Brexit Discussion Thread VI

Hurrache

Folkstonian wrote: »

] because it’s not up to Britain or any British person to tell the EU what it should do.

And this is the problem. Britain was the EU, and it was heavily favoured when it came to voting weighting. But yet the myth is still perpetuated that they have no say. Crazy.

downcow

Leroy42 wrote: »

But why so black and white? BRexit was never about UI, and it was never sold as a crash out. The softest of Brexit, Norway for example would not have required any of that. Yet it was ruled out, not by democracy but by a minority government. And the DUP have stood shoulder to shoulder with them despite there constituents (NI as a whole not GE wise) voting to remain (or things to stay the same).

At what point in the ref did Leave or Remain claim it was about a UI?

You have made up a strawman argument to give yourself a reason to rail against

So what do you think unionists in NI should do?

Leroy42

downcow wrote: »

Could you tell me why there is a struggle to accept the UK vote as representative but the NI vote doesn’t give you the same concern.
Remember NI vote was very close and that was with the Ulster unionist party supporting remain. If there were a rerun their supporters would primarily be leave. Don’t assume NI won’t vote leave.

You have evidence of this switch I assume?

What was the result in NI. 56/44 Because if you consider that not being close then the actual 52/48 must be considered even on that basis

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

The answer is None
The majority of our nation voted to leave. We are a democracy. Our region has had massive economical support from our nation (UK). We would be absolutely insane to separate and go with a nation (ireland) which even according th sf has showed little or no interest in our wellbeing over last 100 years.
I would rather stay with our nation of 70million people than dive into the unknown with a nation of 5 million and reliant on Eu which is heading into very difficult times
Does that help you?

But the question was not about a united Ireland, which seems to be what your basing your answer on. Nor is the answer related to staying in the EU?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So what do you think unionists in NI should do?

Protect their interests and not protect abstract notions. Quite simple. A backstop will not make the slightest difference to your position, the lack of one will in time because you crash out if it is not there.
Your living and economic stability is being protected by Dublin and the EU not Westminster.

Leroy42

downcow wrote: »

So what do you think unionists in NI should do?

Ask for what NI voted for, or as close to what they can.

Point out the part of the vote regarding UI? WHy not the Norway option? WHy does it have to be this full hard BRexit which places such a strain on the GFA, ROI.UK relations and even places the very future of NI economy at such risk.

Why has NI simply accepted the red lines of the Tory party, aligned itself to the ERG?

Folkstonian

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What does that mean??

Do you think a Greek feels different to a French person? Of course they do. There is no homogeneous type of European, it is just a name for the people who live in Europe.

Well that is kind of why I put it in quotation marks. I honestly don’t know what it isn’t meant to mean, or meant to feel like. All I know is I don’t have any feeling at all on that front.

And I think that’s one of the problems, maybe. It’s not out of malice or ill will. There’s nowhere more interesting on the planet for me than the continent of Europe. But it doesn’t feel like anything other than a foreign place.

And I think having an emotional connection to the idea, or the concept of a European ‘home’ is going to be so important for everyone who is going to be able to accept all of the integration drives. I don’t want England to be trying to pulling up the handbrake whilst everyone else puts their foot on the accelerator. It’s going to cause long term acrimonious feelings if anything, which I think in a world that’s really ticking right now.. we could all do without

blanch152

downcow wrote: »

So what do you think unionists in NI should do?

If unionists were smarter, they would vote to stay in the EU or push for a soft Brexit in the EEA.

Brexit results from a misguided nationalism, not the first time on these islands that some people get overexercised by a nationalist question.

FrancieBrady

Folkstonian wrote: »

Well that is kind of why I put it in quotation marks. I honestly don’t know what it isn’t meant to mean, or meant to feel like. All I know is I don’t have any feeling at all on that front.

And I think that’s one of the problems, maybe. It’s not out of malice or ill will. There’s nowhere more interesting on the planet for me than the continent of Europe. But it doesn’t feel like anything other than a foreign place.

And I think having an emotional connection to the idea, or the concept of a European ‘home’ is going to be so important for everyone who is going to be able to accept all of the integration drives. I don’t want England to be trying to pulling up the handbrake whilst everyone else puts their foot on the accelerator. It’s going to cause long term acrimonious feelings if anything, which I think in a world that’s really ticking right now.. we could all do without

You are as European as I am or the aforementioned Greek or french person.

You will still be after Brexit if it happens.

