Brexit Discussion Thread VI

VinLieger

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Citizens assembly is a joke, used here by Enda Kenny to avoid having to come up with his own policy on abortion.

A CA in the UK will have the same (valid) criticism that was leveled at the one here: it will be stuffed with people who do not form a representative sample, only the politically interested and those with the time and money to participate. An assembly already exists for the purpose of legislating, the HoC.

You've contradicted yourself in one post their buddy.


Saying its not fair as only the politically interested would be involved but then claiming the HOC is already a fair representation yet the majority of those who vote for it would also only be the politically interested.


Also if people aren't interested in having a say isn't it their fault if something happens they didn't like yet never spoke up?

Zubeneschamali

20silkcut wrote: »

Would that not make leaving look like a good idea?

The lines for bread, petrol and insulin will make leaving look bad enough without us adding extra punishment.

lawred2

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Citizens assembly is a joke, used here by Enda Kenny to avoid having to come up with his own policy on abortion.

A CA in the UK will have the same (valid) criticism that was leveled at the one here: it will be stuffed with people who do not form a representative sample, only the politically interested and those with the time and money to participate. An assembly already exists for the purpose of legislating, the HoC.

It's for another thread really but you must be in the extreme minority of critics for the citizen's assembly. In my eyes it was an extraordinary success and the greatest vehicle for real and meaningful change in quite a while in Ireland.

Leroy42

VinLieger wrote: »

I will never understand why she rushed on A50

Simply because she was trying to prove how decisive and stable she was. She believed the media hype that she was Thatcher Mk2, going to go to Europe to sort out those pesky continentals.

It was a massive misjudgement, she effectively gave up her power when she agreed to wishes of Davis etc to start the process without doing any planning.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Citizens assembly is a joke, used here by Enda Kenny to avoid having to come up with his own policy on abortion.

A CA in the UK will have the same (valid) criticism that was leveled at the one here: it will be stuffed with people who do not form a representative sample, only the politically interested and those with the time and money to participate. An assembly already exists for the purpose of legislating, the HoC.

In a democracy surely listening to the people is a good thing, or do you think Kenny (or any leader) simply knows what the public wants?

Whilst you may disagree with the exact make up of a CA, I think they have worked quite well in Ireland. Far from perfect but much better than simply letting the cabinet make decisions based on nothing more than their own opinions.

A CA would have been a great idea for the UK. Bring in people from all over the UK to discuss the real impacts of Brexit, the issues, the pros and cons. At least then the report forms a basis for a debate where the issues raised can be discussed across the wider country.

Brexit completely failed to deal with any of the real issues

Hurrache

That Claire Byrne clip of her interview with Farage is getting a lot of traction on Twitter amongst UK commentators as to how people like him should have been dealt with over the years on UK television.

Zubeneschamali

MrMusician18 wrote: »

An assembly already exists for the purpose of legislating, the HoC.

What the CA exposed in Ireland was that the Dáil was at least 10 maybe 20 years behind the public in its thinking. The votes in the CA mirrored the final referendum result very accurately.


Many here have pointed out that most MPs are remainers, but dysfunctional politics at Westminster is preventing them from simply acting on that. A CA could skip the dysfunction and decide to remain.

fash

Leroy42 wrote: »

Simply because she was trying to prove how decisive and stable she was. She believed the media hype that she was Thatcher Mk2, going to go to Europe to sort out those pesky continentals.

It was a massive misjudgement, she effectively gave up her power when she agreed to wishes of Davis etc to start the process without doing any planning.



In a democracy surely listening to the people is a good thing, or do you think Kenny (or any leader) simply knows what the public wants?

Whilst you may disagree with the exact make up of a CA, I think they have worked quite well in Ireland. Far from perfect but much better than simply letting the cabinet make decisions based on nothing more than their own opinions.

A CA would have been a great idea for the UK. Bring in people from all over the UK to discuss the real impacts of Brexit, the issues, the pros and cons. At least then the report forms a basis for a debate where the issues raised can be discussed across the wider country.

