Brexit Discussion Thread VI

prawnsambo

eagle eye wrote: »

I posted earlier that I can't find stats. Obviously our government don't want to furnish us with those details.
I'm not saying they are all criminals just that imo we've a higher percentage of non-national criminals than shoukd be the case. I'd bet that there is a much higher percentage of them committing crime in this country than there is in their own country.

So you're basing this on feelings, opinions and beliefs. And the absence of evidence is evidence of a cover up. Got it.

RobMc59

Strazdas wrote: »

The UK is still not a single 'country' though (just as Belgium isn't). The referendum is effectively saying there is no difference between Scotland and Northern Ireland and Lancashire and Berkshire, they have the exact same status (which they don't in truth).

Well actually in the eyes of the EU and UK all countries within the UK have the exact same status.

bob mcbob

Folkstonian wrote: »

It makes a nice change for the Scottish to hate someone else as opposed to each other once in a while, I guess. And I’d probably go to war with the world if I was welsh too.

But in all seriousness, I don’t think you can draw many conclusions about wider political trends from the potato-brained louts at an international football match that will yell anything if it may get a rise from the opposition fans.

In saying that however, I do think an independent England would be a good thing. Scottish politics have diverged wildly over the last few years. The SNP government north of the wall are every bit as inept, and even more extreme than their counterparts in London.

Ok now I am intrigued please supply examples.

Anthracite

RobMc59 wrote: »

Well actually in the eyes of the EU and UK all countries within the UK have the exact same status.

True, but that means they are all subservient to England, as seen in recent events.

If you are interested in how well the UK system works, compare the trajectory of the NI economy with the ROI economy since independence.

RobMc59

Anthracite wrote: »

True, but that means they are all subservient to England, as seen in recent events.

If you are interested in how well the UK system works, compare the trajectory of the NI economy with the ROI economy since independence.

I don't think the rest of the UK is subservient to England(if you said that in Scotland you'd be a very brave person!)but I do think this whole brexit disaster has exposed some serious flaws in the UK political system.

eagle eye

prawnsambo wrote:

So you're basing this on feelings, opinions and beliefs. And the absence of evidence is evidence of a cover up. Got it.

Anthracite wrote:

So you have no evidence to suggest immigrants are more likely to be criminals, but you are saying it anyway?

Well it's a bit more than just pulling it out of things air but I've nothing more to add.
Surely if you are so upset by what I'm saying you have figures to prove I'm wrong?

prawnsambo

eagle eye wrote: »

Well it's a bit more than just pulling it out of things air but I've nothing more to add.
Surely if you are so upset by what I'm saying you have figures to prove I'm wrong?

Ah, so poster makes statement. Has no facts. Can't back it up. But people who ask for said facts now have to prove him wrong. I don't think so. I think we'll call your assertion what it is.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don't think the rest of the UK is subservient to England(if you said that in Scotland you'd be a very brave person!)but I do think this whole brexit disaster has exposed some serious flaws in the UK political system.

A very small majority in Scotland thought that, but they were soon disabused of the notion after the Indy Ref. when England essentially took them out of the EU

ancapailldorcha

eagle eye wrote: »

Well it's a bit more than just pulling it out of things air but I've nothing more to add.
Surely if you are so upset by what I'm saying you have figures to prove I'm wrong?

Asking other people to back up your claims for you isn't acceptable here. Either stop making the claim or substantiate it and cut out the soapboxing.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

The UK was a patchwork of in and out.

2 countries voted in & 2 countries voted out

There were regions voted in and there were regions voted out

And even in NI there constituencies voted in and there were constituencies voted out

Wales and Scotland have both recently voted to be part of the UK and NI isn’t even close enough to consider haveing a referendum to opt out.

How could it be more democratic and how luderous would it be to start saying County Antrim stays and County Fermanagh goes

You do know that that's exactly how Northern Ireland came into existence, don't you? Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal went; Derry, Down, Antrim, Armagh, Fermanagh and Tryone stayed. :cool:

But everything else in your post - the "patchwork" of in and out, the widespread mix of "voted in, voted out" throughout the Kingdom, the insignificant majority across the whole of the electorate - that's the very reason why such a momentous decision as this should, at the very least, be confirmed by a second vote once the full terms and conditions are known.

If you bought Brexit in a shop, EU consumer law would guarantee you a full refund if you found the product you'd purchased didn't match the description on the box.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Asking other people to back up your claims for you isn't acceptable here. Either stop making the claim or substantiate it and cut out the soapboxing.

Posts deleted. Let's leave it at that please.

downcow

Anthracite wrote: »

If you are interested in how well the UK system works, compare the trajectory of the NI economy with the ROI economy since independence.

I can’t believe you are suggesting what I think you are suggesting.
My father family of 11 all left roi to get jobs in the north. As I grew up the south was a standing joke (and I am not say that was a nice way to behave but it is fact) around their roads, telephones, their electric, etc, etc. Currently I work for an all ireland organisation and colleagues from the south often express open envy at many of our systems eg access to free doctors, prescriptions, etc.

