Brexit Discussion Thread VI

awec · 17-12-2018 11:03pm

Thargor wrote: »

This post makes no sense?

Please outline the steps that Action-Corbyn could have taken to prevent the current mess?

Nothing, which is part of the problem.

Corbyn and his party are an irrelevance. They are not strong enough to provide any meaningful opposition. Even this no confidence was a wishy washy half-arsed attempt.

Professor Moriarty · 17-12-2018 11:04pm

Thargor wrote: »

This post makes no sense?

Please outline the steps that Action-Corbyn could have taken to prevent the current mess?

He could have campaigned for Remain in a meaningful way instead of wandering around like a lost sheep.

Tell me how · 17-12-2018 11:05pm

Thargor wrote: »

This post makes no sense?

Please outline the steps that Action-Corbyn could have taken to prevent the current mess?

Are you for real?

awec · 17-12-2018 11:07pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

He could have campaigned for Remain in a meaningful way instead of wandering around like a lost sheep.

Can't, he is reliant on the far left types in Labour to hold him in his position, and the far left are pro-Brexit.

briany · 17-12-2018 11:07pm

fash wrote: »

A crisis is a wonderful opportunity that one should not waste- just ask Erdogan. The Tories will blame those evil Europeans while they dismantle the state and state protections, the far left wing of labour think they can get in and implement a socialist utopia while blaming the Tories. Mogg just wants a catastrophe to make money on the carcass. The crisis is felt by other people, not the people controlling it. Aside from those actually willing it or who don't care about it, others are paralyzed by dysfunction- pulling in different directions.

See, if I were Mogg and I were really just using Brexit as an opportunity to be a disaster capitalist in my own country, I'd be concerned that, if things went badly enough (for ordinary people, that is), and my true ambitions were exposed, I'd be dragged out of my house by an angry mob and hung from the nearest lamp post.

Are we saying that Mogg, Farage and co. have absolutely no regard for the welfare of their country & countrymen and would happily see it devolve into the poorest country in western Europe just so they could add more onto what already is a considerable personal fortune for both of them? It doesn't just seem risky and reckless, but positively nihilistic.

Professor Moriarty · 17-12-2018 11:11pm

awec wrote: »

Can't, he is reliant on the far left types in Labour to hold him in his position, and the far left are pro-Brexit.

I don't think so, Momentum, which put him in power, is pro Remain.

Grab All Association · 17-12-2018 11:12pm

https://l-bc.co/2Bpw9tr

“I voted leave to retain the three-pin plug”

Facepalm

Thargor · 17-12-2018 11:16pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Are you for real?

Yes?

The post names 20 years worth of Tory lies in Nigel Farage, David Cameron, Theresa May, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg, David Davis and others then tacks on Jeremy Corbon at the end like he could have prevented the whole thing and claims Corbyn shares 50% of the blame, would a Corbyn government have held a referendum as dangerous as Brexit with zero preparation for a no vote?

Again feel free to outline what steps Jeremy Corbyn or any Labour politician could have taken to prevent the current situation, seeing as they're apparently 50% to blame for Boris Johnsons and Nigel Farages conversion of the UK media into an anti-EU propoganda machine, Camerons 100% self-serving and completely reckless referendum and Mays behaviour ever since, if he takes 50% of the blame you must be able to name a few major actions by him?

ilovesmybrick · 17-12-2018 11:16pm

awec wrote:

Can't, he is reliant on the far left types in Labour to hold him in his position, and the far left are pro-Brexit.

I would consider myself more left than right, but it was that attitude in the Tories with UKIP and the ERG that led to this mess in the first place. You would have hoped that Labour as the opposition would have realised well before now that the path that can lead to is disastrous. I've given up waiting for an adult to step into the room in British politics and really explain to the moderates, on both sides, that they need to pull together in the interests of the UK as a whole and act responsibly.

awec · 17-12-2018 11:20pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I don't think so, Momentum, which put him in power, is pro Remain.

Sorry, you are correct of course. My bad!

ilovesmybrick · 17-12-2018 11:23pm

awec wrote:

Sorry, you are correct of course. My bad!

In fairness it can be hard to keep track of the vacilations in these times. The same people who last week voted no confidence in May are today saying they will support her in a no confidence motion!

Water John · 17-12-2018 11:25pm

That's the point Ciarraioch, the amendment should force this motion to a debate and vote, thus taking it off the table. 2nd Ref as per Lb Party Conference motion then comes centre stage.

devnull · 17-12-2018 11:25pm

bilston wrote: »

It's starting to get quite posionous. The politicians are at each others throats. Social media is just full of insults from both sides (well the insults tend to mainly come from one side).

