Brexit Discussion Thread VI

spacecoyote

https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1073221524545363973

A very good thread that's not too long talking about the realities of WTO trading rules.

Pretty much kills every point the likes of JRM were claiming about the benefit to the UK

megatron989

Anyone with any understanding of how the world works knows that a 'hard' boarder is coming and always has been. The fact Leo or May say otherwise is only because neither wants to be first to admit it.
On ships it's often a rule that no one whistle, as it could cause a storm (whistle up the wind) and the boarder is a similar situation. Who ever speaks about it first will get the blame for it after the fact. Although the blame lies fully and completely with the UK.
The Irish / northern irish boarder is also an EU frontier and must be protected. Thanks UK.

LeinsterDub

megatron989 wrote: »

Anyone with any understanding of how the world works knows that a 'hard' boarder is coming and always has been. The fact Leo or May say otherwise is only because neither wants to be first to admit it.
On ships it's often a rule that no one whistle, as it could cause a storm (whistle up the wind) and the boarder is a similar situation. Who ever speaks about it first will get the blame for it after the fact. Although the blame lies fully and completely with the UK.
The Irish / northern irish boarder is also an EU frontier and must be protected. Thanks UK.

It hasn't always been coming and it will only come if the UK leave on terms that require it to come

Zubeneschamali

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It hasn't always been coming and it will only come if the UK leave on terms that require it to come

If not for the snap election giving the DUP ridiculous power, the whole border issue would have been done and dusted in December 2018, with the agreed backstop meaning no hard border.

FrancieBrady

megatron989 wrote: »

Anyone with any understanding of how the world works knows that a 'hard' boarder is coming and always has been. The fact Leo or May say otherwise is only because neither wants to be first to admit it.
On ships it's often a rule that no one whistle, as it could cause a storm (whistle up the wind) and the boarder is a similar situation. Who ever speaks about it first will get the blame for it after the fact. Although the blame lies fully and completely with the UK.
The Irish / northern irish boarder is also an EU frontier and must be protected. Thanks UK.

Why would you ever blame an Irish Taoiseach for a border created by the British?

That border is still there, and is there at the minute btw. You can blame an Irish leader for helping to secure it (and various leaders here did)or making it harder but you cannot blame them for creating it.

funkey_monkey

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think you are. It wasn't a vote to support a particular party.
The 'voice' is quite clear - 56% of the people of northern Ireland wish to remain in the EU.

Where did I say it was a vote for a particular party?

funkey_monkey

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Why does this nonsense still persist!? I thought it was debunked several threads ago.

It isn't like we even need to discuss the political impact SF may have on the middle ground, this is basic f**king arithmetic.

If nothing else changed, and SF went to Westminster, and stood in direct opposition to every government position, DUP would STILL be kingmakers.

Without SF in Westminster, the government have a majority of 13 seats. If every elected SF representative took their seat, that would reduce the government's parliamentary majority to 6.

If we consider the motion of no confidence vote, which passed by 19 votes, even if SF voting one way hadn't convinced anyone to change sides, that leaves a majority of 12.

This isn't rocket science, it just requires basic reading ability instead of parroting off blatant mistruths without checking them for yourself.

This is without even opening the can of worms as to how much it could be seen as a betrayal of those who voted for SF based on their abstentionist platform. I'm pretty certain that there weren't a significant number of their voters who were unaware of this part.

You think the gov would have taken the same path on NI on a 10/1 split as it would have on a 10/8 split. I don't.

FrancieBrady

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Where did I say it was a vote for a particular party?

Here:

Yes, I am well aware of that. I was one of those who voted to remain.
The point I am making is that it is not up to the DUP to represent those who voted for another party - one that stands on an abstentionist manifesto. Their voices are not being heard due to they themselves voting SF.
The DUP, for reasons best known to themselves, stood on a leave platform, and that is what they are following through on.

You voted Remain...does that mean you voted Sinn Fein?

If we here in Ireland voted Yes in a referendum is the governing party allowed to actively pursue the No option just because they were on the No side?

A referendum is not a mandate for a party, it is supposed to be the voice of the people.

FreudianSlippers

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Welcome to Wednesday morning.

Do keep up dear boy.

Was debunked by Wednesday afternoon but no correction from the Indo!

FreudianSlippers

Bit cynical wrote: »

However the EU has decided, effectively, that a hard border, i.e. something that is the natural consequence of leaving the customs union, is unacceptable and therefore no transition deal is possible.

