Brexit Discussion Thread VI

Akrasia

mickoneill31 wrote: »

I listened to the Brexitcast podcast today.
Then I listened to Brexit Republic. Light years of a difference in terms of quality and analysis.
The BBC has really plumetted in the last couple of years.

Might be worth a listen to some of the posters who don't have much of a clue about why the back stop is necessary.

I heard it too. Brexitcast was awful!

They spent the first few minutes gloating about making it onto a list in a womans lifestyle magazine because they're so 'hilarious' and then spent the rest of the episode fundamentally misunderstanding the recent developments with the commission and the backstop.

There wasn't one iota of interesting or insightful analysis in the whole show. Completely different to Brexit Republic who had actually talked to the people involved in the negotiations to find out what their positions are

mickoneill31

lawred2 wrote: »

which one is the more enlightened one?

Brexit Republic. The BBC one is more like a hobbyist one.
The play an interview and then interpret it assways.

downcow

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

If the DUP don't strike you as hard line I'm honestly lost for words. And I don't, nor would I ever, vote sinn fein. The DUP are a party that were fundamentally opposed to stopping a conflict that killed over 3,500 people. This is the worry we have in the south.

You may have been spared the refugees that came down because of the petrol bombs thrown in their family windows in Belfast, but I remember those kids coming into my primary school. Any party that considers the GFA a negotiating tool, or dismisses it, is hardline in my opinion. Because I don't want my kids to hear about bombs thrown in a class mates window as I did in third class. Or having a gun pointed to my head crossing the border at the age of 7.

What is, to you, worth the risk of that coming back?


And as an edit: this may be unpopular to some posters on this forum, but I have no interest in reunification m. I think it would be a mistake to try and incorporate both the northern Irish subvention and their politics in the south.

That is so prejudiced and clouded by sectarianism I wouldn’t know where to start to reply to it.

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

I was never away anywhere but thanks for your concern.
This might shock you but I have spent most of my life working in peace building. I suppose it’s my interest to learn from other opinions that brings me on here.

It is shocking in fairness as I'd have expected that someone involved in peace building would not have started neutral before changing to pro on Brexit.

listermint

downcow wrote: »

This is the endless circular discussion.
I get told there is nothing in this to worry about and nothing that challenges my identity etc
Then I suggest that if you guys really feel like that then sure you take it.
Then people almost have kittens lol
You can’t have it not ways

Ok let's start being clear rational and honest now.

The stuff you are cheering on , this brexit. This back stop removal this remaining the same as England. All of this fun stuff you have in your heart or your head will be the end of northern Ireland as you know it.

There will be a united Ireland referendum and it will pass. That's the actual reality. Not that I'm super happy about it tbh as it would bring the sort of archaic attitude you've displayed so far in this thread back into this country down south . But alas we are an island and a special one that punches above its weight in the world so so be it I say.

But what I will say is the likes of your own attitude and the dups has done more to accelerate the end of the northern Ireland project than anything ever before.


How does that make you feel. Genuinely feel

prawnsambo

downcow wrote: »

This is the endless circular discussion.
I get told there is nothing in this to worry about and nothing that challenges my identity etc
Then I suggest that if you guys really feel like that then sure you take it.
Then people almost have kittens lol
You can’t have it not ways

Except, as usual it's a fact free opinion. Perhaps if you phrased your question differently, but right now, Ireland is not leaving the EU, you are. So if there are lumps to take, it's those leaving the club that have to take them. The rest of us are just trying to minimise the collateral damage and make sure that those who depend on this country to look out for their interests are looked after. So yes, we can have it both ways, because we actually didn't have a say in your brext vote. Have a think about that.

A Dub in Glasgo

downcow wrote: »

I wouldn’t know where to start to reply to it.

Give it a try

mickoneill31

listermint wrote: »

Ok let's start being clear rational and honest now.

The stuff you are cheering on , this brexit. This back stop removal this remaining the same as England. All of this fun stuff you have in your heart or your head will be the end of northern Ireland as you know it.

There will be a united Ireland referendum and it will pass. That's the actual reality. Not that I'm super happy about it tbh as it would bring the sort of archaic attitude you've displayed so far in this thread back into this country down south . But alas we are an island and a special one that punches above its weight in the world so so bet it I say.

But what I will say is the likes of your own attitude and the dups has done more to accelerate the end of the northern Ireland project than anything ever before.