Akrasia

downcow wrote: »

I am finding it difficult to engage with this discussion. It seems people from ‘ireland’ can be as offensive as the wish towards Northern Ireland but dare us from the ‘north’ say a word that may be seen as disengeniois or we are reprimanded.
I know you guys are very frustrated about the direction of things but don’t shoot the messenger.
Tbh I am not rattled with being told to go to hell above or the other endless derogatory stuff about the north, our elected reps, our government, etc. But I think there needs to be a wee bit of openness to take it if you give it.
Guess that might be me in trouble again but when we are all gone you will be able to have nice discussions about how awful the brits are without anyone challenging the attitudes

Ah the old 'I'm offended' strategy. The last refuge of someone peddling ideas that cannot be supported by reason or evidence.

blanch152

Folkstonian wrote: »

Well that is kind of why I put it in quotation marks. I honestly don’t know what it isn’t meant to mean, or meant to feel like. All I know is I don’t have any feeling at all on that front.

And I think that’s one of the problems, maybe. It’s not out of malice or ill will. There’s nowhere more interesting on the planet for me than the continent of Europe. But it doesn’t feel like anything other than a foreign place.

And I think having an emotional connection to the idea, or the concept of a European ‘home’ is going to be so important for everyone who is going to be able to accept all of the integration drives. I don’t want England to be trying to pulling up the handbrake whilst everyone else puts their foot on the accelerator. It’s going to cause long term acrimonious feelings if anything, which I think in a world that’s really ticking right now.. we could all do without

None of that means that Brexit is the right idea, certainly not a hard Brexit.

Staying in the EU to delay the project or opting for an EEA relationship which has many of the features of the original common markey are better for the UK than a no-deal Brexit.

First Up

Folkstonian wrote:

And I think that’s one of the problems, maybe. It’s not out of malice or ill will. There’s nowhere more interesting on the planet for me than the continent of Europe. But it doesn’t feel like anything other than a foreign place.

It isn't supposed to feel anything other than foreign. I would hate it if I wasn't thrilled at being somewhere new and different. That has nothing to do with it.

The beauty (magic even) of the EU is that 27 countries of widely varied culture, history, temprament and economic profile have found a way of sharing and cooperating that has taken them from centuries of warfare to peace, prosperity and global economic power.

But you either get that or you don't; maybe that's the real difference between "feeling European" or not.

EdgeCase

From my point of view, I just feel like I'm waiting for some kind of big economic bump in the road on 29 March.
It's a ridiculous situation to have voluntarily put themselves and their trade partners in. I mean, we're only over the 2008 recession (in the UK too) and straight into this absolute bloody mess.

It's all very well having people going around being offended and upset because people won't give them respect for deciding to set the self destruct sequence and throw away the escape pods. The rest of us fully realise that we are going to be dealing with potentially very harsh economic realities in a few months time and are rightly rather annoyed about being put in this position.

I'd 100% agree with the Airbus CEO. It is an absolute disgrace. The quality of leadership in the UK at present is abysmal and I think we will be looking back at this later in 2019 with various people being utterly unable to justify why they destroyed their own prosperity.

Also from an Irish perspective, we've seen this kind of selective blindness before. Before the 2008 recession when everything was going to be 'grand' and it was going to be a 'soft landing' and anyone saying otherwise was just a big party pooper.

Been there before. Have the t-shirt and the experience of having an economy crash down around my ears.

It's beyond infuriating to see it happen all over again.

Irishmale0399

downcow wrote: »

Could you tell me why there is a struggle to accept the UK vote as representative but the NI vote doesn’t give you the same concern.
Remember NI vote was very close and that was with the Ulster unionist party supporting remain. If there were a rerun their supporters would primarily be leave. Don’t assume NI won’t vote leave.

The people of Northern Ireland are part of the UK....the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU regardless of by how much or little.



Should the people of Northern Ireland want to stay in the EU why are they not on the streets in a peaceful manner protesting and forcing the DUP and TMs hand??? If they want to leave they could all surrender their Irish passports and stay loyal to what they really want and believe in.



Today I had a young man from Banbridge stand in my office (in Germany) asking for a pay rise and a company car. I asked what his status would be after the last day of March (company policy as advised by the company legal department) should a hard Brexit occur. His answer was "The GF agreement means I could apply for an Irish passport. Makes my life easier and means I can get around everything....even when I feel British. You Irish are really making it easy for us lads....just not sure what my mates will think of it all. I am certainly only a plastic Paddy because I couldnt be bothered with the hassle"


In my world after 20 years living away....you are Irish or you are not. I could have German citizenship tomorrow....but I am Irish. I could have both passports.....why??? I am Irish, I am married to a German, my kids have both passports but will decide what they want to be when the time is right....I was born in Ireland, grew up there and regard myself as being Irish. I am proud of my culture, the people and the history of my country.

road_high

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yet another misleading and apparently anti-Irish re Brexit headline in the Indo.

