Brexit Discussion Thread VI

FreudianSlippers

Enzokk wrote: »

No, any border will have a negative impact on NI. Whichever one you pick will hurt the economy, so that is why it is unfathomable to me that any party in NI would have decided Brexit is a good idea. There is nothing good about it...and yet here we are.

Isn't that contradictory with the point you made directly above?

Enzokk wrote: »

There is already a border in the Irish Sea. There are already checks happening between NI and the rest of the UK. This is what Barnier was talking about when he said they need to soften the language on the border. It will be easier to maintain no border as all parties want by increasing checks where they are already happening, instead of creating a new border that will be impossible to do.

My point was less eloquent than yours, but I was conveying the same message. The mooted Irish Sea border is not significantly more onerous than the current border.

Enzokk

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Isn't that contradictory with the point you made directly above?



My point was less eloquent than yours, but I was conveying the same message. The mooted Irish Sea border is not significantly more onerous than the current border.

Oh, yes that is true. The impact from Brexit will be severe whichever option they choose but the Irish Sea border will be less onerous.

Hurrache

Brexit bonus for one industry anyway, so it's not all bad news.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1074987787953336322?s=19

Zubeneschamali

cml387 wrote: »

I can understand the view in Britain that they are being bullied by the EU, even it's the wrong view.

After all, did we not have the same view when it came to the bailout?

Not me!


I wish the troika had stuck around long enough to sort out the HSE and our lawyers.

FreudianSlippers

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Not me!


I wish the troika had stuck around long enough to sort out the HSE and our lawyers.

Most lawyers aren't paid by the State - you are aware of that?

Let's get them back to deal with the plumbers, electricians, taxi drivers, etc. while we're at it?

RobMc59

Hurrache wrote: »

This is exactly the type of ignorance I was talking about.

Although the UK itself is to blame for brexit,the attitude"lets get on with it!"which seems to worryingly be growing in the UK is fuelled by what is fast becoming a siege mentality by some.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Although the UK itself is to blame for brexit,the attitude"lets get on with it!"which seems to worryingly be growing in the UK is fuelled by what is fast becoming a siege mentality by some.

Let's dissect this.

Firstly, the "Let's get on with it" attitude is likely a symptom of political fatigue across the UK. In the past five years, we've had 2 general elections, 2 sets of local elections, a highly divisive referendum with seconds for the Scots and European elections. That's a relatively high amount of trips to the ballot box for a country which rarely indulges in referenda. Many people are fed up of hearing about Brexit and want to get on with it. These tend to be older people while the younger tend to favour abandoning the whole fell enterprise.

Secondly, the siege mentality is a product of years of being drip-fed poison by an overwhelmingly right-wing, anti-working class Eurosceptic press whose owners despise the EU. That's basically it. The Conservative party was happy to moan about the EU without ever trying to make it work for Britain, at least in the past few decades. The quintessential countervailing example is Margaret Thatcher and the Delors commission. The EU has been depicted from being meddlesome to Mrs. Merkel's personal Fourth Reich by the British press while the Guardian has opted to become the leading producer of divisive identity politics and the BBC has striven for "Balance" by attempting to offend nobody and failing everyone.

Successive Labour and Conservative governments had opportunities to try and make the UK less unequal. Instead, they did the opposite. Smashing unions, hollowing out institutions, the Iraq war, the expenses scandal, letting the north, Scotland, Wales and NI rot while London and the southeast flourish while trying to sell off the NHS piecemeal were the orders of the day and this is the result. You can't create a chasm of inequality and then complain when people on either side of said chasm view each other with hostility. This is the result and it was made in Britain.

First Up

RobMc59 wrote:

Although the UK itself is to blame for brexit,the attitude"lets get on with it!"which seems to worryingly be growing in the UK is fuelled by what is fast becoming a siege mentality by some.

We are dealing with the Bereavement Curve. There's still a good bit to go.

Strazdas

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Let's dissect this.

Firstly, the "Let's get on with it" attitude is likely a symptom of political fatigue across the UK. In the past five years, we've had 2 general elections, 2 sets of local elections, a highly divisive referendum with seconds for the Scots and European elections. That's a relatively high amount of trips to the ballot box for a country which rarely indulges in referenda. Many people are fed up of hearing about Brexit and want to get on with it. These tend to be older people while the younger tend to favour abandoning the whole fell enterprise.