Brexit completely failed to deal with any of the real issues

I agree- one significant problem with brexit is the extent to which May refused to look for a consensus (which given the 48/52 split should have been sought) but instead decided to ram her version of brexit down everyone's throat- then only looked for support when it was spat back up.
At least an assembly has a form of "consensus building" in it.

Hurrache

A concise summary as to the current state of play with May.
https://twitter.com/GuitarMoog/status/1090168504031068161

Igotadose

Hurrache wrote: »

That Claire Byrne clip of her interview with Farage is getting a lot of traction on Twitter amongst UK commentators as to how people like him should have been dealt with over the years on UK television.

It's better than average, agreed, but not overwhelming. She called him on the Lisbon treaty but he just prattled on with his UKIP talking points ('unelected old men', etc.)

No one ever says, "But that's just not true" or, "You've been proven wrong time and again" and so forth. Not confrontative enough imo. Better than the job she did with the first repeal the 8th 'town meeting' back last year at least, but she's got a ways to go.

seamus

Hurrache wrote: »

The Citiziens Assembly was a tremendous success, and has been analysed and praised outside of Ireland as a model that can be used elsewhere. It was only praised this morning by a Labour MP, his only hesitation was how well it would translate to a country with a much larger population.

It's kind of off topic, but it was fairly rounded on at the time as Enda Kenny putting hard topics out to pasture. That it would be a talking shop where nothing of meaning would happen and the Government of the day could absolve themselves of any responsibility.

That may potentially have been his intention, but what the CA actually did was take the politics out of social questions. Ask the question, provide experts and hard data, incubate it and come out with a recommendation; Uninterrupted by people stealing the spotlight for personal gain, and with ideological motives removed from the process.

Yes, it means the politicians get to wash their hand of making hard decisions - but it also means that other politicians find it harder to scupper the process to score political points. The abortion referendum is the perfect example. If repealing the eighth had been a bill put forward by FG with no context of the CA behind it, it would have been defeated. Sinn Féin would have had their own alternate bill, Independents would have needed (political) bribes to vote in favour, and FF would have opposed it outright.

Instead it passed with a nearly 4:1 majority.

As others say, a CA would have been a good idea to deal with Brexit. Hell, it should have been done before the referendum.

Far too late now though. 59 days to no deal.

Seth Brundle

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Details of the new plan C emerging, with some remainer and ERG support
https://mobile.twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1090024833432338432

Seems unlikely Ireland or the EU would go for this, essentially it's asking for the negotiation of the backstop to be kicked into the transition period.

Then again, who knows...

Vulgar as it is, this is an apt reply...
https://twitter.com/davemacladd/status/1090043708928679938?s=19
It indicates the sheer lack of understanding of the exit process and the UK/EU negotiations.

downcow wrote: »

I can’t agree. I have started watching RTÉ news at 6 for the last couple of weeks. Have never seen it before. And I am amazed at how the journalists and politicians seem to be supporting each other. No real challenge at all to current thinking. Eg I never here the challenge that roi uncompromising position on the backstop is the very thing that may lead to a no deal. (Please I’m not debating that again I am simply say I never see it put strongly to politician by RTÉ).
I find little questioning on here of roi position and I think that is partly because you are not being challenged by you own media.
For anyone to say that the British media eg bbc is pro brexit is absurd.

Aaagh would you please stop with the nonsense?
When reading your posts I can't help being reminded of the Fr. Dougal meme with the reality vs dreams and the rabbits runnibg about un his head.

FrancieBrady

VinLieger wrote: »

I will never understand why she rushed on A50

In years to come they will do a 'What if...' type programme on this.

'What if the DUP hadn't held May's government by the proverbials'

We'd be a year into Trade talks now with northern Ireland basking in the best of all worlds.

prawnsambo

Igotadose wrote: »

It's better than average, agreed, but not overwhelming. She called him on the Lisbon treaty but he just prattled on with his UKIP talking points ('unelected old men', etc.)