It's nasty stuff...and I can only see it getting worse at the moment.

Just seen this from the Political Ed of Sky News saying that both he and Kay Burley were the victim of xenophobia earlier today following the incident
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1074688060418334722
Pretty disgusting isn't it, I knew the level of debate was getting quite serious and starting to get even more over the edge than it was before, but you'd have to worry that if there was to be a second referendum, it could turn very nasty.

seamus · 17-12-2018 11:32pm

briany wrote: »

It doesn't just seem risky and reckless, but positively nihilistic.

Welcome to libertarianism.

Rees-Mogg and the rest have been quietly making alternative living arrangements.

Unfortunately he has his sights set on Ireland, having set up a large personal investment fund here. Farages children have German passports, and being a man of means he should have no issue in getting a visa to join them.

These are contingency plans of course. You won't see them on Brexit day at the airport with a suitcase with Euros sticking out of it.

EdgeCase · 17-12-2018 11:36pm

Grab All Association wrote: »

https://l-bc.co/2Bpw9tr

“I voted leave to retain the three-pin plug”

Facepalm

That's the problem though when you challenge most of them they can't give you any kind of cohesive argument for Brexit. It was all about an emotional response and then sticking to nonsense stories about bananas and plugs.

briany · 17-12-2018 11:36pm

To be fair, the kind of headers who'd shout stuff like that at Faisal Islam have always been around. It seems to have been a problem ever since Britain underwent its first waves of immigration in the 60s where you had Enoch Powell saying what he said, through to the National Front and the BNP. They're a poisonous element for sure, but I don't know if they epitomise the level that discourse has sunk to, but they are vocal and have become increasingly emboldened it would seem.

briany · 17-12-2018 11:39pm

seamus wrote: »

Welcome to libertarianism.

I thought Libertarianism was, "I do what I want, and you do what you want, and as long as we aren't harming one another, that's grand."?

If Mogg is doing what he wants to the extent that some suspect, it would cause quite a lot of harm indeed!

Folkstonian · 17-12-2018 11:40pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I don't think so, Momentum, which put him in power, is pro Remain.

They are, but getting Jeremy Corbyn into Downing Street is far, far more important to them than staying in the European Union.

They are a cult.

Inquitus · 17-12-2018 11:43pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

They are, but getting Jeremy Corbyn into Downing Street is far, far more important to them than staying in the European Union.

They are a cult.

I disagree, I think they are at least 50/50 on Corbyn v Remain, if not more so at this point, they can see the damage Brexit will do, and under labour leadership election rules they can keep Corbyn or find a new Corbyn and win regardless.

lawred2 · 17-12-2018 11:44pm

Some lad on news night claiming that staffing the NHS with emigrants will be in the gift of the government after Brexit.

You know.. just exactly like it is now and has been for the last 50 years.

Anthracite · 17-12-2018 11:51pm

bilston wrote: »

Waste of time doing it now.

The ERG and DUP have supposedly indicated they will vote against Corbyn's vote of no confidence in the PM, so it is safe to assume they will definitely go against a No Confidence vote in the government.

And the hard Brexiteers? Can we bank on them all voting the 'right' way?

Tell me how · 17-12-2018 11:52pm

Thargor wrote: »

Yes?

The post names 20 years worth of Tory lies in Nigel Farage, David Cameron, Theresa May, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg, David Davis and others then tacks on Jeremy Corbon at the end like he could have prevented the whole thing and claims Corbyn shares 50% of the blame, would a Corbyn government have held a referendum as dangerous as Brexit with zero preparation for a no vote?

Again feel free to outline what steps Jeremy Corbyn or any Labour politician could have taken to prevent the current situation, seeing as they're apparently 50% to blame for Boris Johnsons and Nigel Farages conversion of the UK media into an anti-EU propoganda machine, Camerons 100% self-serving and completely reckless referendum and Mays behaviour ever since, if he takes 50% of the blame you must be able to name a few major actions by him?

Corbyn did not pro-actively support the Remain Campaign.
He refused to share a platform with David Cameron See here.
He said that he was only 7 out of 10 in favour of remaining. See here.
He allowed the party to be distracted by infighting this summer instead of focusing on providing meaningful opposition to what the Tories were up to.
He ignored the positive response which Keir Starmer received at the Labour conference when saying that they would advocate for a 2nd referendum with the option to remain.
He has publicly stated that even though the polls are indicating there is a desire to remain that Labour will not pursue this and that Brexit has to happen.
He has allowed his party to publish 6 Tests for Brexit which are meaningless and vacuous.
He has not led with robust opposition to Theresa May. His primary role.
He is directing his MP's to peddle the nonsense that there is time for a General Election, the formation of a government and a renegotiation of a deal with Europe within 100 days of the 29th of March.
He had no confidence in tabling a motion of no confidence
Even with the clusterf*ck that the conservatives are, they are still leading Labour in the polls as of this weekend

Are they enough actions for you?

