Brexit Discussion Thread VI

fash

Hurrache wrote: »

Steve Baker insisting that their plan is actually a backstop.

Honestly the best counter is to offer a time limit in relation to GB. More difficult to accuse Europe of intransigence.

Edit: it would also be a wonderful UK tactic of divide and conquer turned back on them (ERG v DUP)

Professor Moriarty

First Up wrote: »

I know that but what the British public thinks about it all doesn't matter a jot.

No. As long as they vote Tory then they are of little concern to Bojo, Jacob, Fox etc.

Hurrache

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

He's right. A time-limited backstop.

Including what he calls "FTA Light" which will work just the same as the current VAT etc system.

Professor Moriarty

Hurrache wrote: »

Including what he calls "FTA Light" which will work just the same as the current VAT etc system works.

Plus he mentions technology. They obviously have made a major breakthrough on that front. May will be explaining how it works in the HOC this afternoon.

First Up

Adamcp898 wrote:

I know it's tempting to just sit back and laugh at the fumbling ineptitude going on in Westminster but the stakes really are quite high for us as well.

We are not just sitting back and laughing at them. We are dealing with the parts we can do something about.

I really don't care what the British public think now, or what they will think in a year or two.

Adamcp898

First Up wrote: »

We are not just sitting back and laughing at them. We are dealing with the parts we can do something about.

I really don't care what the British public think now, or what they will think in a year or two.

I didn't say we weren't?


That partial quote was directed at the general "**** the Brits" tone that crops up in this thread from time to time. We're still coming out of this losing too.

Akrasia

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Plus he mentions technology. They obviously have made a major breakthrough on that front. May will be explaining how it works in the HOC this afternoon.

The only possible breakthrough that will work, is to keep the whole UK in the Single Market, and keep NI in the customs Union.

No more Backstop, no worries about a border at NI and the EU would agree to reopen the negotiations and extend A50

Of course, May appears to now be saying that she wants to reopen the negotiations with the EU while still refusing to acknowledge that they need an extension to Article 50 and the UK are still leaving on 29th of March

She's living in the 4th level of inception cloud cuckoo land

Hurrache

So even with all the hype that the party is starting to come together, it's under the knowledge they actually know they're doomed to failure, it's theatrics.
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1090228993155100672

lawred2

Adamcp898 wrote: »

I didn't say we weren't?


That partial quote was directed at the general "**** the Brits" tone that crops up in this thread from time to time. We're still coming out of this losing too.

Well to be fair the fact that we are going to be f***ed without our involvement, consent or complicity kinda tends to result in tones and sentiments like "**** the Brits"

Do you think wishing otherwise will leave us less f***ed?

LuckyLloyd

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Fact checking cuts one way though with the Irish media, when it fits the narrative. No one pushes McDonagh of pavee point on the Traveller criminality problem, nor do they question why some people are up to 8-10 years in direct provision neglecting to mention the fact that they are there due to them taking endless appeals.

Or media is just as biased.

You've cited two very niche low priority issues there tbh, for which you are demanding a particular editorial bent. And I'm fairly certain that traveller criminality or issue with direct provision have been reported in the Irish media over the past 15 years. I know I've read about travellers in court or pieces on direct provision legislation, etc anyway.

Adamcp898

Hurrache wrote: »

So even with all the hype that the party is starting to come together, it's under the knowledge they actually know they're doomed to failure, it's theatrics.
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1090228993155100672

Apparently she will also hold informal talks with the EU today as well. No word on whether it's before or after votes but at least it somewhat makes sense of why she's opening the debate and showing her "new" hand straight away.

https://twitter.com/BBCVickiYoung/status/1090226146887823362?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1090226146887823362&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Flive%2Fuk-politics-47030804

LeinsterDub

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

He's right. A time-limited backstop.

So it's a water tight sieve?

Adamcp898

lawred2 wrote: »

Well to be fair the fact that we are going to be f***ed without our consent or complicity kinda tends to result in tones and sentiments like "**** the Brits"

Do you think wishing otherwise will leave us less f***ed?

Thought it was blatantly obvious from my post where I lean on this particular sentiment, no?

Or is it that we just want to yell it for the sake of it perhaps?