I wonder what the thinking behind this agenda is? He wasn't undercut, Poland have a particular view and Ireland have another. It is very like an Express headline (Farage demolishes Remainers, TM teaches Corbyn a lesson, JRM makes a devastating point to prove remainers wrong) in its wording.

Clearly Ireland is under, and will continue to face increasing pressure, over our tax rates

Their headlines have been shocking re Brexit of late- very anti government and undermining of the (very logical, fair and pragmatic) position of our govt. Do they want to sabotage things for some petty political motives- certainly not in the national best interest at this critical juncture? This is all way above political squabling.
Think it was a few days and it was something like “EU ready to sacrifice ireland for Deal..” but when you read the article there was zero evidence of that.
I know the Indo is now akin to gutter journalism in all respects but deliberately sabotaging the national interest is a new low, even for them

EdgeCase

road_high wrote: »

Their headlines have been shocking re Brexit of late- very anti government and undermining of the (very logical, fair and pragmatic) position of our govt. Do they want to sabotage things for some petty political motives- certainly not in the national best interest at this critical juncture? This is all way above political squabling

I'd suspect they're spotting a market to go more aggressively tabloid and differentiate themselves from the Irish Times and Examiner.

CelticRambler

You ask:

downcow wrote: »

So what do you think unionists in NI should do?

and give as your own answer:

downcow wrote: »

I would rather stay with our nation of 70million people than dive into the unknown with a nation of 5 million and reliant on Eu which is heading into very difficult times

Yet again, this answer makes no sense at all. If it's a good thing to stay in a union with three other countries (only one of which could be said to really share any kind of socio-politico-economic common ground with NI) then why is it not a good thing to remain in a union with 27 other countries. If having 70 million "fellow citizens" is better than having 5, why is 70 million also better than 500 million?

And if you think that staying with your current arrangement of 5 million immediate EU neighbours is "the unknown" (PS: they're net contributors to the EU, so hardly "reliant" in a financial sense, at least), how can you possibly justify supporting Brexit - which is by definition and by recent experience - a leap into a very uncertain unknown, and universally acknowledged "difficult times"?

Those two points alone should be good reasons for unionist politicians to do what they were elected to do: represent the wishes of their country, the majority of which voted to remain in the EU; and if that's not possible, then form an alliance with their Celtic cousins in Scotland to ensure that at least those two countries can be protected from the irrational English self-harm that is a chaotic Brexit.

downcow

prawnsambo wrote: »

Instead of playing the victim card, perhaps you could actually address the issue raised by the poster. Nobody here has told NI what to do. What they have said to you is that NI voted to remain and for a very good reason. Don't come back to me about the UK vote, because this is about this island and how it will deal with the fallout. So stupid and ill-informed comments from DUP MPs about what this country should do, when this country did not precipitate the crisis is quite likely to raise ire.

I can completely accept that this is about this island for you but for me it is about NI Ireland means the same to me as Spain only it’s a bit closer and a bit colder.
Many posters on here are saying the majority in NI want to stay in Eu. There is no evidence for that. Yes a very small majority voted that way in the referendum but it would only require a very small number of the remain voters to believe in the union and be democrats to now be in a position of wanting to accept the UK vote and leave. So you have no basis for suggesting the majority in NI currently want to go against the referendum result

lawred2

Folkstonian wrote: »

I don’t agree because there is no status quo. Rescinding the article 50 notice or having a second referendum doesn’t mean that things go back to how they were.

Europe seemingly wants to increase the pace of integration. Europe now isn’t the same as it was in 2015 and it isn’t going back.

I don’t feel any particular annoyance at that, because it’s not up to Britain or any British person to tell the EU what it should do.

But I feel an ever increasing disconnect and a growing sense of unease at the intended pace and ubiquity of integration. Being honest, I don’t ‘feel’ like a European, I don’t feel like much of Europe would see me as European, but I still would like to maintain good relations and a sense of shared values where it is appropriate etc

I think that, more and more, people are going to need to be fully on board for this social integration aspect to work. I can’t ever see a time in England when thst will be the case.

At least in the EEA we would have a proper safety barrier between Britain and the European Parliament, Macron, Merkel and their plans for Europe etc

I really am starting to think it offers the best of both worlds, for Britain and for Europe!

Do you live in a European country?

Then you're a European

/end

Borderhopper

downcow wrote: »

So what do you think unionists in NI should do?