I never said he had to shoulder 50% of the blame, you said that. I said that he was as responsible as the others I listed. Maybe give them 14.28% apiece if you wish to put numbers to it.

Dyr · 17-12-2018 11:56pm

Tell me how wrote: »

He allowed the party to be distracted by infighting this summer instead of focusing on providing meaningful opposition to what the Tories were up to.
.

You mean he allowed his party to be distracted by the repeated attempts to stage a heave against him? Funny way to put it.

Tell me how · 18-12-2018 12:03am

Bambi wrote: »

You mean he allowed his party to be distracted by the repeated attempts to stage a heave against him? Funny way to put it.

Yeah, he had nothing to do with that and his hesitancy to accept the IHRA's definition of anti-semitism.

Whatever you make of that, it distracted the party heavily on Brexit.

Professor Moriarty · 18-12-2018 12:33am

Folkstonian wrote: »

They are, but getting Jeremy Corbyn into Downing Street is far, far more important to them than staying in the European Union.

They are a cult.

Naturally, they want to see him as PM but Momentum actively campaigned for Remain and its members overwhelmingly back a second referendum. It's a cult but no more a cult than the ERG and its supporters are.

Thargor · 18-12-2018 12:43am

Tell me how wrote: »

Corbyn did not pro-actively support the Remain Campaign.

He refused to share a platform with David Cameron See here.

He said that he was only 7 out of 10 in favour of remaining. See here.

He allowed the party to be distracted by infighting this summer instead of focusing on providing meaningful opposition to what the Tories were up to.

He ignored the positive response which Keir Starmer received at the Labour conference when saying that they would advocate for a 2nd referendum with the option to remain.

He has publicly stated that even though the polls are indicating there is a desire to remain that Labour will not pursue this and that Brexit has to happen.

He has allowed his party to publish 6 Tests for Brexit which are meaningless and vacuous.

He has not led with robust opposition to Theresa May. His primary role.

He is directing his MP's to peddle the nonsense that there is time for a General Election, the formation of a government and a renegotiation of a deal with Europe within 100 days of the 29th of March.

He had no confidence in tabling a motion of no confidence

Even with the clusterf*ck that the conservatives are, they are still leading Labour in the polls as of this weekend

Are they enough actions for you?

I never said he had to shoulder 50% of the blame, you said that. I said that he was as responsible as the others I listed. Maybe give them 14.28% apiece if you wish to put numbers to it.

But thats all after the fact or else meaningless nonsense (refused to share platform with Cameron ffs?), how is he responsible for Brexit? Brexit is 100% a Tory/Right wing creation, you sound like the but-but-but Hilarys emails clowns in the Donald Trump thread.

Tell me how · 18-12-2018 12:53am

Thargor wrote: »

But thats all after the fact or else meaningless nonsense (refused to share platform with Cameron ffs?), how is he responsible for Brexit? Brexit is 100% a Tory/Right wing creation, you sound like the but-but-but Hilarys emails clowns in the Donald Trump thread.

Thargor, nice pirouetting.

The post of yours which I responded to stated "since the day of the referendum".

I said that he is partly responsible for the mess this has turned out to be.
You are interpreting that as me saying he is responsible for Brexit. I didn't say that.

I get it, you're a fan. Fine so be it. I hope you got the reduced price membership rate.

Thargor · 18-12-2018 1:04am

Tell me how wrote: »

Thargor, nice pirouetting.

The post of yours which I responded to stated "since the day of the referendum".

I said that he is partly responsible for the mess this has turned out to be.
You are interpreting that as me saying he is responsible for Brexit. I didn't say that.

I get it, you're a fan. Fine so be it. I hope you got the reduced price membership rate.

"Pirouetting" lol, you're the one misquoting in order to set up your little strawman. What I actually said was since the day the referendum was called, as in by a Tory prime minister, in order to prop up their poll numbers not for any public service reasons, something a Labour minister would never have done in a million years, which kind of negates what you said about Corbyn being equally to blame as Farage, Cameron, Johnson etc.

Not sure what the gibberish about being a Corbyn fan or getting a reduced party membership is about, Im an Irish citizen like 99% of the people on here, keep flailing I suppose.