Hurrache

Step in, step out, step in again. WTF is going on over there. So after this morning publicly saying they'll back the ERG, they're now saying they'll do as May requests and back Brady. Was their provisional support of Malthouse a way of strong arming her, again?
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1090235802804736002


And Verhofstadt has apparently just said this
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-vote-eu-parliament-theresa-may-verhofstadt-irish-backstop-border-a8751986.html?fbclid=IwAR30lemsTcAJ85_oWwrlJojpy2RyT9Ld_kDhSddCvj1Jxm_1y_5qAujoN7M

Eurosceptic MPs have also tried to unilaterally amend the withdrawal agreement itself during the ratification process – an approach rebels are expected to repeat when the treaty soon returns to the Commons for a second vote.

But the intervention by the European Parliament’s high-profile Brexit coordinator shows the pressure the EU side is under not to budge on UK demands from MEPs as well as its member states.
“The European Parliament will not give its consent to a watered down Withdrawal Agreement,” Mr Verhofstadt told The Independent.

“The deal we have is fair and cannot be re-negotiated. The backstop is needed because of UK red – lines and was crafted by the UK and the EU to secure the Good Friday Agreement.

“We remain open to positive changes regarding the future relationship and it is time for a more consensual cross- party approach to deliver this.”

LuckyLloyd

'If ye agree to a permanent customs union you can have so many things you may want' - the EU

ilovesmybrick

SNIP. Don't paste fillipant tweets here please.

VinLieger

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Thought it was blatantly obvious from my post where I lean on this particular sentiment, no?

Or is it that we just want to yell it for the sake of it perhaps?

People are rightfully annoyed at their absolute shambolic handling of this and the plain wanton ignorance of a majority of their populace that seems to be growing on a daily basis if polls are to be believed, I think the very fact that we are being dragged down unwillingly with them is enough of a reason for people in this country and this thread to be pissed at them and similarly be allowed to voice that frustration however they feel

lawred2

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Thought it was blatantly obvious from my post where I lean on this particular sentiment, no?

Or is it that we just want to yell it for the sake of it perhaps?

I don't know really - think it's a concern for your own head. I don't see too much of it in this thread. But even if it were a central theme it wouldn't be an entirely unjustified central theme.

I do see a lot of justified frustration at an abject self destructive political system in this thread however

Your concerns are at bit Helen Lovejoyesque

"Won't somebody please think of the children (Brits)"

MrMusician18

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You've cited two very niche low priority issues there tbh, for which you are demanding a particular editorial bent. And I'm fairly certain that traveller criminality or issue with direct provision have been reported in the Irish media over the past 15 years. I know I've read about travellers in court or pieces on direct provision legislation, etc anyway.

Perhaps, but Casey got a huge vote (28% iirc) on the back of one remark that many saw as the first bit of truth on the Traveller issue and as two burned out hotels show you DP is a significant issue as well. I wouldn't call either of these niche tbh.

They point I'm making is you don't see interviewers taking such a hard line on those topics, when hard questions are justified. Correcting farage is easy here when the ideas he pushes have little public support and have no support in the media.

Make no mistake, I love seeing a take down of Farage but the idea that we have "a fine tradition of well informed and fact confident current affairs presenters with a sense of the importance of their role" is a total nonsense.

The time for the Irish media to shine was during the financial crisis and it failed miserably. Just as the UK media has failed miserably over the past three years.

Fine tradition of well informed, fact confident presenters me arse...

Skelet0n

MrMusician18 wrote: »

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You've cited two very niche low priority issues there tbh, for which you are demanding a particular editorial bent. And I'm fairly certain that traveller criminality or issue with direct provision have been reported in the Irish media over the past 15 years. I know I've read about travellers in court or pieces on direct provision legislation, etc anyway.

Perhaps, but Casey got a huge vote (28% iirc) on the back of one remark that many saw as the first bit of truth on the Traveller issue and as two burned out hotels show you DP is a significant issue as well. I wouldn't call either of these niche tbh.

They point I'm making is you don't see interviewers taking such a hard line on those topics, when hard questions are justified. Correcting farage is easy here when the ideas he pushes have little public support and have no support in the media.

Make no mistake, I love seeing a take down of Farage but the idea that we have "a fine tradition of well informed and fact confident current affairs presenters with a sense of the importance of their role" is a total nonsense.

The time for the Irish media to shine was during the financial crisis and it failed miserably. Just as the UK media has failed miserably over the past three years.