The EU says on the one hand that countries are free to leave its institutions but, on the other hand, do not accept the natural consequences arising from that. Therefore leaving the EU is worse than staying in, not because the EU is a fine and great institution, but because the EU actively makes it hard to leave.

The Commission actually said that it is obvious there would be a hard border in the event of a no-deal Brexit; regardless of whether Ireland implements one, the UK will need to implement one and, if they do that, then there will be a hard border.

It logically follows that Ireland would also conduct checks there, but it is not as necessary as the UK-side hard border.

road_high

More Indo **** stirring this morning- apparently we are “Under Siege” due to our corporation tax. We might as well call give up as a country if you take the Indo literally

LeinsterDub

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Was debunked by Wednesday afternoon but no correction from the Indo!

As James O'Brien says these sort of lies have gone around the world twice before the truth has had time to put it's pants on

Leroy42

downcow wrote: »

Ill not call any of you politicians liars as we all know what would happen
I would like to see gay marriage introduced in NI but it is a devolved matter and the crazy structures that the gfa set up means it can’t happen at this time. Abortion is much more complicated for me but I have a slight leaning to pro choice. But not sure why any of this is relevant. We have this situation because of the gfa which now everyone in Eu except those living in NI think is the greatest thing since sliced bread

OT, but none of that is the fault of the GFA. Equality is not in place simply because the DUP will not allow it. That is on the voters of NI. Abortion exactly the same.

The GFA tried to create this zombie voting system whereby the Unionist would struggle to ever actually lose power, but at the same time give the nationalist some semblance of it.

BUt even with that the UUP and then DUP could have brought in equality anytime they wanted, SF wanted it, so the only thing stopping it is themselves, not the GFA.

IN terms of what it achieved it is a pretty amazing feat. It stopped violence, it gave people previously denied a voice a voice. IT started the normalisation of politics in the North. The major flaw is that the voters and politicians in the North have not yet moved away from the past and are stuck in their narrow self interest voting patterns.

But that is not the fault of the GFA.

Leroy42

funkey_monkey wrote: »

You think the gov would have taken the same path on NI on a 10/1 split as it would have on a 10/8 split. I don't.

TM lost the vote on the deal buy the largest margin in the historyu of the HoC. Her government has been found in contempt. And yet they refuse to change course.

Do you really think a tight win would have suddenly seen a change from TM?

You might believe it but that doesn't make it plausible

funkey_monkey

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Here:



You voted Remain...does that mean you voted Sinn Fein?

If we here in Ireland voted Yes in a referendum is the governing party allowed to actively pursue the No option just because they were on the No side?

A referendum is not a mandate for a party, it is supposed to be the voice of the people.

No, it did not mean I voted for SF. But I do not expect the DUP to drop their mandate to represent me and the other remainers.
They are thankfully not the government of NI and so do not have to abide by the outcome of the vote.
It might be short sighted of them not to do so, but that is their call.

Thomas_IV

Leroy42 wrote: »

TM lost the vote on the deal buy the largest margin in the historyu of the HoC. Her government has been found in contempt. And yet they refuse to change course.

Do you really think a tight win would have suddenly seen a change from TM?

You might believe it but that doesn't make it plausible

Other governments had been toppled for less but due to this Brexit mess and the fact that all her big mouth opponents, BoJo and JRM are not to take over from her cos neither of them will ever get a majority of their own to topple her (as all their failed attempts prove).

Although there is always - theoretically - a last minute chance that they manage to avoid a no-deal crash out, I am convinced by now that Brexit will end this way, a no-deal crashing out of the EU. That with a bashing of the UK economy on the financial market of which the turmoil of the days after BrexitRef was probably just a prelude of what might come.

But they are all in this together, May, BoJo, JRM, DD, Corbyn, Foster like every MP that voted against that proposed deal (not to forget the SNP). This deal is just a 'bad deal' because the first one of December 2017 was rejected by the DUP by threatening the UK govt to drop the backing up of it if that deal would be accepted. May did her u-turn because of them and the result is this deal which was voted down on a scale indeed never seen in the HoC ever before.

Thomas_IV

funkey_monkey wrote: »

No, it did not mean I voted for SF. But I do not expect the DUP to drop their mandate to represent me and the other remainers.
They are thankfully not the government of NI and so do not have to abide by the outcome of the vote.
It might be short sighted of them not to do so, but that is their call.

Still the problem remains, NI has presently no government because of the refusal of the DUP to resume power-sharing with SF and form a NI govt. The DUP deprives NI of her say in this Brexit mess as the NI Assembly can't work either and either approve or reject that Brexit (deal or no-deal).

funkey_monkey

Leroy42 wrote: »

TM lost the vote on the deal buy the largest margin in the historyu of the HoC. Her government has been found in contempt. And yet they refuse to change course.

