Brexit Discussion Thread VI

downcow

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

So if you feel the people of NI want to leave.....NI and its people have 2 options:


1. Go with TM and the UK....currently meaning Northern Ireland is a UK - EU border. Has to be closed and monitored by customs etc.


2. You leave and remain in the customs union...meaning no border...but a lot of upset people in London.


Once you leave the EU you have no rights until an agreement is reached to travel, do business, drive etc. within the EU. That contract is on the table and your government refused to accept it. The EU are under no obligation to sit down with the UK again.


Its time for the people of the UK and NI to decide what they really want and to accept the EU is in the driving seat. The UK and NI have nothing that the EU needs or cannot survive without........can the same be said about the UK and NI??? You cant have the cream and the cherries....

I think anyone in NI who chooses to invest in an Irish passport can have all the stuff you mention. Although I honestly believe when the dust settles UK nationals will have it all available to

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

Many posters on here are saying the majority in NI want to stay in Eu. There is no evidence for that. Yes a very small majority voted that way in the referendum but it would only require a very small number of the remain voters to believe in the union and be democrats to now be in a position of wanting to accept the UK vote and leave. So you have no basis for suggesting the majority in NI currently want to go against the referendum result

:eek:

WTF???



1st sentence: Many posters on here are saying the majority in NI want to stay in Eu
Note: indeed, many are saying that
2nd sentence: There is no evidence for that.
Note: see 3rd sentence.
3rd sentence: a very small majority voted that way in the referendum
Note: which makes you one of the "many posters". Also the "very small" majority in favour of Remain was greater than the overall UK majority in favour of Leave
3rd sentence, second phrase: it would only require a very small number of the remain voters to believe in the union and be democrats to now be in a position of wanting to accept the UK vote and leave.
Note: True Leaver-Believers argue that the 2016 result is CAST IN STONE and MAY NEVER BE QUESTIONED; to do so would be anti-democratic. Now see 3rd sentence.
4th sentence: So you have no basis for suggesting the majority in NI currently want to go against the referendum result
Note: see 3rd sentence, and every opinion poll since ... :rolleyes:

Irishmale0399

downcow wrote: »

I think anyone in NI who chooses to invest in an Irish passport can have all the stuff you mention. Although I honestly believe when the dust settles UK nationals will have it all available to

If its a hard Brexit (which I think it wont be) I wouldnt be so sure that the EU will sit down straight away and trash things out for the good of the UK. Why should they??? At this moment in time all TM and her friends in London are doing is sticking 2 fingers up at the rest of Europe.



Europe must stick together and show its members that leaving isnt an option.

Capt'n Midnight

Just in case there is any confusion about how well the DUP are looking after NI there's five times as many border crossings as truck permits to use them.

NI has 13,000 truck movements a day across the border. If there is a Hard Brexit, Northern Ireland truckers only have permits for 60 trucks into the EU.

Ireland is in the EU.

First Up

Irishmale0399 wrote:

Europe must stick together and show its members that leaving isnt an option.

Of course its an option but it isn't cost free.

ThePanjandrum

Hurrache wrote: »

And this is the problem. Britain was the EU, and it was heavily favoured when it came to voting weighting.

In what way? The last time I looked Britain had fewer MEPs per head of population of any EU country.

FrancieBrady

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

If its a hard Brexit (which I think it wont be) I wouldnt be so sure that the EU will sit down straight away and trash things out for the good of the UK. Why should they??? At this moment in time all TM and her friends in London are doing is sticking 2 fingers up at the rest of Europe.



Europe must stick together and show its members that leaving isnt an option.

We are about to see the extra dividend of investment, trade and support the EU gives made manifest in the chaos that will ensue if there is a crash out. That will mitigate against anyone else wanting to leave for decades imo.

igCorcaigh

First Up wrote: »

Of course its an option but it isn't cost free.

Yes, exactly.

But the lesson has been learned (by some!).
And so it seems that the EU is a trap. Once in, you cannot easily leave, and the ultimate destination may not be to your liking.

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Nobody is struggling with the fact that NI and Scotland chose to remain and England and Wales chose to leave. The difficulty AFAIK arises from trying to comprehend the idiocy of the leave arguments which never stack up. In absolutely no way will any part if the UK be better off under any kind of Brexit.
Yet if Boris the liar or anyone else says it will be better then thousands of people believe him.

As for your choosing leave because the UK is a democracy, what do you think about NI not having the same laws in terms of gay marriage or abortion?

Lastly, your point about going it alone with a nation of 5 million. That is not on the table. It's just in your head. Yes a hard Brexit will make a border poll more likely but that is not the doing of the RoI. Nobody is forcing you to join the Republic. In fact the WA would enforce the special status of NI as part of the UK only with better trading options. Anything else is just paranoia!