I commend the south for the progress on equality and separating church from state etc over the last decade. Indeed you have caught up from a long way behind and overtook us on these

A Dub in Glasgo

downcow wrote: »

Scotland have both recently voted to be part of the UK

Ahem

https://twitter.com/uk_together/status/506899714923843584?lang=en

A Dub in Glasgo

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don't think the rest of the UK is subservient to England.

The UK works exactly like this

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Posts deleted. Let's leave it at that please.

Another post deleted and infraction issued. No more please.

Water John

Boris is now saying May is going to go back to Brussels and demand a change to the Backstop.

VinLieger

downcow wrote: »

Currently I work for an all ireland organisation and colleagues from the south often express open envy at many of our systems eg access to free doctors, prescriptions, etc.

LoL the irish healthcare system may not be first in the world but the NHS isnt that far ahead of it with its record levels of staffing shortages to name but one major issue facing it.

Also you do understand that in a no deal or in fact any full brexit scenario the american pharmaceutical and insurance companise are going to tear the NHS up like vultures fighting over a fresh corpse thanks to whatever trade deal the UK has rammed down its throat

Harry Palmr

Just a note for BBC Two 9 PM tomorrow night - Inside Europe 10 Years of Turmoil a three part series looking at how the UK got to this point. Should make compelling viewing.

10000maniacs

I listened to the John Humphrys show on Radio 4 this morning and I found his level and quality of questioning of Helen McEntee very poor and biased.
Firstly Humphrys suggested that 50% of the ROI's trade (he refers to the ROI as Dublin) is with the UK, and that because of this statistic Ireland should exit the EU as well.
I am glad Helen McEntee was up to speed on this statistic and countered that we only do 13-14% trade with the UK, not 50%.
And that 92% of Irish people want to remain. Good on you Helen.

Lemming

VinLieger wrote: »

LoL the irish healthcare system may not be first in the world but the NHS isnt that far ahead of it with its record levels of staffing shortages to name but one major issue facing it.

The one thing the UK has - generally speaking - done well since WW2 is its free healthcare system. Yes, it has problems but it is quite frankly leaps & bounds above the Irish healthcare system, particularly when it comes to front-line services. A&E waiting times can still be a pain in the @rse, but the follow-through on front-line services & after-care is very good, although just how far that goes depends a bit on location-lottery much like anywhere else in the world. In the community, the costs borne by joe-soap if they visit their GP or Dentist are tiny by comparison to what one might get charged in Ireland. No eye-watering dental charges just to say "ahhhhhh" never mind get a filling or what-not, and that health insurance is very common in Ireland, yet is not common UK should tell you something.

Having dealt with elements of the HSE in a professional capacity, and on top of both my own experiences and those of family members of both community & A&E in Dublin, I'll take the NHS over the HSE all any day. So, whatever else you might want to say about Brexit, your dismissive line of "lol" regards the NHS is a hiding to nowhere and contributes nothing. There are better things to contruct an argument with; the NHS vs. the HSE is not one of them and will be a very large thorn in the side of squaring Irish unification should Northern Ireland ever vote to join with rest of the country.

Anthracite

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don't think the rest of the UK is subservient to England(if you said that in Scotland you'd be a very brave person!)but I do think this whole brexit disaster has exposed some serious flaws in the UK political system.

The ROI is not subservient to England, because we are independent and have sovereignty. A Scottish person might be annoyed to have the fact that they are subservient to England pointed out, but it is a fact nonetheless.

Anthracite

downcow wrote: »

I can’t believe you are suggesting what I think you are suggesting.
My father family of 11 all left roi to get jobs in the north. As I grew up the south was a standing joke (and I am not say that was a nice way to behave but it is fact) around their roads, telephones, their electric, etc, etc. Currently I work for an all ireland organisation and colleagues from the south often express open envy at many of our systems eg access to free doctors, prescriptions, etc.

I commend the south for the progress on equality and separating church from state etc over the last decade. Indeed you have caught up from a long way behind and overtook us on these

And there is the fact that NI is an economic basket case and ROI is at full employment, and Dublin is a major international tech hub.

You can celebrate your free GP for sure, but don't pretend the money paying for it comes from NI.

LeinsterDub

Remember the MP who wanted the Polish government to to intervene well I'm beginning to think that he's not the sharpest tool in the shed

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1088058967572520961

Havockk

Lemming wrote: »

The one thing the UK has - generally speaking - done well since WW2 is its free healthcare system. Yes, it has problems but it is quite frankly leaps & bounds above the Irish healthcare system, particularly when it comes to front-line services. A&E waiting times can still be a pain in the @rse, but the follow-through on front-line services & after-care is very good, although just how far that goes depends a bit on location-lottery much like anywhere else in the world. In the community, the costs borne by joe-soap if they visit their GP or Dentist are tiny by comparison to what one might get charged in Ireland. No eye-watering dental charges just to say "ahhhhhh" never mind get a filling or what-not, and that health insurance is very common in Ireland, yet is not common UK should tell you something.