Secondly, the siege mentality is a product of years of being drip-fed poison by an overwhelmingly right-wing, anti-working class Eurosceptic press whose owners despise the EU. That's basically it. The Conservative party was happy to moan about the EU without ever trying to make it work for Britain, at least in the past few decades. The quintessential countervailing example is Margaret Thatcher and the Delors commission. The EU has been depicted from being meddlesome to Mrs. Merkel's personal Fourth Reich by the British press while the Guardian has opted to become the leading producer of divisive identity politics and the BBC has striven for "Balance" by attempting to offend nobody and failing everyone.

Successive Labour and Conservative governments had opportunities to try and make the UK less unequal. Instead, they did the opposite. Smashing unions, hollowing out institutions, the Iraq war, the expenses scandal, letting the north, Scotland, Wales and NI rot while London and the southeast flourish while trying to sell off the NHS piecemeal were the orders of the day and this is the result. You can't create a chasm of inequality and then complain when people on either side of said chasm view each other with hostility. This is the result and it was made in Britain.

I've absolutely no sympathy for the "I'm bored with Brexit" brigade.

What on earth did they think they were doing when they strolled into their polling station in 2016? Leaving the EU was an extreme and most radical of policies being proposed by a far right party (UKIP) and yet they ticked X on the ballot paper as if they were voting to raise the price of postage stamps by 10p. It was always highly likely the vote to Leave would set off political chaos in Britain and chaos that would last for many years.

Hurrache

Off topic but not really, I watched a random episode of Pop Goes Northern Ireland the other night, think Reeling in the Years entirely populated with street violence, rioting, murder and triumphalism. It was from 1995, fresh as a daisy to many of us here, the year of the infamous"they haven't gone away you know".

5 minutes watching would focus the mind of anyone downplaying the importance of the GFA.

Tell me how

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Let's dissect this.

Firstly, the "Let's get on with it" attitude is likely a symptom of political fatigue across the UK. In the past five years, we've had 2 general elections, 2 sets of local elections, a highly divisive referendum with seconds for the Scots and European elections. That's a relatively high amount of trips to the ballot box for a country which rarely indulges in referenda. Many people are fed up of hearing about Brexit and want to get on with it. These tend to be older people while the younger tend to favour abandoning the whole fell enterprise.

Secondly, the siege mentality is a product of years of being drip-fed poison by an overwhelmingly right-wing, anti-working class Eurosceptic press whose owners despise the EU. That's basically it. The Conservative party was happy to moan about the EU without ever trying to make it work for Britain, at least in the past few decades. The quintessential countervailing example is Margaret Thatcher and the Delors commission. The EU has been depicted from being meddlesome to Mrs. Merkel's personal Fourth Reich by the British press while the Guardian has opted to become the leading producer of divisive identity politics and the BBC has striven for "Balance" by attempting to offend nobody and failing everyone.

Successive Labour and Conservative governments had opportunities to try and make the UK less unequal. Instead, they did the opposite. Smashing unions, hollowing out institutions, the Iraq war, the expenses scandal, letting the north, Scotland, Wales and NI rot while London and the southeast flourish while trying to sell off the NHS piecemeal were the orders of the day and this is the result. You can't create a chasm of inequality and then complain when people on either side of said chasm view each other with hostility. This is the result and it was made in Britain.

It's a matter of perspective. Your view, which I largely agree with would be discounted entirely by a Breixteer who would likely believe and write something 'like' the following.

Over the past 20 odd years, since the Maastricht treaty we have seen the EU steadily tighten its grip on Europe in a way which no-one who advocated joining the common economic area in 1973 expected or would be in favour of.

Recent worldwide liberal movements have been instigated and encouraged by upper-class groups and individuals. These elitists will never have to suffer the consequence of failed immigrant integration or reduced employment conditions as a result of the masses of people which have moved from Africa and the Middle East with largely financial motivations.

This ultra-liberal movement has tried to create a world where the white male existing today is responsible for all injustices suffered by people of colour and must succumb to a manner of some sort of positive discrimination to atone for their perceived sins. The UK, given its historic relevance has long been a target for other nations who have always been jealous of the standing which it has held in the world. It is now being told that not only can it not control its borders or its own economy or justice system, it must be punished for even attempting to do so.

Finally, now that the elites within the UK and Europe see just how determined we are to leave, and out of their concerns for what that will do to their 'Euroland' dream project, they are seeking to undermine the most democratic vote the country has ever held in order to make us stay.