Ill not call any of you politicians liars as we all know what would happen
I would like to see gay marriage introduced in NI but it is a devolved matter and the crazy structures that the gfa set up means it can’t happen at this time. Abortion is much more complicated for me but I have a slight leaning to pro choice. But not sure why any of this is relevant. We have this situation because of the gfa which now everyone in Eu except those living in NI think is the greatest thing since sliced bread

ThePanjandrum

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Europe must stick together and show its members that leaving isnt an option.

Why should it not be an option? I've never been in an organisation that you aren't allowed to leave. I'd have thought it's only criminal gangs and such like that have these rules.

First Up

igCorcaigh wrote:

But the lesson has been learned (by some!). And so it seems that the EU is a trap. Once in, you cannot easily leave, and the ultimate destination may not be to your liking.

They can easily leave but the EU is not responsible for the final destination.

Borderhopper

downcow wrote: »

Ill not call any of you politicians liars as we all know what would happen
I would like to see gay marriage introduced in NI but it is a devolved matter and the crazy structures that the gfa set up means it can’t happen at this time. Abortion is much more complicated for me but I have a slight leaning to pro choice. But not sure why any of this is relevant. We have this situation because of the gfa which now everyone in Eu except those living in NI think is the greatest thing since sliced bread

Please don't peddle the notion that the GFA is reviled in Northern Ireland. I'll ask again, what are nationalists supposed to do? Where is our place? Because we don't feel like we have a place anymore.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

I believe he has made it quite clear he views himself as a British citizen within the UK and that should be that.It can as he says be difficult for British posters as their opinions can be taken as attempts to wind Irish posters up which is`nt always the case.

Does that excuse totally illogical behaviour and irrational arguments?

Well, I suppose if we listen to the likes of Boris, Nigel & Jacob (and star-of-the-day, Michael Howe) then yes it does! :pac:

mickoneill31

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

In what way? The last time I looked Britain had fewer MEPs per head of population of any EU country.

Probably need to look again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_in_the_European_Parliament

It also helped that Ireland and other countries usually voted along with the UK as we had similar interests which gave the UK an advantage when voting.

Admittedly the UKIP MEPs were pretty much useless but that was Britain's choice and not the fault of the EU.

Borderhopper

downcow wrote: »

Ill not call any of you politicians liars as we all know what would happen
I would like to see gay marriage introduced in NI but it is a devolved matter and the crazy structures that the gfa set up means it can’t happen at this time. Abortion is much more complicated for me but I have a slight leaning to pro choice. But not sure why any of this is relevant. We have this situation because of the gfa which now everyone in Eu except those living in NI think is the greatest thing since sliced bread

Please don't peddle the notion that the GFA is reviled in Northern Ireland. I'll ask again, what are nationalists supposed to do? Where is our place? Because we don't feel like we have a place anymore.

J Mysterio

downcow wrote: »

The answer is None
The majority of our nation voted to leave. We are a democracy. Our region has had massive economical support from our nation (UK). We would be absolutely insane to separate and go with a nation (ireland) which even according th sf has showed little or no interest in our wellbeing over last 100 years.
I would rather stay with our nation of 70million people than dive into the unknown with a nation of 5 million and reliant on Eu which is heading into very difficult times
Does that help you?

Thing is, were the backstop to come into effect, NI would still be part of the UK, but like a special economic zone. You will still trade with the UK, and you get full access to the EU market and EU rights in addition to those you enjoy as a UK citizen. Put simply, the backstop maintains the status quo and would likely provide a boost for Northern Ireland too..

No Backstop No Deal Brexit with Hard Border is the absolute worst outcome for everybody, especially Northern Ireland and for a multitiude of reasons. Chief among these would be the impact on society and the strong likelihood of violence, but the economy will be smashed too.

Cross border manufacturing/ processing/ production destroyed, cross border trade ruined, huge impact on agriculture and on bloated public service, the latter of which will be hammered through loss of EU/ UK funding.

Ultimately though, a bad Brexit is a huge fracture in all our relationships and is a very negative thing, not to be able to find a deal and to find agreement. No one wants to see border posts on this island, to see patrols and guards and soldiers. To breath life into sectarian nonsense.

Either revoking A50 or having Brexit and taking the May Deal would avoid all these unwelcome repercussions. It would make a United Ireland less likely and 'strengthen the union' while safeguarding the economy and peoples futures. You are taking a giant leap into the dark here and that is hugely dangerous and irresponsible, cos we are tied to you.

prawnsambo

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

In what way? The last time I looked Britain had fewer MEPs per head of population of any EU country.

