Brexit Discussion Thread VI

ilovesmybrick

Infini wrote:

Same myself. There's thing's that I wont like or be critical about the EU but the whole point is to hammer away at them till they cop on and fix something if there's a problem not pull a "screw you guys I'm going home" routine because one cant get their own way. The whole reason the EU came about was because of the need to pool resources to protect all involved its less costly and offers more protection. The problem with the UK is they cant see that and its going to bite them in the áss when its too late.

In fact the simple thing is that's how the EU works. We don't like some things, others do and we reach compromise. Is it ideal on a personal or national level? Not always. Does it work? Mostly, but imperfectly. But we can fix the imperfections.

Infini

downcow wrote: »

The backstop can lock us in forever to a situation where we have entirely different arrangements to the rest of the UK (and please don’t again bring up the current devolved matters which are chosen by the people -some crazy discriminatory stuff I know). It leaves us under the control of the Eu while rest of UK leaves. I is completely undemocratic. And it is not needed.

Based on what? The whole "backstop" is meant to be a case of "In case of Emergency" and temporary. It's basically meant to be superseded in the long run with a trade agreement. The whole point is this is not a physical border between the UK and NI its a trade one and mainly to keep sub standard products out and allow NI to be used as a backdoor.

There's no details on this position that affect you negatively. It hardly leaves you under the control of the EU either. Hell it doesn't even stop you exporting to Britain. The whole hysteria on this is more of "oh noes it seperates us..... somehow" but is utterly lacking on where this practically affects you. On the other hand were seeing how being removed from the EU IS going to practically affect you aka Trade slowed to a narrow flow because of lack of permits and people being cut off which is FAR more acute and will hurt severely.

downcow

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Okay, maybe I'm only speaking for myself as someone that remembers the end of the troubles and the checkpoints, and is from the Republic, but this is not a ploy to force the North to rejoin the South as you have been making out or insinuating the past while. This is the result of a poorly considered decision by Cameron.

You already have many different arrangements than the UK. That has been a fact for a very long time. The South has done incredibly well from membership of the EU, as has the North.

Northern Ireland has no devolved government at the moment. You're only representatives are the hardline DUP members in Westminster, and for around two years now what has the UK done to right this democratic deficit? You say you're left under the control of the EU if there's a divergence. What control do you have now?

We can elect mps. Ok sf don’t represent anyone but their voters could vote for a party that do.
I don’t know how you define ‘hardline’ I don’t vote dup but I have to accept they are the biggest party in NI. Would you refer to sf as hardline? I’m interested.

Professor Moriarty

It's not just German and French people that are disliked. Writing in The Telegraph yesterday, Ruth Dudley Edwards called An Taoiseach Leo Varadkar a "useful idiot". Nice to see the Tories sharing the love.

murphaph

judeboy101 wrote: »

Actually the EU did cave. As an EU citizen I cannot fly to switzerland in the morning and get a job. Firstly if the region I get the job in has higher than average unemployment, the job must go to a swiss first. Secondly I must prove that I have integrated into swiss society. That's not from, that's quotas by stealth.

Got a link for any of that? AFAIK there is FoM for EU citizens in CH.

lawred2

murphaph wrote: »

Got a link for any of that? AFAIK there is FoM for EU citizens in CH.

you do

I'm not sure what he's on about

There is some movement to maybe put an end to it in Switzerland but if they retract FOM then the entire set of bilateral arrangements with the EU are all rendered null..

A Hard Swexit

downcow

Infini wrote: »

Based on what? The whole "backstop" is meant to be a case of "In case of Emergency" and temporary. It's basically meant to be superseded in the long run with a trade agreement. The whole point is this is not a physical border between the UK and NI its a trade one and mainly to keep sub standard products out and allow NI to be used as a backdoor.

There's no details on this position that affect you negatively. It hardly leaves you under the control of the EU either. Hell it doesn't even stop you exporting to Britain. The whole hysteria on this is more of "oh noes it seperates us..... somehow" but is utterly lacking on where this practically affects you. On the other hand were seeing how being removed from the EU IS going to practically affect you aka Trade slowed to a narrow flow because of lack of permits and people being cut off which is FAR more acute and will hurt severely.

If the backstop is so benign they why don’t you do us a favour and have all the checks you want at the Irish see moved to the French ireland ferries. I would love to know how you can keep telling me to just knuckle down and accept it while you don’t want anything to compromise free movement between you and France. Try to step back and look at what you are saying

An Ciarraioch

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's not just German and French people that are disliked. Writing in The Telegraph yesterday, Ruth Dudley Edwards called An Taoiseach Leo Varadkar a "useful idiot". Nice to see the Tories sharing the love.