No one ever says, "But that's just not true" or, "You've been proven wrong time and again" and so forth. Not confrontative enough imo. Better than the job she did with the first repeal the 8th 'town meeting' back last year at least, but she's got a ways to go.

Yeah. THough I think there's an unspoken rule that you don't continually slap down an interviewee for fear of the interview ending prematurely. You may have a substantive point to make and you'll give up a couple of points in order to get to your main one. Not sure if that happened there, but it's often the case.

VinLieger

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In years to come they will do a 'What if...' type programme on this.

'What if the DUP hadn't held May's government by the proverbials'

We'd be a year into Trade talks now with northern Ireland basking in the best of all worlds.

This indeed, A50 and the needless GE which she stupidly assumed would be a cake walk.


Every so often i think where we would be if the DUP didnt have her by the throat and then I remember its actually her fault they are in such a powerful position so I find it hard to have any sympathy.

FrancieBrady

VinLieger wrote: »

This indeed, A50 and the needless GE which she stupidly assumed would be a cake walk.


Every so often i think where we would be if the DUP didnt have her by the throat and then I remember its actually her fault they are in such a powerful position so I find it hard to have any sympathy.

Yep. It's not like she wasn't loudly told what they were like.
If there is any 'plus' out of this whole debacle I think it is that at least the rest of the UK have tumbled to how intransigent they are.

MrMusician18

VinLieger wrote: »

I will never understand why she rushed on A50

There was pressure from the country to implement the referendum result. Imagine here of the referendum on abortion or divorce wasn't implemented for years after the result, the government would pay a huge electoral price.
Particularly so for the Tories, whose voters have a big crossover with leavers.

Hurrache

Igotadose wrote: »

It's better than average, agreed, but not overwhelming. She called him on the Lisbon treaty but he just prattled on with his UKIP talking points ('unelected old men', etc.)

That's missing the point as to how it has been handled by UK media in comparison. He was on the back foot and exposed within his first couple of statements as someone talking out his arse, for the few that already weren't aware.

prawnsambo

VinLieger wrote: »

I will never understand why she rushed on A50

The harder brexiters were pushing for it because it was a limbo situation where Britain could do nothing until it was triggered. Totally short-sighted and internally focused as usual, but there was masses of pressure to "just get on with it" and deliver the brexit they were all salivating for. And May thought she could get herself a new treaty with the EU by holding brexit over their heads as a weapon, hence the runaround of EU leaders and bypassing of Barnier. It was the most asinine idea possible, but when have the Tories ever thought outside their own little bubble?

VinLieger

MrMusician18 wrote: »

There was pressure from the country to implement the referendum result. Imagine here of the referendum on abortion or divorce wasn't implemented for years after the result, the government would pay a huge electoral price.
Particularly so for the Tories, whose voters have a big crossover with leavers.

48/52 does not equal huge pressure to implement the result of an ADVISORY referendum. There was pressure from within her parties radical wing and the radical right wing media i think is what you mean


Theres pressure in Ireland as our constitutional referendum are legally binding and mean critical changes to the constitution that if they are left for years to be signed into law can potentially mean legal issues mount up and become quite serious.

Sam Russell

The Labour MP on Pat Kenny said he was in Colraine and was accosted by someone complaining about the term Brexit . The complainer said it should, because it was the UK that was exiting, it should be called UK-exit, or maybe UKoff.

I thought that was quite funny.

ancapailldorcha

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Labour MP on Pat Kenny said he was in Colraine and was accosted by someone complaining about the term Brexit . The complainer said it should, because it was the UK that was exiting, it should be called UK-exit, or maybe UKoff.

I thought that was quite funny.

I don't see how. It's emblematic of the fanatical brand of Unionism which prevents the issue of the Irish border being solved. I can't see moderate Unionists holding up everything over the backstop.