How does that make you feel. Genuinely feel

Absolutely agree with that post. I don't really care about NI. They could stay part of the UK forever for all I care. But I think Brexit is going to result in united Ireland. It'll be painful for us but it has to be done.
And pretty much thanks to the DUP.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is the endless circular discussion.
I get told there is nothing in this to worry about and nothing that challenges my identity etc
Then I suggest that if you guys really feel like that then sure you take it.
Then people almost have kittens lol
You can’t have it not ways

Why would I, as a member of the EU, discommode myself because you wish to leave with a sweet deal?

I would feel separated from the rest of the EU if I was asked to do that...but I didn't ask to Leave the EU...YOU did.

It really is time for unionism to grow up and own the consequences of your actions here.

Infini

downcow wrote: »

That is so prejudiced and clouded by sectarianism I wouldn’t know where to start to reply to it.

Honestly WHERE is the sectarianism because seriously this is basically borderline trolling here. He makes a very valid point from his experience and your basically trying to hand-wave it away and completely avoid the question as though you don't want to. Your just try playing it off as something it's not because either you don't want to answer or are incapable of doing so because it undermines your views.

There's a difference between having a point and trying to obfuscate and evade and your clearly falling into the latter here so comeon at least make a serious attempt to answer rather than evade it's nonconstructive and pointless.

mickoneill31

https://twitter.com/EMA_News/status/1088844259934064640?s=19

Mental

RobMc59

prawnsambo wrote: »

I took it to be litres. The maximum tonnage allowed on roads is 54 tonnes afaik, which would be roughly 50k litres, depending on the density of the liquid.

The weight of each tanker delivery is 24500 kg-about 27000 litres,into a 90000 kg capacity tank.There are 2,sometimes 3 deliverys each week and as I said earlier,is only available from Germany or Holland which is going to be scary if a hard brexit.

Hurrache

mickoneill31 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EMA_News/status/1088844259934064640?s=19

Mental

Negotiator extraordinaire David Davis strikes again.

prawnsambo

RobMc59 wrote: »

The weight of each tanker delivery is 24500 kg-about 27000 litres,into a 90000 kg capacity tank.There are 2,sometimes 3 deliverys each week and as I said earlier,is only available from Germany or Holland which is going to be scary if a hard brexit.

Well all I can hope for on your behalf is that either May's deal gets through or they call the whole thing off. Parts of me (small admittedly) would like to see the hammer fall on the hardest of hard brexiters with a crash out, but I'm mostly ashamed of those parts and prefer to think of the people I know will suffer for something they didn't want and hope for their sake it doesn't happen. There's been enough damage done already.

unit 1

Ok so the uk crash out and we trade under wto rules while a fta is negotiated. Surely the first item on the fta talks agenda would be the border question, and we are back on the backstop merry go round.

The backstop is simply not up for grabs, nor can it ever be. If the uk find wto rules not to their liking they will still have to grab the nettle in the trade talks.

Put simply from day one they never had any leverage over the eu and should finally man up and admit their stupid mistake and cancel brexit, any compensation due for the costs incurred trying to mediate for their silly escapade would probably be a bridge too far but steps would be needed to prevent others from getting the same silly ideas.

downcow

listermint wrote: »

Ok let's start being clear rational and honest now.

The stuff you are cheering on , this brexit. This back stop removal this remaining the same as England. All of this fun stuff you have in your heart or your head will be the end of northern Ireland as you know it.

There will be a united Ireland referendum and it will pass. That's the actual reality. Not that I'm super happy about it tbh as it would bring the sort of archaic attitude you've displayed so far in this thread back into this country down south . But alas we are an island and a special one that punches above its weight in the world so so be it I say.

But what I will say is the likes of your own attitude and the dups has done more to accelerate the end of the northern Ireland project than anything ever before.


How does that make you feel. Genuinely feel

Tbh if feel it is nonsense. I am not cheering brexit. I am picking the best of two less than wonderful options.
Your right I am opposed to the backstop for same reason you guys go bananas any time there is mention of the slightest check at you French border.
We are not interested in being like England tbh that’s a pretty naive suggestion given the fantastic diversity across England I don’t know which bit you think we are trying to copy. We want to remain in a union with the other diverse regions of the UK.
And then your argument completely falls down when you tells us how you know the future voting habits of NI public at a time of flux. I am super confident that you don’t need to worry about your fear of a UI it’s not happening. It would be like turkeys voting for Xmas. I have many friends in south who envy our free prescriptions free doc appts etc etc. Do you realise the swing that would be required. The last serious polls put those wanting UI we under 25%. So relax and don’t you be worrying

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

That is so prejudiced and clouded by sectarianism I wouldn’t know where to start to reply to it.