That could have been her Sunday Independent column from any point in the last three years.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

If the backstop is so benign they why don’t you do us a favour and have all the checks you want at the Irish see moved to the French ireland ferries. I would love to know how you can keep telling me to just knuckle down and accept it while you don’t want anything to compromise free movement between you and France. Try to step back and look at what you are saying

What are you on about, we are not leaving the EU...YOU ARE. You need to compromise to get a deal.

Jesus. :eek:

Strazdas

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's not just German and French people that are disliked. Writing in The Telegraph yesterday, Ruth Dudley Edwards called An Taoiseach Leo Varadkar a "useful idiot". Nice to see the Tories sharing the love.

She's doing herself no favours whatsoever attacking the Taoiseach in a newspaper aimed at appealing to English Brexiteers. She could perhaps get away with such an argument in the Sunday Independent.

murphaph

downcow wrote: »

The backstop can lock us in forever to a situation where we have entirely different arrangements to the rest of the UK (and please don’t again bring up the current devolved matters which are chosen by the people -some crazy discriminatory stuff I know). It leaves us under the control of the Eu while rest of UK leaves. I is completely undemocratic. And it is not needed.

Then let the people of NI vote on the backstop. Most would accept it I believe. It's actually a sweet deal for NI.

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

If the backstop is so benign they why don’t you do us a favour and have all the checks you want at the Irish see moved to the French ireland ferries. I would love to know how you can keep telling me to just knuckle down and accept it while you don’t want anything to compromise free movement between you and France. Try to step back and look at what you are saying

For a second I did feel like you were on to something but then I realised that Brexit and Cakeism are British problems - and as such they require British solutions.

Ireland is not leaving the party

But Britian is - so either find a solution or crash your economy.

And the NI economy isn't exactly much to begin with so crashing it would seem rather counter productive to me. Especially over some flegs.

You can't eat flegs as one great man once said

An Ciarraioch

downcow wrote: »

If the backstop is so benign they why don’t you do us a favour and have all the checks you want at the Irish see moved to the French ireland ferries. I would love to know how you can keep telling me to just knuckle down and accept it while you don’t want anything to compromise free movement between you and France. Try to step back and look at what you are saying

Under the backstop, only GB goods would be checked, and in GB ports - there would be no checks required in Northern Ireland.

murphaph

downcow wrote: »

If the backstop is so benign they why don’t you do us a favour and have all the checks you want at the Irish see moved to the French ireland ferries. I would love to know how you can keep telling me to just knuckle down and accept it while you don’t want anything to compromise free movement between you and France. Try to step back and look at what you are saying

The difference is, we didn't vote to change anything.

Infini

downcow wrote: »

We can elect mps. Ok sf don’t represent anyone but their voters could vote for a party that do.
I don’t know how you define ‘hardline’ I don’t vote dup but I have to accept they are the biggest party in NI. Would you refer to sf as hardline? I’m interested.

The shinners are more rabble rousers in perception here but let's face it they're not compounding the problems. The DUP in the past though has made somewhat borderline malicious statements like "blood red lines". Inflammatory and needless and doesn't help at all. They also had involvement in that mysterious donation with Brexit which they refuse to disclose the donor which reeks of cronyism.

Even if you don't vote for the DUP you shouldn't let them away with low standards either. Look at the whole national broadband thing and how a minister resigned because of some rather dodgy meetings. He might or might not have done something wrong but he had the integrity to resign when found out. When Arlene got in trouble with the Cash for Ash she was asked to resign temporarily pending an investigation. She not only refused to but helped bring down the executive over it. They lack integrity and ignore responsibility.

downcow wrote: »

If the backstop is so benign they why don’t you do us a favour and have all the checks you want at the Irish see moved to the French ireland ferries. I would love to know how you can keep telling me to just knuckle down and accept it while you don’t want anything to compromise free movement between you and France. Try to step back and look at what you are saying

Your the one who want's NI to leave the EU. Ireland is a part of the EU and the single market hence the backstop. It's the UK who wants to leave. If they weren't leaving the single market and customs union the backstop would be irrelevant. There's nothing on our side to compromise here. You also evaded my question on how it's supposed to negatively affect NI exactly.

prawnsambo

downcow wrote: »

If the backstop is so benign they why don’t you do us a favour and have all the checks you want at the Irish see moved to the French ireland ferries. I would love to know how you can keep telling me to just knuckle down and accept it while you don’t want anything to compromise free movement between you and France. Try to step back and look at what you are saying

I think you need to look at what you're saying. Who's doing the leaving here? Ireland? Do you actually believe that this is a solution? Because if so, you're deluded.

A Dub in Glasgo

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Ruth Dudley Edwards called An Taoiseach Leo Varadkar a "useful idiot"

Well she is the biggest one of all

ilovesmybrick

If the DUP don't strike you as hard line I'm honestly lost for words. And I don't, nor would I ever, vote sinn fein. The DUP are a party that were fundamentally opposed to stopping a conflict that killed over 3,500 people. This is the worry we have in the south.

