Brexit Discussion Thread VI

trellheim

Help me with this. I am genuinely confused. You keep saying there will be no more negotiating.
If we leave with no deal because we can’t accept the backstop being potentially permanent, are you seriously saying there will be no further negotiations?
Can you simply not stomache the reality that there will be an ever growing plethora of mutually beneficial agreements develop?
This is the ludicrous belief that many are stating here almost as a threat to the UK.

You are doing everything possible to troll this forum.

FACT : UK Came up with the backstop (not the EU)
FACT : UK and EU agreed the backstop in the December 2017 agreement to move onto trade
FACT : UK and EU agreed the backstop in the WA

It is not the fault of the EU that the UK is now jibbing at the post

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am honest unaware of which one we lost on. Maybe you could help me. Compromise and generosity is not loss.

I don't wish to derail the thread so I will give one example and you can research the rest. Starting positions, compared to where they ended up, here is Ian Paisley's starting position on the AIA:

“Where do the terrorists operate from? From the Irish Republic, that’s where they come from. Where do the terrorists return to for sanctuary? To the Irish Republic.

“And yet Mrs. Thatcher tells us that that Republic must have some say in our province.

We say, never, never, never, never.

End position was Ian Paisley sitting in government operating an international agreement between Ireland and Great Britain to run northern Ireland.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You just arnt hearing me.
I was neutral
I don’t believe in referendums but there was a democratic decision to hold it
I didn’t vote
My people voted out
I am a democrat
Still neatral in that I don’t think economically in or out is going to make much difference
Backstop situation is totally unacceptable so I with the UK and leaving

You might not like it but that’s where me and many others are

So why are you blaming Ireland for your feelings being hurt and not 'your people' who have put you in this position?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't wish to derail the thread so I will give one example and you can research the rest. Starting positions, compared to where they ended up, here is Ian Paisley's starting position on the AIA:



End position was Ian Paisley sitting in government operating an international agreement between Ireland and Great Britain to run northern Ireland.

I could take the points apart but it is off topic and I will answer very briefly and then I’m not commenting again on it.
Ian Paisley (and I am not a supporter) ended up sitting in a British devolved government in norther ireland which ireland had zero power in and enjoyed watching the die hard republican abstentists become ministers in this British Parliament.
I suggest if you want enlightened then open another thread or talk to any of the disgruntled republicans
That’s me finished on that subject on this thread

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So why are you blaming Ireland for your feelings being hurt and not 'your people' who have put you in this position?

My feelings are not hurt. I think you are projecting your feelings on to me

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I could take the points apart but it is off topic and I will answer and then I’m not commenting again on it.
Ian Paisley (and I am not a supporter) ended up sitting in a British devolved government in norther ireland which ireland had zero power in and enjoyed watching the die hard republican abstentists become ministers in this British Parliament.
I suggest if you want enlightened then open another thread or talk to any of the disgruntled republicans
That’s me finished on that subject on this thread

I think you have adequately demonstrated the bubble of self serving justification that DUPers/some Unionists live in.
Utterly fabulous to watch. Arlene displayed some of it with her comments on there never being a hard border in Ireland.

There was a discussion on the BBC the other night on 100 years of the UUP and two of the contributors were at least honest on this ability to fool nobody but themselves on their position.
We are seeing them doing it again which will further erode unionism's strength.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

My feelings are not hurt. I think you are projecting your feelings on to me

Essentially the backstop hurts only how much you 'feel' British. You have recieved adequate reassurance on that from Westminster.

funkey_monkey

Graham Brady's amendment requires an alternative to the backstop for after the time period has elapsed.
Where are they going to find it?

Capt'n Midnight

briany wrote: »

There's a big problem with the debate going on in the UK - the divide is around 50/50, but neither side seem to believe that the other side should have any say in their respective preferred scenarios.

50/50 Leave/Remain

Leave is 50/50 Hard/Soft

Hard is 50/50 Regardless of the cost/It'll be a New Jerusalem

Soft is 50/50 Mays Deal+/The EU will give us unicorns at the 11th hour because they need us more

It's 50:50 all the way down

May's deal doesn't even have 25% support with the public.



There's no point in claiming to take back control of immigration when you
A - don't use the existing controls on EU migrants
B - open the floodgates for non-EU immigration



There are a lot of people in the UK going "just get on with it" and will accept some king of Brexit
Do they not realise that leaving the EU means years of deals 40+ deals with 70 countries each of which could take as long as Brext + Withdrawal Agreement + any extensions down the road.