Well you mustn't have been wearing your spectacles or you didn't look very hard. Nor at the responses the last time you posted this misinformation. So I suggest you look again. And then come back and edit your post to reflect the correct information.

Infini

downcow wrote: »

The answer is None
The majority of our nation voted to leave. We are a democracy. Our region has had massive economical support from our nation (UK). We would be absolutely insane to separate and go with a nation (ireland) which even according th sf has showed little or no interest in our wellbeing over last 100 years.
I would rather stay with our nation of 70million people than dive into the unknown with a nation of 5 million and reliant on Eu which is heading into very difficult times
Does that help you?

Lets be clear here the vote was barely 52 to 48 to leave but no details were provided on HOW to leave. The same vote has multiple investigations into the leave campaign based on evidence of campaign finance breaches AND meddling by Russia (Brexit was a trial run for the US elections the same year). In any other country this would have lead to either a rerun or annulment since the campaign was skewed to one side by breaching the rules but not only has it continued but now risks serious damage because those in Wesminster cannot cop on and be realistic.

Your region currently has support not just from the rest of the UK but the EU as well, what do you think will happen when that EU funding is cut off? That the UK can just magically replace all of it? The same party thats been in power several years and presided over continuous austerity? What of the value of those funds in the event of a Hard Brexit? Your looking at up to another 25% loss of Sterlings value in a crashout scenario on top of the 33% its dropped since before the referendum. Your currency would have less value than the Euro that will hammer you on anything that has to be imported or whos components have to be imported for example. Then consider you would see local trade essentially collapse overnight because trade becomes severely restricted over the border?

You also say the EU is heading into very difficult times based on what exactly? If anything the UK is basically on course to crash out and utterly wreck itself socially, politically and economically. You say youd rather stay with your nation BUT what about the rest of the population in NI. You really think THEY'LL want to stay if offered the choice between stability and economic prosperity and being tied to an utterly dysfunctional country with paralysed politics and complete lack of interest in regions like NI?

If you want my opinion you basically need to clear your beliefs about the EU and focus solely on facts and hard information and utterly ignore the baseless opinions and baseless statements of the likes of Boris, Moggs and even Sammy Shytestirrer. They're liars and chancers and all they're doing is misleading you into a trap. Your union is built on the support of its people, Brexit is literally throwing acid on that support and a hard brexit is the most corrosive of all because once people find themselves poorer and struggling and buisnesses closing and people losing their jobs they'll start asking real questions about what that union is still worth expecially when they start asking if a UI is of more value to THEM and facts are presented that benefit them in that scenario. If the WA isnt acceptable then Brexit simply cannot happen because if it does you will have to face the possibility of a UI being a reality and it will be because of it and the DUPs utter stupidity.

J Mysterio

Folkstonian wrote: »

Well that is kind of why I put it in quotation marks. I honestly don’t know what it isn’t meant to mean, or meant to feel like. All I know is I don’t have any feeling at all on that front.

And I think that’s one of the problems, maybe. It’s not out of malice or ill will. There’s nowhere more interesting on the planet for me than the continent of Europe. But it doesn’t feel like anything other than a foreign place.

And I think having an emotional connection to the idea, or the concept of a European ‘home’ is going to be so important for everyone who is going to be able to accept all of the integration drives. I don’t want England to be trying to pulling up the handbrake whilst everyone else puts their foot on the accelerator. It’s going to cause long term acrimonious feelings if anything, which I think in a world that’s really ticking right now.. we could all do without

With all due respect, that is absolute bollocks. You are talking about your 'feelings' and your 'feelings about Europe' and if you 'feel European'. Well, thats all lovely but the cold, hard reality is in 2019 our economies and societies are hugely intertwined and to pull us apart due to some arbitrary 'feelings' will hugely damage us all.

It makes no sense at all, it's like the hormones of a teenager.

There was any amount of things the UK could have done to sort out UK society and and UK politics. Look at the emigratiom you could limit from outside EU which has continued apace, look at the inequality in your society which has left half the country to die while London was the richest city in Europe. Look at the lack of integration and support for immigrant communities instead of blaming them for all societies ills. Look at zero hour contracts and lack of unvestment. Look at the broken political system and the fraud and the liars and charlatans. Stop blaming Europe for everything and grow up!

European countries who do share values, enlightenment values, do have common goals and are better and safer and stronger together. Especially in a cruel modern world. Brexit is a regression, a step backwards. It is insular and self serving. It is arrogant and belicose.

FreudianSlippers

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It was always IAE (RR sold their stake in it but are still a supplier) or CFM on the 320ceo family, the 320neo is CFM or P&W, the neo engine options were chosen years ago.

330 ceo is GE, P&W or RR. 330 neo are all RR Trents

350 also all have RR engines. Again a decision made years ago.