Fine tradition of well informed, fact confident presenters me arse...

This isn’t after hours lad.

First Up

Adamcp898 wrote:

I didn't say we weren't?

You said we shouldn't just sit back and laugh.

ancapailldorcha

Skelet0n wrote: »

This isn’t after hours lad.

Don't backseat mod. Use the report function if you see a problem.

Adamcp898

VinLieger wrote: »

People are rightfully annoyed at their absolute shambolic handling of this and the plain wanton ignorance of a majority of their populace that seems to be growing on a daily basis if polls are to be believed, I think the very fact that we are being dragged down unwillingly with them is enough of a reason for people in this country and this thread to be pissed at them and similarly be allowed to voice that frustration however they feel

This is not what I'm referring to. Go back to my original post on the subject if you wish to but the more rational reactions that you're referring to in this post are not what I was talking about.

lawred2 wrote: »

I don't know really - think it's a concern for your own head. I don't see too much of it in this thread. But even if it were a central theme it wouldn't be an entirely unjustified central theme.

I do see a lot of justified frustration at an abject self destructive political system in this thread however

Your concerns are at bit Helen Lovejoyesque

"Won't somebody please think of the children (Brits)"

A lot of this thread is people trying to have a go for the sake of it. Some of it in the age old United Ireland, Republican vs. Unionist tired format. Only unfortunately a lot of it reads like they're painfully unaware of how indiscriminate the fallout from this is going to be, no matter where they feel they stand.

But I guess that is the thing with throwing words like "justified" around, it's different for everyone.

And the final point to your post sums it up entirely tbh. Only that I've no vested interest in defending the "Brits" so whatever argument you're spoiling for you won't find it with me.

robinph

If the UK parliament is stupid enough to try to amend the backstop, and the EU is then stupid enough to agree to any changes then one point about the EU that Brexiteers have been parroting will become true. The EU would be finished.

EdgeCase

Based on what Sabine Weyand said, I'd be quite confident that the EU side is not at all likely to accept any unilateral changes.

Also I'd be confident that the EU side are absolutely not pushovers.

I get the impression the UK side is completely out of it depth and negotiating with itself in the Westminster and tabloid newspaper bubble again.

The impression I'm getting is the EU is running out of patience and is also seeing the UK repeatedly acting in bad faith and attempting to "pull a fast one" rather than engage in genuine negotiations.

I suspect the sense of frustration many of us are feeling and the sense that there's a crude attempt going on to screw us over is very much being experienced in Brussels too.

Professor Moriarty

robinph wrote: »

If the UK parliament is stupid enough to try to amend the backstop, and the EU is then stupid enough to agree to any changes then one point about the EU that Brexiteers have been parroting will become true. The EU would be finished.

Exactly. The EU would be seen as weak and open to exploitation from within and without.

Hurrache

May in the commons has said she wants to go back to Brussels to negotiate a deal based on what the house want.

She said she'll bring back a revised deal for a second meaningful vote as soon as she can.

She's going all balls out looking to renegotiate with the EU.

Beechwoodspark

Hurrache wrote: »

May in the commons has said she wants to go back to Brussels to negotiate a deal based on what the house want. Eh, you already done that, over almost 2 years.

She said she'll bring back a revised deal for a second meaningful vote as soon as she can.

Be some craic if Brussels just announce don’t bother flying over love, the deal is not gonna be reopened

EdgeCase

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Be some craic if Brussels just announce don’t bother flying over love, the deal is not gonna be reopened

That's more or less what the deputy negotiator said yesterday. She didn't quite word it that way but the message was about as blunt as you could possibly make it.

FrancieBrady

Adamcp898 wrote: »

A lot of this thread is people trying to have a go for the sake of it. Some of it in the age old United Ireland, Republican vs. Unionist tired format. Only unfortunately a lot of it reads like they're painfully unaware of how indiscriminate the fallout from this is going to be, no matter where they feel they stand.

.

Beggars belief how this cannot be seen as one of the fundamental problems with the partition of this island.

It may have happened 100 years ago but it's effects are still with us and still profound.
We found a way to take the 'conflict and violence' out of it, but now we have Westminster and a belligerent single party, toying with it in the crazy belief that it will do no harm.

Of course any genuine Irish person is going to be angry about that.