To be honest if you're going to accuse someone of sectarianism you probably should give a fair attempt at a reply..

I'm afraid what you've just posted doesn't cut it

It's not much more than baiting

prawnsambo

downcow wrote: »

Tbh if feel it is nonsense. I am not cheering brexit. I am picking the best of two less than wonderful options.
Your right I am opposed to the backstop for same reason you guys go bananas any time there is mention of the slightest check at you French border.

We're. Not. Leaving.

Enzokk

downcow wrote: »

This is the endless circular discussion.
I get told there is nothing in this to worry about and nothing that challenges my identity etc
Then I suggest that if you guys really feel like that then sure you take it.
Then people almost have kittens lol
You can’t have it not ways

I think you are talking about putting a border between us and the EU. We have not voted for that. If the backstop is agreed and it comes into effect then nothing changes for residents of NI. You will still be able to cross the border to Ireland without hassles. You will still be able to travel to the UK without a hassle. You will still be able to call yourself British and your laws will still mostly come from Westminster, especially if the DUP and SF doesn't agree to reconvene Stormont.

If the government decides to restrict the movement of people from the EU to the UK then you get to stand in the same lines as those that share your passport waiting to visit EU countries.

An Ciarraioch

downcow wrote: »

Tbh if feel it is nonsense. I am not cheering brexit. I am picking the best of two less than wonderful options.
Your right I am opposed to the backstop for same reason you guys go bananas any time there is mention of the slightest check at you French border.
We are not interested in being like England tbh that’s a pretty naive suggestion given the fantastic diversity across England I don’t know which bit you think we are trying to copy. We want to remain in a union with the other diverse regions of the UK.
And then your argument completely falls down when you tells us how you know the future voting habits of NI public at a time of flux. I am super confident that you don’t need to worry about your fear of a UI it’s not happening. It would be like turkeys voting for Xmas. I have many friends in south who envy our free prescriptions free doc appts etc etc. Do you realise the swing that would be required. The last serious polls put those wanting UI we under 25%. So relax and don’t you be worrying

58% of DUP supporters favour a soft Brexit, so surely Sammy & Co should be pushing for Norway Plus?

https://mobile.twitter.com/LucidTalk/status/1088066433299505152

FrancieBrady

Enzokk wrote: »

I think you are talking about putting a border between us and the EU. We have not voted for that. If the backstop is agreed and it comes into effect then nothing changes for residents of NI. You will still be able to cross the border to Ireland without hassles. You will still be able to travel to the UK without a hassle. You will still be able to call yourself British and your laws will still mostly come from Westminster, especially if the DUP and SF doesn't agree to reconvene Stormont.

If the government decides to restrict the movement of people from the EU to the UK then you get to stand in the same lines as those that share your passport waiting to visit EU countries.

And they can cry into their soup about being separate from the motherland, but the fact is the motherland has tried to agree this backstop twice now, despite unionists and look odds on to succeed.

downcow

lawred2 wrote: »

To be honest if you're going to accuse someone of sectarianism you probably should give a fair attempt at a reply..

I'm afraid what you've just posted doesn't cut it

It's not much more than baiting

I don’t want to dwell on this as it’s off topic but you are baiting me to respond

Here is what I feel is spawned by sectarianism. And before you jump all over me I am also influenced by my sectarianism but I have tried to raise my self awareness of it. It seems there is an incredible lack of self awareness of this in nationalist community
Here’s some of what he said

“ The DUP are a party that were fundamentally opposed to stopping a conflict that killed over 3,500 people. This is the worry we have in the south.”
??????

“Any party that considers the GFA a negotiating tool, or dismisses it, is hardline in my opinion”
Exactly what Irish politicians have been doing most recently tonight your premier

“ I think it would be a mistake to try and incorporate both the northern Irish subvention and their politics in the south.”
Those terrible northerners

Strazdas

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

58% of DUP supporters favour a soft Brexit, so surely Sammy & Co should be pushing for Norway Plus?

https://mobile.twitter.com/LucidTalk/status/1088066433299505152

In fairness, the DUP (apart from Wilson and Paisley Jr) couldn't care less what happens with Brexit, even it being cancelled. They just want to be seen doing the same thing as GB is doing.