380 is EA or RR, according to wikipedia it's about 45%:55%, RR ahead.

220 is P&W. Not an Airbus design, Bombardier made that decision years ago.

To say Brexit has had any impact on engine choices for any model produced in the foreseeable future is a red herring I'm afraid.

You're right, apparently it's actually wing manufacturing.

FreudianSlippers

Borderhopper wrote: »

The U.K. makes relatively few medicines, most come from EU companies or EU based subsidiaries. Almost no laboratory diagnostic equipment or consumables are manufactured in the U.K. and almost all is sourced from EU countries. 20 years experience in NHS medical pathology has shown me this.

Funny enough some of us were just talking about this in another (this?) thread. Ireland seems to export massive amounts of the medicines to Belgium who package and resell it.

Water John

Appearance money was mentioned in an earlier post. The politician who said, f**k business, had no problem standing in front of a JCB digger and spout his nonsense, all for fee of £10K.
David Davis takes a fee of £5K /month from the same company.
These are the principled politicians telling the UK people what's good for them.

FreudianSlippers

Folkstonian wrote: »

I don’t agree because there is no status quo. Rescinding the article 50 notice or having a second referendum doesn’t mean that things go back to how they were.

I actually agree with you on this point - but for the exact opposite reason. I think if the UK went to the EC right now and said: we'll stay in the EU if you agree that we can discuss x, y, z in the coming months with a view to constructive reform of the EU in line with the 4 freedoms and in a manner that doesn't undermine the fundamental purpose of the EU, I think the EC would agree.

funkey_monkey

7 out of the 10 constituencies here that are represented by DUP voted to leave. Only Belfast North (Dodds), Belfast South (Pengelly) and Derry (Campbell) voted to remain.
The only Remain constituency represented by a remain MP is North Down (Hermon).

Despite what we all say about the DUP (and noone hates them more than me), they are representing their voters who voted to leave - and doing it badly in my opinion. It is not their fault that the remain regions voted in abstentionists who are not representing them during this crucial phase of parliament.

The missing 7 SF MPs could have negated the influence of the DUP - actually they would have, as the DUP would not have been king makers.

People voted for SF knowing that they would not be there in parliament. Tactically, it was an error by nationalists as the stoops would have taken their place and been a counter balance to the DUP.

BREXIT sucks. I can sometimes even sense the divisions arising at work. Talk of being forced into a UI, etc. People talking half truths and lies. Something I've never encountered in my previous 18 years of work.

c.p.w.g.w

Listening to question time...the Brits are fair delusional

spacecoyote

downcow wrote: »

Many posters on here are saying the majority in NI want to stay in Eu. There is no evidence for that. Yes a very small majority voted that way in the referendum

I don't even think I need to reply & point out the obvious here but I mean...wow, that is one of the most farcical points I've seen made on this thread.

1 - Everyone keeps saying NI wanted to stay
2 - There's no evidence for that
3 - Except for the evidence that I just pointed out myself one sentence later

FrancieBrady

funkey_monkey wrote: »

7 out of the 10 constituencies here that are represented by DUP voted to leave. Only Belfast North (Dodds), Belfast South (Pengelly) and Derry (Campbell) voted to remain.
The only Remain constituency represented by a remain MP is North Down (Hermon).

Despite what we all say about the DUP (and noone hates them more than me), they are representing their voters who voted to leave - and doing it badly in my opinion. It is not their fault that the remain regions voted in abstentionists who are not representing them during this crucial phase of parliament.

The missing 7 SF MPs could have negated the influence of the DUP - actually they would have, as the DUP would not have been king makers.

People voted for SF knowing that they would not be there in parliament. Tactically, it was an error by nationalists as the stoops would have taken their place and been a counter balance to the DUP.

BREXIT sucks. I can sometimes even sense the divisions arising at work. Talk of being forced into a UI, etc. People talking half truths and lies. Something I've never encountered in my previous 18 years of work.

The question on the ballot paper was not SF or DUP, it was Remain or Leave.
The majority (across the party divide) voted to Remain.

Charles Babbage

spacecoyote wrote: »

I don't even think I need to reply & point out the obvious here but I mean...wow, that is one of the most farcical points I've seen made on this thread.

1 - Everyone keeps saying NI wanted to stay
2 - There's no evidence for that
3 - Except for the evidence that I just pointed out myself one sentence later

The majority who wished to stay in NI was greater than the majority who wished to leave in Britain.

Strazdas

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Listening to question time...the Brits are fair delusional

They're screwed basically.....talking up No Deal as if they haven't a care in the world.

Headshot

Strazdas wrote: »

They're screwed basically.....talking up No Deal as if they haven't a care in the world.

That guy in the glasses gave me a good laugh.