VinLieger

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Labour MP on Pat Kenny said he was in Colraine and was accosted by someone complaining about the term Brexit . The complainer said it should, because it was the UK that was exiting, it should be called UK-exit, or maybe UKoff.

I thought that was quite funny.

LOL surprised the DUP haven't gotten up in arms about this, technically the term Brexit means they should be staying doesn't it :P

Dyr

Right so, hard Brexit it is I suppose. Fairly obvious that no-one in Westminister has a bulls notion how they're going get away with Schrodingers Backstop.

I thought Brexit was like the bridge on the Titanic demanding that the iceberg change course, but it's actually the bridge on the Titanic thinking if they hit that iceberg hard enough it will sink.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In years to come they will do a 'What if...' type programme on this.

'What if the DUP hadn't held May's government by the proverbials'

We'd be a year into Trade talks now with northern Ireland basking in the best of all worlds.

We could all play at what-ifs.

What if SF hadn't taken a hissy fit and brought down the Northern Assembly?
What if SF had stopped standing idly by and took its seats in Westminister to provide a platform for an alternative NI view of Brexit?
What is SF hadn't sat on its hands when the chance was there to form the last Government in the South?

They had three chances to do the right thing and took none. There is an awful lot of blame to go around and it doesn't all fall on the DUP.

Sam Russell

Bambi wrote: »

Right so, hard Brexit it is I suppose. Fairly obvious that no-one in Westminister has a bulls notion how they're going get away with Schrodingers Backstop.

I thought Brexit was like the bridge on the Titanic demanding that the iceberg change course, but it's actually the bridge on the Titanic thinking if they hit that iceberg hard enough it will sink.

It did.

Actually, if they had altered course to go straight at the iceberg and hit it straight on, they would not have sunk. It was the glancing blow that holed too many of the outer walls of the ship that caused it to sink. The Titanic was unsinkable - until it did.

Leroy42

I think they meant the Iceberg would sink! So the EU need the UK more line of thinking

Hurrache

blanch152 wrote: »

We could all play at what-ifs.

What if SF hadn't taken a hissy fit and brought down the Northern Assembly?
What if SF had stopped standing idly by and took its seats in Westminister to provide a platform for an alternative NI view of Brexit?
What is SF hadn't sat on its hands when the chance was there to form the last Government in the South?

They had three chances to do the right thing and took none. There is an awful lot of blame to go around and it doesn't all fall on the DUP.

An unusual perspective on Brexit, I'll grant you that.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

We could all play at what-ifs.

What if SF hadn't taken a hissy fit and brought down the Northern Assembly?
What if SF had stopped standing idly by and took its seats in Westminister to provide a platform for an alternative NI view of Brexit?
What is SF hadn't sat on its hands when the chance was there to form the last Government in the South?

They had three chances to do the right thing and took none. There is an awful lot of blame to go around and it doesn't all fall on the DUP.

Everyone knew SF policy before this. No surprises there for their electorate or anyone else with a brain in the game.

What we didn't know, was how desperate Theresa May was to stay in power and that it would stretch to doing real and lasting damage to the UK.

p.s. I think the UK government are now well aware of an 'alternative view' of Brexit.
Whether by accident or design, (I have my own view on that) allowing that view(or prompting it) to come from Dublin central was a masterstroke.

Sam Russell

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think they meant the Iceberg would sink! So the EU need the UK more line of thinking

Are we not allowed a little joke?

Hermy

Igotadose wrote: »

It's better than average, agreed, but not overwhelming. She called him on the Lisbon treaty but he just prattled on with his UKIP talking points ('unelected old men', etc.)

No one ever says, "But that's just not true" or, "You've been proven wrong time and again" and so forth. Not confrontative enough imo. Better than the job she did with the first repeal the 8th 'town meeting' back last year at least, but she's got a ways to go.

I think she handled him perfectly - calmly pointing out the error of his ways but not getting dragged into an argument - something I'm sure he would have preferred.