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

I don’t want to dwell on this as it’s off topic but you are baiting me to respond

Here is what I feel is spawned by sectarianism. And before you jump all over me I am also influenced by my sectarianism but I have tried to raise my self awareness of it. It seems there is an incredible lack of self awareness of this in nationalist community
Here’s some of what he said

“ The DUP are a party that were fundamentally opposed to stopping a conflict that killed over 3,500 people. This is the worry we have in the south.”
??????

“Any party that considers the GFA a negotiating tool, or dismisses it, is hardline in my opinion”
Exactly what Irish politicians have been doing most recently tonight your premier

“ I think it would be a mistake to try and incorporate both the northern Irish subvention and their politics in the south.”
Those terrible northerners

eh don't start that business now - I didn't follow up an unexplained accusation of sectarianism with a flounce

Asking you to justify such an accusation is not baiting now.

As for the second bit - what exactly is it that Varadkar is supposed to have done 'tonight'?

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

We are not interested in being like England tbh that’s a pretty naive suggestion given the fantastic diversity across England I don’t know which bit you think we are trying to copy. We want to remain in a union with the other diverse regions of the UK.

There you go again, contradicting yourself in the space of two consecutive sentences, and making a great case for staying in the EU.
So (a) We are not interested in being like England if you don't want to be like them, why are you supporting the position of xenophobic English nationalists? Because that's all Brexit is. Your fellow countrymen voted to REMAIN in the EU, so please, please explain why you've decided to sell out for no return?
And (b) We want to remain in a union with the other diverse regions If you want to remain in a union of diverse regions, there's none more diverse than the EU, so why are you so determined to leave it?

downcow wrote: »

I am super confident that you don’t need to worry about your fear of a UI it’s not happening. It would be like turkeys voting for Xmas. ... The last serious polls put those wanting UI we under 25%.

My summary of recent surveys early this morning suggests that your confidence may be misplaced.

downcow

lawred2 wrote: »

eh don't start that business now - I didn't follow up an unexplained accusation of sectarianism with a flounce

Asking you to justify such an accusation is not baiting now.

As for the second bit - what exactly is it that Varadkar is supposed to have done 'tonight'?

Well I don’t know about your media etc down there but everyone was fairly united up here that he was useing a threat of violence on the border in a wholly unacceptable way. SDLP sf unionists and political commentators.
But sure in your eyes he done nothing wrong

prawnsambo

downcow wrote: »

Well I don’t know about your media etc down there but everyone was fairly united up here that he was useing a threat of violence on the border in a wholly unacceptable way. SDLP sf unionists and political commentators.
But sure in your eyes he done nothing wrong

Any links to this united feeling up there? No offence mate, but you've not got a great record of backing up statements like that on here.

Bit cynical

unit 1 wrote: »

Ok so the uk crash out and we trade under wto rules while a fta is negotiated. Surely the first item on the fta talks agenda would be the border question, and we are back on the backstop merry go round.

The backstop is simply not up for grabs, nor can it ever be. If the uk find wto rules not to their liking they will still have to grab the nettle in the trade talks.

Put simply from day one they never had any leverage over the eu and should finally man up and admit their stupid mistake and cancel brexit, any compensation due for the costs incurred trying to mediate for their silly escapade would probably be a bridge too far but steps would be needed to prevent others from getting the same silly ideas.

I think we need to remember that if the UK crash out, then the hard border will be in place fairly soon afterwards. It is no longer a case of the backstop being insurance against the hard border just as you can't take out insurance against a crash that has already happened. There will be no open border to preserve. New solutions will have to be found. That will require flexibility. The old "we're not budging" will not work from either side.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well I don’t know about your media etc down there but everyone was fairly united up here that he was useing a threat of violence on the border in a wholly unacceptable way. SDLP sf unionists and political commentators.
But sure in your eyes he done nothing wrong

Do you think customs installations and personnel won't be attacked?

downcow

Bit cynical wrote: »

I think we need to remember that if the UK crash out, then the hard border will be in place fairly soon afterwards. It is no longer a case of the backstop being insurance against the hard border just as you can't take out insurance against a crash that has already happened. There will be no open border to preserve. New solutions will have to be found. That will require flexibility. The old "we're not budging" will not work from either side.

Totally agree. We will see sensible compromise from both sides
Of course if the backstop were in place then Eu would not be interested in any compromise