The subjectivity within this is what is making it so emotive and dramatic. (No surprise, that's what politics breaks down to)

Tell me how

Hurrache wrote: »

Off topic but not really, I wat a random episode of Pop Goes Northern Ireland the other night, think Reeling in the Years entirely populated with street violence, rioting, murder and triumphalism. It was from 1995, fresh as a daisy to many of us here, the year of the infamous"they haven't gone away you know".

5 minutes watching would focus the mind of anyone downplaying the importance of the GFA.

I saw the last 3 episodes of this.
Each of the episodes I saw seemed to be primarily focused on the troubles and the associated violence.

It was no accident that appeared on the air at this point in time and I wonder were there complaints by some DUP people that it was unsuitable to broadcast this right now.

I must keep an eye out for the full series if it is shown again.

Strazdas

Hurrache wrote: »

Off topic but not really, I wat a random episode of Pop Goes Northern Ireland the other night, think Reeling in the Years entirely populated with street violence, rioting, murder and triumphalism. It was from 1995, fresh as a daisy to many of us here, the year of the infamous"they haven't gone away you know".

5 minutes watching would focus the mind of anyone downplaying the importance of the GFA.

I've seen a few episodes of that programme. I think people nearly forget how dysfunctional and toxic NI was back then. Every episode was full of bombings, shootings and riots and interviews with angry politicians.

Strazdas

Tell me how wrote: »

I saw the last 3 episodes of this.
Each of the episodes I saw seemed to be primarily focused on the troubles and the associated violence.

It was no accident that appeared on the air at this point in time and I wonder were there complaints by some DUP people that it was unsuitable to broadcast this right now.

I must keep an eye out for the full series if it is shown again.

Declan Lynch reviewed it in his Sunday Indo column a few weeks back and said that the Republic was almost like paradise in comparison in that a typical Reeling In The Years episode would have loads of 'normal' stories and events, not dominated by terrorism and murders.

Strazdas

Strazdas wrote: »

I've seen a few episodes of that programme. I think people nearly forget how dysfunctional and toxic NI was back then. Every episode was full of bombings, shootings and riots and interviews with angry politicians.

Anyone who got BBCNI should remember the morning news pretty much every day starting with "A man has been injured in a paramilitary-style attack in..." unless there had been a bombing in the last few days.

EdgeCase

What's worrying is the same kind of bad old days of NI mentality - ultra hard-line, uncompromising identity politics is precisely what's now feeding Brexit England.

You've people willing to throw the country into chaos all to achieve what is basically an argument about emotions and political ideology.

Bear in mind there has already been horrible incidents relating to this debate in England, notably an MP being shot dead and that is something which I don't think has really sunk in over there at all. That was a horrific incident to happen in any kind of developed democracy and it wasn't really analysed very hard.

It felt like they just kind of collectively shrugged their shoulders and moved on. To me that lack of critique of what's going on at that point was an indication that something is very, very wrong in English (not necessarily British) politics.

I mean even if they want to leave the EU, which is a legitimate thing for a population to decide, why is it being done in the most agressive and self-destructive way possible?

Why are they tolerating a scenario where ministers are discussing potential food and medicine shortages as if this is a necessary thing?

They seem to be putting themselves into some kind of deranged and totally unnecessary war like mentality.

A lot of this stuff will do irreparable damage to the UK economy because it's going to be seen as politically unstable and an investment risk. It's absolutely insane.

Northern Ireland always had the safety net of not actually having all the levers of power and having pragmatic governance imposed by mammy and daddy when things went crazy. The UK can basically go completely crazy and there's nobody out there to come to the rescue.

I think you're looking at economic disaster and probably needing IMF intervention in 12 months time.

ancapailldorcha

Strazdas wrote: »

I've absolutely no sympathy for the "I'm bored with Brexit" brigade.

What on earth did they think they were doing when they strolled into their polling station in 2016? Leaving the EU was an extreme and most radical of policies being proposed by a far right party (UKIP) and yet they ticked X on the ballot paper as if they were voting to raise the price of postage stamps by 10p. It was always highly likely the vote to Leave would set off political chaos in Britain and chaos that would last for many years.

I was thinking of both sides there. I think your average voter of either bent just wants progress and not more debate. Of course, we're then back to the conceit that a binary referendum could resolve such a complex and multifaceted issue.

Kermit.de.frog

Why would the EU want to negotiate a "managed no deal"? Unless the EU 27 felt it was a critical economic interest for them.

The truth is it isn't.

Strazdas

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I was thinking of both sides there. I think your average voter of either bent just wants progress and not more debate. Of course, we're then back to the conceit that a binary referendum could resolve such a complex and multifaceted issue.