CelticRambler

SNIP. No more snide comments please.

downcow wrote: »

I am a democrat
I didn’t vote
I don’t believe in referendums

That's a funny kind of democracy ...

downcow wrote: »

I was neutral
Still neatral in that I don’t think economically in or out is going to make much difference

Despite all the evidence to the contrary? Your beloved UK is already suffering economically, lagging behind the rest of the EU. How is Brexit going to reverse that? :rolleyes:

PS: still waiting for you to tell us what Britain has to offer the EU that'd make it worth our while negotiating a quick deal after a chaotic Brexit.

FreudianSlippers

Enzokk wrote: »

Edit: Anyone else seeing posts that disappear after a few minutes?

Yeah... some kind of database error that was supposedly fixed, but isn't

road_high

Silent Running wrote: »

Well, not this Irishman. The UK will have to make trade agreements wherever it can and I'm sure there will eventually be a trade agreement between the UK and the EU. But these things take years to negotiate... years where the UK has no agreements with anyone.

I'm not sure a pampered people like the English will be too happy after a few months of the pain of Brexit. What then?

That’s what I’m saying- these idiots badly need reality therapy- there’s a belief that nothing much will change post brexit and even that they’ll be “freer”.

Akrasia

downcow wrote: »

Help me with this. I am genuinely confused. You keep saying there will be no more negotiating.
If we leave with no deal because we can’t accept the backstop being potentially permanent, are you seriously saying there will be no further negotiations?
Can you simply not stomache the reality that there will be an ever growing plethora of mutually beneficial agreements develop?
This is the ludicrous belief that many are stating here almost as a threat to the UK.

There are no more negotiations as long as Theresa May and the DUP still maintain their red lines. There is no sign of them changing so the negotiations are over

Inquitus

Akrasia wrote: »

There are no more negotiations as long as Theresa May and the DUP still maintain their red lines. There is no sign of them changing so the negotiations are over

Either may forces through "The Deal" or anything could happen.

FreudianSlippers

Bit cynical wrote: »

I don't think we have. The UK only agrees to something concerning the WA when the parliament has agreed to it since the UK Notification of Withdrawal Act of 2017:

The Prime Minister may not conclude an agreement with the European Union under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union, on the terms of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union, without the approval of both Houses of Parliament.

Well, that's very lucky that she has to conclude the deal with the European Council then!

Enzokk

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

On BBC news they keep repeating that UK might have to extend Brexit by few weeks in order to pass legislation

The question is why would the EU agree? I suppose it gives Ireland extra time to prepare as then its certain that Brexit wont be cancelled

Well it was mentioned on the last Remainiacs podcast, episode last week, that if her deal passes then they have to convert it into an act and all the votes that would entail. The guest, David Allen Green, was mentioning that even if they passed her deal now there still may not be enough time to have it pass all the stages it needed to to become legislation.

Hence the ridiculous notion that the EU would still be negotiating when there is no time left should be questioned more to those MPs that keep spouting the line.

Tell me how

I have long said that I have been impressed with the consistent performance of our key players on Brexit. Chiefly Simon Coveney but also Leo Varadkar, (with this week showing just how much of a knife edge it is to say anything), (Micheal Martin deserves a mention also for not trying to initiate a GE). They all have performed in a manner which I think is in the countries best interests (in terms of Brexit) and which shows their ability to maintain a professional manner and not allow themselves to resort to the blather which we are seeing across the water.

The latest example of this was Helen McEntee on BBC Radio 4 this morning. She was being interviewed by John Humphrys. There were several points in the interview which it would have been easy to get emotive and to respond to his points (position) (08:58 for the pinnacle of this)with outright derision but Helen consistently remained balanced and responded in a level but forthright manner. Such interviews I think involve the interviewer trying to provoke a comment which will be used to project a weakness in the Irish or EU position and thankfully this is one more where they have failed to get what they wanted.

Let's hope no one from the BBC puts a microphone in front of a Healy-Rae and asks them what do the Irish really think of the English.

Dyr

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

To whit, the story is fully fleshed out by Slugger O'Toole (sparing me from having to link to the Sun):

https://sluggerotoole.com/2019/01/25/the-dup-seem-poised-to-bail-out-theresa-may-will-the-eu-be-impressed/

You should be apologizing for linking to sluggerotoole more so than The Sun

johnnyskeleton

trellheim wrote: »

You are doing everything possible to troll this forum.

Mod note:

If you have a problem with another poster, use the report post function

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

If people really want to debate the name of the State, open a new thread if there is enough substantive material to do so.

The topic of this thread is Brexit

FreudianSlippers

I fail to see how this thread is about anything other than the relevance of Ireland in the context of Brexit, but if the "Republic of Ireland" wishes to continue to be a State without a hard border on this island then I guess we should capitulate to our British masters.

