over our tax rates

Interestingly it also parallels a narrative that the Daily Express was leading with earlier today, which interpreted it exactly the same way:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1076974/brexit-news-latest-deal-vote-theresa-may-no-deal-EU-UK

aindriu80

I guess your right EdgeCase. I think the brits are really egging them on though!

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

I am finding it difficult to engage with this discussion. It seems people from ‘ireland’ can be as offensive as the wish towards Northern Ireland but dare us from the ‘north’ say a word that may be seen as disengeniois or we are reprimanded.
I know you guys are very frustrated about the direction of things but don’t shoot the messenger.
Tbh I am not rattled with being told to go to hell above or the other endless derogatory stuff about the north, our elected reps, our government, etc. But I think there needs to be a wee bit of openness to take it if you give it.
Guess that might be me in trouble again but when we are all gone you will be able to have nice discussions about how awful the brits are without anyone challenging the attitudes

Still waiting for the reasons you believe Brexit will be good for Northern Ireland and its people.

fly_agaric

Leo Varadkar wrote:

we are "forever closing tax loopholes"

well after the horse has bolted (when they get too egregious and we start to cop some heat for it.:pac:)!
You can always rustle up new ones easily with a pen stroke anyway.

prawnsambo

Folkstonian wrote: »

Not sure where I said I thought that it would be expedient or advantageous to declare nuclear war on our closest continental ‘neighbour’.

I simply corrected what read as a deliberate attempt to distort the truth and not a ‘tongue in cheek riposte’.

But anyway I’m getting quite fed up with the whole endeavour now. I’ve swung from being a remainer, to a Brexit supporter, back to a remainer, and back yet again to a Brexit supporter. I just want it to be over now and hope we salvage some kind of deal. It’s going to mean a few years of turbulence but that will just have to be negotiated.

I’m finding it ever harder to find the political dynamic of the European Union as agreeable prospect going forward. Geemany and France have ignited the afterburners on economic and military integration. Things that were written off as unhelpful and impossible scare stories just a few years ago are now being talked about by heads of state and willed on by influential MEPs.

I think we’ve got to a stage where there’s no going back, for anybody, and an extension of article 50 will be dreaded by all sides.

If you want it to be over, then the only option is to call the whole thing off. Because it will be a headline item for years to come regardless of whether it's a deal or no deal. There'll be trade deals or no trade deals, talks stalling or coming close to fruition only to stall again. And then every time something happens that can be pointed to as brexit related, that will be headline news too. Rinse and repeat.

Beechwoodspark

aindriu80 wrote: »

I guess your right EdgeCase. I think the brits are really egging them on though!

I’m sure the British are trying their damndest to sow a bit of discord. What’s it called again...oh yeah...divide and rule

downcow

Hurrache wrote: »

Still waiting for the reasons you believe Brexit will be good for Northern Ireland and its people.

I think the mod told you that question was answered. I’ll answer again if you wish

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

I think the mod told you that question was answered. I’ll answer again if you wish

Not that question I believe. Thanks for answering it again in case I previously missed it in the chaos.

Irishmale0399

The longer this all goes on the more I think the EU should give Donald a ring. Let him practice his wall building from Omeath to Donegal.......let the people of N.Ireland run an indepentant state for 5-10 years and then we can all sit down again. Ask them then if they want to be in the EU, independant or reunite with Ireland or rejoin the UK. Might be the making of the country when they have no fallback in London and know that they have to do things right without the usual sh1te. Also solves the UK/EU problem and we can all get on with our lives......

Leroy42

Folkstonian states what it appears many in the UK seem to think. "Just get BRexit done with and move on".

As pointed out, this really is only the start of it. Either go with TM deal and have 3 more years of constant talk about the impending backstop coupled with continuing arguments about the trade deal. Ir crash out and have the next few years trying to piece together some sort of trade policy and probably spend years in court dealing with claims and WTO cases.

The only way this ends anytime soon is to cancel Brexit.

FrancieBrady

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

The longer this all goes on the more I think the EU should give Donald a ring. Let him practice his wall building from Omeath to Donegal.......let the people of N.Ireland run an indepentant state for 5-10 years and then we can all sit down again. Ask them then if they want to be in the EU, independant or reunite with Ireland or rejoin the UK. Might be the making of the country when they have no fallback in London and know that they have to do things right without the usual sh1te. Also solves the UK/EU problem and we can all get on with our lives......

We already know the majority in northern Ireland want to stay in the EU.

prawnsambo

downcow wrote: »

I am finding it difficult to engage with this discussion. It seems people from ‘ireland’ can be as offensive as the wish towards Northern Ireland but dare us from the ‘north’ say a word that may be seen as disengeniois or we are reprimanded.
I know you guys are very frustrated about the direction of things but don’t shoot the messenger.
Tbh I am not rattled with being told to go to hell above or the other endless derogatory stuff about the north, our elected reps, our government, etc. But I think there needs to be a wee bit of openness to take it if you give it.
Guess that might be me in trouble again but when we are all gone you will be able to have nice discussions about how awful the brits are without anyone challenging the attitudes

Instead of playing the victim card, perhaps you could actually address the issue raised by the poster. Nobody here has told NI what to do. What they have said to you is that NI voted to remain and for a very good reason. Don't come back to me about the UK vote, because this is about this island and how it will deal with the fallout. So stupid and ill-informed comments from DUP MPs about what this country should do, when this country did not precipitate the crisis is quite likely to raise ire.

lawred2

Leroy42 wrote: »

Folkstonian states what it appears many in the UK seem to think. "Just get BRexit done with and move on".