I'll turn that question around. What do you think nationalists should do? Because at the minute there is an awful lot of anger and fear that we'll be cut off. I'm old enough to remember the troubles, to be searched at gun point on the way to school, to have 2 friends find a murdered informer on the way to school, continue on and tell the teacher, then sit down like this was normal.

Do we really want to risk going back to that? The GFA was an agreement within Northern Ireland and involving 2 jurisdictions. But it also acknowledged that here was not as British as Finchley, but was different from the rest of the U.K.

These are dangerous times. I posted before about how the troubles may have "started" in 1968/69, but the tension was building before. It's happening again. Republicans, who have supported the peace process, are questioning what it was for when rights won are so easily taken away. I have no faith that the British government, of whatever hue, will protect the GFA. I also have no faith that there will ever be a border poll-no state gives up territory willingly, and one that is prepared to wreck its own economy for a half conceived notion of taking back control is unlikely to care what people think.

A close friend, whose father was murdered by the IRA, was horrified at the outcome of Brexit, and wondered why did "they" have to change everything. I think it's useful to remember in the discussion about GDP, companies relocating and assorted silliness that this is potentially life or death for people in the north, Northern Ireland, whatever. The GFA contained things that not everyone really found palatable, but it's the best we've got.

Do we really want to throw it away because England told us to?

Captain Obvious

downcow wrote: »

I can completely accept that this is about this island for you but for me it is about NI Ireland means the same to me as Spain only it’s a bit closer and a bit colder.
Many posters on here are saying the majority in NI want to stay in Eu. There is no evidence for that. Yes a very small majority voted that way in the referendum but it would only require a very small number of the remain voters to believe in the union and be democrats to now be in a position of wanting to accept the UK vote and leave. So you have no basis for suggesting the majority in NI currently want to go against the referendum result

Then you also have no basis for insisting a majority of the UK want to leave.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I can completely accept that this is about this island for you but for me it is about NI Ireland means the same to me as Spain only it’s a bit closer and a bit colder.
Many posters on here are saying the majority in NI want to stay in Eu. There is no evidence for that. Yes a very small majority voted that way in the referendum but it would only require a very small number of the remain voters to believe in the union and be democrats to now be in a position of wanting to accept the UK vote and leave. So you have no basis for suggesting the majority in NI currently want to go against the referendum result

You are economically linked and culturally linked to Ireland whether you ignore that fact or not and if you crash out (even go out with a deal) you are going to find that out.

Frankly never heard such head in the sand bigoted nonsense in my life. It is time for unionism to grow up a bit.

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

The answer is None
The majority of our nation voted to leave. We are a democracy. Our region has had massive economical support from our nation (UK). We would be absolutely insane to separate and go with a nation (ireland) which even according th sf has showed little or no interest in our wellbeing over last 100 years.
I would rather stay with our nation of 70million people than dive into the unknown with a nation of 5 million and reliant on Eu which is heading into very difficult times
Does that help you?

Nobody is struggling with the fact that NI and Scotland chose to remain and England and Wales chose to leave. The difficulty AFAIK arises from trying to comprehend the idiocy of the leave arguments which never stack up. In absolutely no way will any part if the UK be better off under any kind of Brexit.
Yet if Boris the liar or anyone else says it will be better then thousands of people believe him.

As for your choosing leave because the UK is a democracy, what do you think about NI not having the same laws in terms of gay marriage or abortion?

Lastly, your point about going it alone with a nation of 5 million. That is not on the table. It's just in your head. Yes a hard Brexit will make a border poll more likely but that is not the doing of the RoI. Nobody is forcing you to join the Republic. In fact the WA would enforce the special status of NI as part of the UK only with better trading options. Anything else is just paranoia!

downcow

Akrasia wrote: »

Ah the old 'I'm offended' strategy. The last refuge of someone peddling ideas that cannot be supported by reason or evidence.

I am not offended in the slightest. I am confused - just look back and consider that I have been warned and also checked a few times and tell me have I not been a less offensive than those haveing a go at my community
That’s all
Absolutely no offence taken just having to be very careful what I say.

prawnsambo

downcow wrote: »

I can completely accept that this is about this island for you but for me it is about NI Ireland means the same to me as Spain only it’s a bit closer and a bit colder.
Many posters on here are saying the majority in NI want to stay in Eu. There is no evidence for that. Yes a very small majority voted that way in the referendum but it would only require a very small number of the remain voters to believe in the union and be democrats to now be in a position of wanting to accept the UK vote and leave. So you have no basis for suggesting the majority in NI currently want to go against the referendum result

Well on that basis the even smaller majority in the UK-wide referendum should definitely be overturned. It would only take a relatively small number of leave voters to change their minds.