Definitely the public were lied to by their press over many years but the 17m were also unbelievably cavalier with their vote. Cameron told them the vote was irreversible and there were the numerous warnings about the potential negative impacts of Brexit : they must be a nation of hardened gamblers, as they threw their mortgage and their life savings onto the roulette wheel with scarcely a moment's thought.

Professor Moriarty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Why would the EU want to negotiate a "managed no deal"? Unless the EU 27 felt it was a critical economic interest for them.

The truth is it isn't.

"That is a unicorn that needs to be slaughtered."

Tell me how

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

"That is a unicorn that needs to be slaughtered."

A petition in the UK reached over 100K signatures (meaning the government responded to it) calling for a No Deal because the organisers believed that a No Deal would allow them to keep things the way they are and to start negotiating after the 29th of March. :eek: :eek:

The government responded with one of May's statements "The deal which has been negotiated is the best deal and is the deal that will be delivered".

Professor Moriarty

Tell me how wrote: »

A petition in the UK reached over 100K signatures (meaning the government responded to it) calling for a No Deal because the organisers believed that a No Deal would allow them to keep things the way they are and to start negotiating after the 29th of March. :eek: :eek:

The government responded with one of May's statements "The deal which has been negotiated is the best deal and is the deal that will be delivered".

You can fool some of the people all the time.

Strazdas

Tell me how wrote: »

A petition in the UK reached over 100K signatures (meaning the government responded to it) calling for a No Deal because the organisers believed that a No Deal would allow them to keep things the way they are and to start negotiating after the 29th of March. :eek: :eek:

The government responded with one of May's statements "The deal which has been negotiated is the best deal and is the deal that will be delivered".

You have national newspapers like The Sun and the Daily Telegraph openly campaigning for No Deal. That's how nutty the atmosphere is.

badtoro

downcow wrote: »

I don’t accept that there is a Devine right for Eu to hold on to states and perceive it as the states fault if it’s peolle decide they want out.

Who is stopping the UK from leaving? As far as anyone knows the UK is exiting the EU March 29th.

As for fault, should we blame Sweden maybe instead? Or Malaysia?

How about the country that voted to leave lays in the bed it's made for itself.

I think the real tantrum behind that thinking is, the EU isn't allowing the UK leave - and take the contents of the house and bank account with it.

ilovesmybrick

Just listened to that...individual...Brendan O'Neil on Sean O'Rourke today. Well worth a listen to hear an Oxford University expert on Irish politics absolutely hand his arse to him. He tries to frame the remain argument and the border issues as "anti-Irish"!

https://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9_21480635_15036_18-12-2018_

Professor Moriarty

Strazdas wrote: »

You have national newspapers like The Sun and the Daily Telegraph openly campaigning for No Deal. That's how nutty the atmosphere is.

It's actually traitorous. They are whipping up nationalism in a way that Orwell's pigs would approve of. The EU is evil and must be defeated. We must stand firm in the face of this threat to our identity and our country.

EdgeCase

@downcow

Absolutely nothing the EU has said or done has been to prevent the UK leaving. The UK can leave in the morning, totally unilaterally if it wants. Nobody is going to stop it doing so.

The fact is that the are practical consequences to this decision. Nobody can magic those away.

ancapailldorcha

Strazdas wrote: »

Definitely the public were lied to by their press over many years but the 17m were also unbelievably cavalier with their vote. Cameron told them the vote was irreversible and there were the numerous warnings about the potential negative impacts of Brexit : they must be a nation of hardened gamblers, as they threw their mortgage and their life savings onto the roulette wheel with scarcely a moment's thought.

Or they believed what their institutions and senior politicians told them, ie that the NHS would be better funded, that decline in the deprived parts of the UK was down to free movement of people and that our laws were being made in Brussels.

You're on a Political forum which is tightly moderated. This isn't a way most people choose to spend their time so it can be fairly argued that you are politically engaged to a degree beyond the average voter. I see where you're coming from but attempts to "otherise" the 17.4 million Leave voters of all stripes aren't going to do any good in the long run.

Kermit.de.frog

Apparently there are going to be "blitz-like" tv ads in Britain in the new year preparing public for no deal including telling people not to book flights abroad from April 1st.

FreudianSlippers

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Apparently there are going to be "blitz-like" tv ads in Britain in the new year preparing public for no deal including telling people not to book flights abroad from April 1st.

I have BBC news on in the background in my office at the moment and I've heard the words "no-deal Brexit" more today than ever before.

(That and a lot of stuff about Mourinho failing miserably at yet another job )