Seth Brundle

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

aside2: Will Irish whiskey makers take advantage of UK leaving and start making Scotch as well (as there is nothing UK can do now that the product is not protected)

Sales of Irish whiskey abroad are great. So much so that we don't need to make and export an inferior product!

downcow

CelticRambler wrote: »

SNIP. No more snide comments please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by downcow View Post
I am a democrat
I didn’t vote
I don’t believe in referendums

That's a funny kind of democracy ...
t.

It is quite logical
I am a democrat (i feel it necessary to specify that, as many on here seem to be happy to disregard democracy)
I didn't vote - Just emphasising that I was fairly neutral on the issue and was over in France enjoying the Euro champs (the irony :-)
I don't believe in referendums - i thought by this stage you would have got this one. We elect politicians to spend their time digesting the facts on issues like brexit at a much deeper level than we have time to and then we expect them to make the decisions and not pass the ones they don't have the balls to make back to the public to have a stab at

Enzokk

downcow wrote: »

It is quite logical
I am a democrat (i feel it necessary to specify that, as many on here seem to be happy to disregard democracy)
I didn't vote - Just emphasising that I was fairly neutral on the issue and was over in France enjoying the Euro champs (the irony :-)
I don't believe in referendums - i thought by this stage you would have got this one. We elect politicians to spend their time digesting the facts on issues like brexit at a much deeper level than we have time to and then we expect them to make the decisions and not pass the ones they don't have the balls to make back to the public to have a stab at

I have a question, how would you have voted if you were able to?

Calina

downcow wrote: »

It is quite logical
I am a democrat (i feel it necessary to specify that, as many on here seem to be happy to disregard democracy)
I didn't vote - Just emphasising that I was fairly neutral on the issue and was over in France enjoying the Euro champs (the irony :-)
I don't believe in referendums - i thought by this stage you would have got this one. We elect politicians to spend their time digesting the facts on issues like brexit at a much deeper level than we have time to and then we expect them to make the decisions and not pass the ones they don't have the balls to make back to the public to have a stab at

Someone who does not believe in one would not normally support the implementation of the result of one.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

It is quite logical
I am a democrat (i feel it necessary to specify that, as many on here seem to be happy to disregard democracy)
I didn't vote - Just emphasising that I was fairly neutral on the issue and was over in France enjoying the Euro champs (the irony :-)
I don't believe in referendums - i thought by this stage you would have got this one. We elect politicians to spend their time digesting the facts on issues like brexit at a much deeper level than we have time to and then we expect them to make the decisions and not pass the ones they don't have the balls to make back to the public to have a stab at

Ha ha...two years in and we are stilling waiting for these politicians to back up their bluster and leave. But they are too afraid to without a sweetheart deal were they get all the benefits to the disadvantage of everyone else.

downcow

Enzokk wrote: »

I have a question, how would you have voted if you were able to?

I honestly would have struggled with it. I was naturally prob very slightly remain but had huge issues with how Europe is run. But the intervention of Obama and the likes, combined with our government spending millions on a propaganda leaflet telling us to vote remain would have probably been enough to push me to vote for Brexit. I know i had a smile to myself when i heard the vote coming through in France - I felt thats one up for the ordinary man

downcow

Calina wrote: »

Someone who does not believe in one would not normally support the implementation of the result of one.

the clue is in 'i am a democrat'
I don't think referendums are a good idea but our elected reps decided to do it and promised us it was a once in a generation vote, and that leave meant leave.
So thats democracy.
A dictatorship with a good dictator would be my preferred method lol

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

I honestly would have struggled with it. I was naturally prob very slightly remain but had huge issues with how Europe is run. But the intervention of Obama and the likes, combined with our government spending millions on a propaganda leaflet telling us to vote remain would have probably been enough to push me to vote for Brexit. I know i had a smile to myself when i heard the vote coming through in France - I felt thats one up for the ordinary man

How is 'Europe' run? And what were your particular issues?

Does the still unaccounted for millions spent by the leave campaign bother you at all?

listermint

downcow wrote: »

I honestly would have struggled with it. I was naturally prob very slightly remain but had huge issues with how Europe is run. But the intervention of Obama and the likes, combined with our government spending millions on a propaganda leaflet telling us to vote remain would have probably been enough to push me to vote for Brexit. I know i had a smile to myself when i heard the vote coming through in France - I felt thats one up for the ordinary man

Obama ,??


This stuff is hilarious. I'm finding myself highly amused. What about Obama saying the UK should be sensible and stay in an economic union tickled your fancy. Or what about Obama irks you

You claim to be a democrat