You may have been spared the refugees that came down because of the petrol bombs thrown in their family windows in Belfast, but I remember those kids coming into my primary school. Any party that considers the GFA a negotiating tool, or dismisses it, is hardline in my opinion. Because I don't want my kids to hear about bombs thrown in a class mates window as I did in third class. Or having a gun pointed to my head crossing the border at the age of 7.

What is, to you, worth the risk of that coming back?


And as an edit: this may be unpopular to some posters on this forum, but I have no interest in reunification m. I think it would be a mistake to try and incorporate both the northern Irish subvention and their politics in the south.

A Dub in Glasgo

downcow wrote: »

If the backstop is so benign they why don’t you do us a favour and have all the checks you want at the Irish see moved to the French ireland ferries. I would love to know how you can keep telling me to just knuckle down and accept it while you don’t want anything to compromise free movement between you and France. Try to step back and look at what you are saying

Step back and educate yourself about WTF is going on rather than demonstrate your ignorance

UsedToWait

downcow wrote: »

Fixed that for you! But I mightn’t be around long because what’s good for the goose dare not be said about the gander I fear

“The sad truth is the Irish are utter idiots of the moat dangerous kind because theyre too incompetent and stuck in their blinkered views of the world to actually be rational.”

Of course you won't be around for long if you're spouting this sort of inflammatory sh1te.

I get the impression you've run out of road in trying to apply lipstick to the Brexit pig, and are putting a metaphorical gun to your own head,.

Much like your idols in London.

Captain Obvious

downcow wrote: »

If the backstop is so benign they why don’t you do us a favour and have all the checks you want at the Irish see moved to the French ireland ferries. I would love to know how you can keep telling me to just knuckle down and accept it while you don’t want anything to compromise free movement between you and France. Try to step back and look at what you are saying

Why don'y you? Checks between Ireland and France would be a breach of EU rules. Checks between Ireland and NI would breach GFA. Checks between NI and UK mainland hurt feelings.

Akrasia

downcow wrote: »

The backstop can lock us in forever to a situation where we have entirely different arrangements to the rest of the UK (and please don’t again bring up the current devolved matters which are chosen by the people -some crazy discriminatory stuff I know). It leaves us under the control of the Eu while rest of UK leaves. I is completely undemocratic. And it is not needed.

Nope, because the geniuses in Westminster have assured the EU that they have a technological solution that means there can be a frictionless border.

All they have to do is implement their own proposal and the backstop will not be needed.

The only reason anyone should oppose a backstop is if they think the 'technological solution' is a barefaced lie that can never work, in which case you should hold those liars to account to find a long term solution to the Irish border and stop blaming the EU

mickoneill31

I listened to the Brexitcast podcast today.
Then I listened to Brexit Republic. Light years of a difference in terms of quality and analysis.
The BBC has really plumetted in the last couple of years.

Might be worth a listen to some of the posters who don't have much of a clue about why the back stop is necessary.

Mr.Nice Guy

I don't know if it was mentioned but there was a good Brexit programme on BBC Radio 4 last night. You can listen to it here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00025d4

Best piece I've heard on the BBC in a long time. Nice to finally hear it being stated that the DUP's influence is disproportionate to their level of support.

lawred2

mickoneill31 wrote: »

I listened to the Brexitcast podcast today.
Then I listened to Brexit Republic. Light years of a difference in terms of quality and analysis.
The BBC has really plumetted in the last couple of years.

Might be worth a listen to some of the posters who don't have much of a clue about why the back stop is necessary.

which one is the more enlightened one?

Laois_Man

I see Philip Hammond is raising hopes about "the EU dropping some of its red lines" and that some EU leaders want to change the deal

What's he on about?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-46999458

FrancieBrady

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Why don'y you? Checks between Ireland and France would be a breach of EU rules. Checks between Ireland and NI would breach GFA. Checks between NI and UK mainland hurt feelings.

Spot on. Unionist objections to the backstop are based on abstract notions which they have been guaranteed have no import in Westminster. It does not for a second threaten their place in the UK.

FrancieBrady

Laois_Man wrote: »

I see Philip Hammond is raising hopes about "the EU dropping some of its red lines" and that some EU leaders want to change the deal

What's he on about?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-46999458

Poland, no doubt.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What are you on about, we are not leaving the EU...YOU ARE. You need to compromise to get a deal.

Jesus. :eek:

This is the endless circular discussion.
I get told there is nothing in this to worry about and nothing that challenges my identity etc
Then I suggest that if you guys really feel like that then sure you take it.
Then people almost have kittens lol
You can’t have it not ways

First Up

Captain Obvious wrote:

Why don'y you? Checks between Ireland and France would be a breach of EU rules. Checks between Ireland and NI would breach GFA. Checks between NI and UK mainland hurt feelings.

Well put, but the whole Brexit nonsense is about "feelings" and we know how important symbolism is to all parties in N. Ireland.