Having dealt with elements of the HSE in a professional capacity, and on top of both my own experiences and those of family members of both community & A&E in Dublin, I'll take the NHS over the HSE all any day. So, whatever else you might want to say about Brexit, your dismissive line of "lol" regards the NHS is a hiding to nowhere and contributes nothing. There are better things to contruct an argument with; the NHS vs. the HSE is not one of them and will be a very large thorn in the side of squaring Irish unification should Northern Ireland ever vote to join with rest of the country.

The NHS will be privatised faster than a... fast thing post brexit. Never going to survive disaster cap or the whim of US trade policy.

Lemming

Havockk wrote: »

The NHS will be privatised faster than a... fast thing post brexit. Never going to survive disaster cap or the whim of US trade policy.

I wasn't commenting on that; the post I replied to was not about privatisation.

It remains to be seen, as much as certain elements of the Tories might like to fantasise about. Unless you've lived in the UK at all, or spent considerable time here at any rate, it's hard to convey just how well regarded (perhaps not the correct word to use but hey-ho) the NHS is as a national entity in the UK, and any time there's any mention of politicians trying to wield a knife to it, they frequently back down in the face of media outcries. That's not to say that in that given half a chance with everyone looking the other way that the Tories wouldn't sell the NHS along with the family jewels.

Havockk

Lemming wrote: »

I didn't comment on that.

It remains to be seen, as much as certain elements of the Tories might like to fantasise about. Unless you've lived in the UK at all, or spent considerable time here at any rate, it's hard to convey just how well regarded (perhaps not the correct word to use but hey-ho) the NHS is as a national entity in the UK, and any time there's any mention of politicians trying to wield a knife to it, they frequently back down in the face of media outcries. That's not to say that in that given half a chance with everyone looking the other way that the Tories wouldn't sell the NHS along with the family jewels.

Listen. I'm from the North, I totally agree with you, I have the utmost respect for the NHS and indeed its creator Nye Bevan. However the NHS has been under tremendous stress in recent years. Harsh cuts and closures. I would go as far as to say that a new Ireland should facilitate a new free at point of service NHS like system. And it's no secret that the Tories have been trying to kill it since Thatcher.

MPFGLB

Havockk wrote: »

The NHS will be privatised faster than a... fast thing post brexit. Never going to survive disaster cap or the whim of US trade policy.

Emmm No its not going to be privatised ...no politician in the UK who tries ever gets far and no government will dare..privatisation is trotted out again and again by those who want to make political gain

Of course Blair privatised delivery of some services but its tiny amounts and that is just some outpatients/community services offered by private firms like Virgin but its not privatisation of the service which still remains free at the point of access and many people dont seem to understand the difference . The NHS is about a million miles ahead of the Irish system and many other healthcare systems... for all its faults ..Its one of the main reasons why I wont retire to Ireland though Ireland has a better state pension

ancapailldorcha

MPFGLB wrote: »

Emmm No its not going to be privatised ...no politician in the UK who tries ever gets far and no government will dare..privatisation is trotted out again and again by those who want to make political gain

Of course Blair privatised delivery of some services but its tiny amounts and that is just some outpatients/community services offered by private firms like Virgin but its not privatisation of the service which still remains free at the point of access and many people dont seem to understand the difference . The NHS is about a million miles ahead of the Irish system and many other healthcare systems... for all its faults ..Its one of the main reasons why I wont retire to Ireland though Ireland has a better state pension

I'm not seeing it to be honest. I've found GPs here to be a ridiculously mixed bag. Never mind A&E waiting times.

Obviously anecdotal but the NHS stopped being the envy of the world some time ago. Nobody is going to be stupid enough to say it should be privatised. Instead, they'll just outsource more and more of it to the private sector.

The NHS needs to be overhauled to meet the needs of an ageing society. Telling a quarter of its staff they're not welcome in the country is a poor start.

MPFGLB

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not seeing it to be honest. I've found GPs here to be a ridiculously mixed bag. Never mind A&E waiting times.

Obviously anecdotal but the NHS stopped being the envy of the world some time ago. Nobody is going to be stupid enough to say it should be privatised. Instead, they'll just outsource more and more of it to the private sector.

The NHS needs to be overhauled to meet the needs of an ageing society. Telling a quarter of its staff they're not welcome in the country is a poor start.

Can you explain where here is ?Do you live in the UK

BTW the only real privatisation of a few services was done by the Blair Government ..not the Tories

Also Ireland may want a NHS but it would need to up the funding and get the doctors on side ...As I recall there was alot of opposition to under 6 year olds getting free care from the medical profession...not sure what happened to that as I stopped following it

MPFGLB

BTW all healthcare systems need to be adjusted for aging populations and long term conditions...not just NHS ..all healthcare will be more expensive ...but that doesnt take away from the system being among the best

As for GPs ...mixed bags exist everywhere but at least in UK they are accountable.In Irealnd I have seen so many dreadful GPs who are not accountable to anyone
NHS waiting times have fallen fro95% to about 70% within 4 hours....compare to 2 days at Limerick RH

As I said it is miles ahead ...and I have worked in both Ireland and UK health services