As pointed out, this really is only the start of it. Either go with TM deal and have 3 more years of constant talk about the impending backstop coupled with continuing arguments about the trade deal. Ir crash out and have the next few years trying to piece together some sort of trade policy and probably spend years in court dealing with claims and WTO cases.

The only way this ends anytime soon is to cancel Brexit.

There is always the option of going full rogue state

Folkstonian

prawnsambo wrote: »

If you want it to be over, then the only option is to call the whole thing off. Because it will be a headline item for years to come regardless of whether it's a deal or no deal. There'll be trade deals or no trade deals, talks stalling or coming close to fruition only to stall again. And then every time something happens that can be pointed to as brexit related, that will be headline news too. Rinse and repeat.

I don’t agree because there is no status quo. Rescinding the article 50 notice or having a second referendum doesn’t mean that things go back to how they were.

Europe seemingly wants to increase the pace of integration. Europe now isn’t the same as it was in 2015 and it isn’t going back.

I don’t feel any particular annoyance at that, because it’s not up to Britain or any British person to tell the EU what it should do.

But I feel an ever increasing disconnect and a growing sense of unease at the intended pace and ubiquity of integration. Being honest, I don’t ‘feel’ like a European, I don’t feel like much of Europe would see me as European, but I still would like to maintain good relations and a sense of shared values where it is appropriate etc

I think that, more and more, people are going to need to be fully on board for this social integration aspect to work. I can’t ever see a time in England when thst will be the case.

At least in the EEA we would have a proper safety barrier between Britain and the European Parliament, Macron, Merkel and their plans for Europe etc

I really am starting to think it offers the best of both worlds, for Britain and for Europe!

downcow

Hurrache wrote: »

Not that question I believe. Thanks for answering it again in case I previously missed it in the chaos.

The answer is None
The majority of our nation voted to leave. We are a democracy. Our region has had massive economical support from our nation (UK). We would be absolutely insane to separate and go with a nation (ireland) which even according th sf has showed little or no interest in our wellbeing over last 100 years.
I would rather stay with our nation of 70million people than dive into the unknown with a nation of 5 million and reliant on Eu which is heading into very difficult times
Does that help you?

Irishmale0399

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We already know the majority in northern Ireland want to stay in the EU.

At this stage the majority must also have an Irish passport and the half of that majority dont want to be Irish......

Capt'n Midnight

aindriu80 wrote: »

What do you make of the polish leader Mateusz Morawiecki having a go at Ireland :

https://www.independent.ie/business/gavin-mcloughlin-leo-varadkar-was-brutally-undercut-by-his-polish-counterpart-in-front-of-the-worlds-most-influential-people-37745441.html

That country is starting to stink a lot for me

It's the indo so may not be factually accurate.

Besides that has nothing to do with Brexit. It's like FF complaining about FG on domestic issues but maintaining a united front on Brexit to the UK. Day to day politics in the EU hasn't been put on hold because of Brexit.

In the UK though keeping the lights on has been ignored as most of the nuclear plants and coal plants are due to shutdown and only one of the six new nuclear plants proposed has started construction. But at an extortionate price and funded by the Chinese.
#takebackcontrol



They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
For trying to change the system from within
- Leonard Cohen

On the other Robert F. Kennedy said a Chinese curse says "may you live in interesting times"

Leroy42

downcow wrote: »

The answer is None
The majority of our nation voted to leave. We are a democracy. Our region has had massive economical support from our nation (UK). We would be absolutely insane to separate and go with a nation (ireland) which even according th sf has showed little or no interest in our wellbeing over last 100 years.
I would rather stay with our nation of 70million people than dive into the unknown with a nation of 5 million and reliant on Eu which is heading into very difficult times
Does that help you?

But why so black and white? BRexit was never about UI, and it was never sold as a crash out. The softest of Brexit, Norway for example would not have required any of that. Yet it was ruled out, not by democracy but by a minority government. And the DUP have stood shoulder to shoulder with them despite there constituents (NI as a whole not GE wise) voting to remain (or things to stay the same).

At what point in the ref did Leave or Remain claim it was about a UI?

You have made up a strawman argument to give yourself a reason to rail against

downcow

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

At this stage the majority must also have an Irish passport and the half of that majority dont want to be Irish......

Could you tell me why there is a struggle to accept the UK vote as representative but the NI vote doesn’t give you the same concern.
Remember NI vote was very close and that was with the Ulster unionist party supporting remain. If there were a rerun their supporters would primarily be leave. Don’t assume NI won’t vote leave.

FrancieBrady

Folkstonian wrote: »

I don’t agree because there is no status quo. Rescinding the article 50 notice or having a second referendum doesn’t mean that things go back to how they were.

Europe seemingly wants to increase the pace of integration. Europe now isn’t the same as it was in 2015 and it isn’t going back.

I don’t feel any particular annoyance at that, because it’s not up to Britain or any British person to tell the EU what it should do.

But I feel an ever increasing disconnect and a growing sense of unease at the intended pace and ubiquity of integration. Being honest, I don’t ‘feel’ like a European, I don’t feel like much of Europe would see me as European, but I still would like to maintain good relations and a sense of shared values where it is appropriate etc

I think that, more and more, people are going to need to be fully on board for this social integration aspect to work. I can’t ever see a time in England when thst will be the case.

At least in the EEA we would have a proper safety barrier between Britain and the European Parliament, Macron, Merkel and their plans for Europe etc

I really am starting to think it offers the best of both worlds, for Britain and for Europe!

What does that mean??

Do you think a Greek feels different to a French person? Of course they do. There is no homogeneous type of European, it is just a name for the people who live in Europe.