Capt'n Midnight

Folkstonian wrote: »

At least in the EEA we would have a proper safety barrier between Britain and the European Parliament, Macron, Merkel and their plans for Europe etc

Cherry picking.

Wake up and smell the coffee.
http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreement

The EEA Agreement guarantees equal rights and obligations within the Internal Market for individuals and economic operators in the EEA. It provides for the inclusion of EU legislation covering the four freedoms — the free movement of goods, services, persons and capital

How do you get into the EEA ? as all EFTA countries are in Schengen and take decisions by consensus which seems anathema in the UK

Also http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-institutions

the EEA Agreement established EEA EFTA bodies to match those on the EU side. The EEA EFTA States take all decisions by concensus as opposed to the EU side where decisions related to EEA legislation are normally taken by majority vote.

Irishmale0399

downcow wrote: »

I can completely accept that this is about this island for you but for me it is about NI Ireland means the same to me as Spain only it’s a bit closer and a bit colder.
Many posters on here are saying the majority in NI want to stay in Eu. There is no evidence for that. Yes a very small majority voted that way in the referendum but it would only require a very small number of the remain voters to believe in the union and be democrats to now be in a position of wanting to accept the UK vote and leave. So you have no basis for suggesting the majority in NI currently want to go against the referendum result

So if you feel the people of NI want to leave.....NI and its people have 2 options:


1. Go with TM and the UK....currently meaning Northern Ireland is a UK - EU border. Has to be closed and monitored by customs etc.


2. You leave and remain in the customs union...meaning no border...but a lot of upset people in London.


Once you leave the EU you have no rights until an agreement is reached to travel, do business, drive etc. within the EU. That contract is on the table and your government refused to accept it. The EU are under no obligation to sit down with the UK again.


Its time for the people of the UK and NI to decide what they really want and to accept the EU is in the driving seat. The UK and NI have nothing that the EU needs or cannot survive without........can the same be said about the UK and NI??? You cant have the cream and the cherries....

downcow

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

The people of Northern Ireland are part of the UK....the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU regardless of by how much or little.



Should the people of Northern Ireland want to stay in the EU why are they not on the streets in a peaceful manner protesting and forcing the DUP and TMs hand??? If they want to leave they could all surrender their Irish passports and stay loyal to what they really want and believe in.



Today I had a young man from Banbridge stand in my office (in Germany) asking for a pay rise and a company car. I asked what his status would be after the last day of March (company policy as advised by the company legal department) should a hard Brexit occur. His answer was "The GF agreement means I could apply for an Irish passport. Makes my life easier and means I can get around everything....even when I feel British. You Irish are really making it easy for us lads....just not sure what my mates will think of it all. I am certainly only a plastic Paddy because I couldnt be bothered with the hassle"


In my world after 20 years living away....you are Irish or you are not. I could have German citizenship tomorrow....but I am Irish. I could have both passports.....why??? I am Irish, I am married to a German, my kids have both passports but will decide what they want to be when the time is right....I was born in Ireland, grew up there and regard myself as being Irish. I am proud of my culture, the people and the history of my country.

Ditto. Agree 100%.
That’s one issue you can’t blame the unionists on.

RobMc59

CelticRambler wrote: »

You ask:
and give as your own answer:

Yet again, this answer makes no sense at all. If it's a good thing to stay in a union with three other countries (only one of which could be said to really share any kind of socio-politico-economic common ground with NI) then why is it not a good thing to remain in a union with 27 other countries. If having 70 million "fellow citizens" is better than having 5, why is 70 million also better than 500 million?

And if you think that staying with your current arrangement of 5 million immediate EU neighbours is "the unknown" (PS: they're net contributors to the EU, so hardly "reliant" in a financial sense, at least), how can you possibly justify supporting Brexit - which is by definition and by recent experience - a leap into a very uncertain unknown, and universally acknowledged "difficult times"?

Those two points alone should be good reasons for unionist politicians to do what they were elected to do: represent the wishes of their country, the majority of which voted to remain in the EU; and if that's not possible, then form an alliance with their Celtic cousins in Scotland to ensure that at least those two countries can be protected from the irrational English self-harm that is a chaotic Brexit.

I believe he has made it quite clear he views himself as a British citizen within the UK and that should be that.It can as he says be difficult for British posters as their opinions can be taken as attempts to wind Irish posters up which is`nt always the case.

Capt'n Midnight

downcow wrote: »

So what do you think unionists in NI should do?

Ask their MPs to respect their wishes, the wishes of the businesses in NI, the wishes of DUP councillors, the wishes of Arlene.

The only place where there is a majority of Hard Brexiteers in NI is in Westminster.