Do you really think a tight win would have suddenly seen a change from TM?

You might believe it but that doesn't make it plausible

As said in post above, the ideal outcome for NI was scuppered at the last minute when TM was standing in Brussels ready to sign. DUP got cold feet and the whole thing toppled resulting in the deal you are talking about.

lawred2

funkey_monkey wrote: »

As said in post above, the ideal outcome for NI was scuppered at the last minute when TM was standing in Brussels ready to sign. DUP got cold feet and the whole thing toppled resulting in the deal you are talking about.

A real politician worth any salt would have called their empty bluff

Thomas_IV

lawred2 wrote: »

A real politician worth any salt would have called their empty bluff

Quite right, but unfortunately the HoC these days is more comparable to the Muppet Show than to a serious Parliament that cares about the future of the country and the population.

It's either that there are less or no real politicians worth any salt or they are not heard. Fact is, neither May nor Corbyn fit in that description of a politician, more the selfish ones like.

FrancieBrady

funkey_monkey wrote: »

No, it did not mean I voted for SF. But I do not expect the DUP to drop their mandate to represent me and the other remainers.
They are thankfully not the government of NI and so do not have to abide by the outcome of the vote.
It might be short sighted of them not to do so, but that is their call.

They are 'partners' in the government of northern Ireland and steadfastly refuse to implement the will of the people.
This isn't just the case with Brexit, they have done the same with regard to decisions made by the majority who voted for the GFA, resulting in that process stalling and the denial of rights enjoyed by everyone else on these islands.

funkey_monkey

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They are 'partners' in the government of northern Ireland and steadfastly refuse to implement the will of the people.
This isn't just the case with Brexit, they have done the same with regard to decisions made by the majority who voted for the GFA, resulting in that process stalling and the denial of rights enjoyed by everyone else on these islands.

We do not have a government. It collapsed over 2 years ago.

FrancieBrady

funkey_monkey wrote: »

We do not have a government. It collapsed over 2 years ago.

Because one party steadfastly refuses to recognise the democratic will expressed by the people and are supported in taking party positions when they have been mandated to do otherwise.

josip

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If not for the snap election giving the DUP ridiculous power, the whole border issue would have been done and dusted in December 2018, with the agreed backstop meaning no hard border.

Perhaps, but in that scenario the ERG and other hard Brexiters would have found another mast to nail their colours to.

Hurrache

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Was debunked by Wednesday afternoon but no correction from the Indo!

They're taking a different attacking approach today. I think someone needs to take a trip to the editors office to check they're not all being held in there by a Brexiteer expedition force.

Under Siege: world leaders take 'tax haven' swipe at us

Hurrache

Car crash interview with Tim Martin of Wetherspoons as to what his issues are with the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2019/jan/25/owen-jones-meets-tim-martin-wetherspoons-no-deal-brexit-poverty-wages-dont-ask-childish-questions-video

BonnieSituation

road_high wrote: »

More Indo **** stirring this morning- apparently we are “Under Siege” due to our corporation tax. We might as well call give up as a country if you take the Indo literally

Just reading through from last night and haven't read anything else so far this morning, so I was going to ask what crap the indo has published today.

Anyone else getting suspicious about the mendacious nature of the stories? Qui bono?

RT funneling a load of cash to Talbot Street?

road_high

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Just reading through from last night and haven't read anything else so far this morning, so I was going to ask what crap the indo has published today.

Anyone else getting suspicious about the mendacious nature of the stories? Qui bono?

RT funneling a load of cash to Talbot Street?

Was headline in their app version- I can’t seem to copy paste it to here! It was an article about taxation and Davos conference.

Yea, definitely something or someone is trying to create a chasm between us and europe.

funkey_monkey

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Because one party steadfastly refuses to recognise the democratic will expressed by the people and are supported in taking party positions when they have been mandated to do otherwise.

Brexit is a Westminster issue. The government is conservatives. As much as I world have preferred the DUP to adopt a more balanced approach, they are within their rights to go to Westminster on a brexit platform as that is what they stood for and were elected in.

If, however, the assembly was up and running, then I would expect OFMDFM to adopt the will of the people and lobby TM accordingly.

However, both SF and DUP have abandoned the electorate. And so here we are...

road_high

https://m.independent.ie/business/brexit/under-siege-world-leaders-take-tax-haven-swipe-at-us-37747655.html

Here we go...