Brexit Discussion Thread VI

Havockk

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I know some dfa ppl and asked them same about RB.

The gist of it is he apparently was a contrarian for years.

There’s bad blood between dfa and him. Something about getting blamed for a cock up years ago. I could go into further detail but I won’t on a public forum.

I also would be curious to know if he is getting any payment for his extremely pro Brexit stance?

Something for ppl to look into maybe.

My guess would be that the money is flowing through think tanks. Policy Exchange has lots of ties to people of like mind to Bassett. Its also been listed as one of teh least transparent think tanks out there in relation to where their funding comes from.

Leroy42

So since the Brexit vote nearly every leading Brexiteer has distanced themselves from the current mess.

Farage, Davis, Raab, Johnson have come out and claimed that Brexit would have been a great idea if only for the Remainers messing it all up. TM is a remainer, Robbins, the EU have been trying to twart the will of the people.

Yet nobody is asking what exactly was the plan that would have worked and why they continue to back TM given how terrible it all is.

nearly 3 years since the vote and still none of them have an actual plan.

Even here, all we get people blaming the EU, Leo etc and asking why the EU can't simply give the UK what it wants.

prawnsambo

Macy0161 wrote: »

But that was the original backstop - it was originally NI only.

Yes, I know. I'm talking about after a crash out where there is no transition period and no relationship. I'm not sure that legally there are grounds to continue something that has ended.

There would be no treaties in effect and NI is not a separate country. The process could take years.

10000maniacs

MPFGLB wrote: »

I am not misrepresenting anything ...I am talking about the conversation between Neil and O Rourke where Neil specifically said what do the Irish want and they will get what they dont want and why are they insisting on the backstop

This implies to all that the Irish have the problem and are the problem with insisting on the backstop with no indication that its no one country's problem and the EU support the backstop

It was a conversation and O Rourke was happy to let those view lie and also comment derogatory on LV personality as if that was the issue
If you were a bystander listening to that you would certainly come away with the view the Irish are the problem

You must have been listening to a different interview.

Neal:
In the event of no deal, will we have a hard border between NI and the ROI?
O'Rourke:
Yes that's my view. It might take weeks or months for that to happen. The government hasn't been planning for this as far as we know and I'm sure they will try to string it out and there will be public procurements and procedures to get the contractors in to delay it, but the Taoiseach needs to come clean on this.
Neal:
But if we leave with no deal because we couldn't change the backstop resulting in a hard border, why not change the backstop?
O'Rourke:
Because if you change the backstop you have a hard border also, because Lancaster house as applied to the UK as a whole necessitates a hard border also and if they concede on the backstop principle, any border that emerges will be permanent whereas if they don't concede, any border that emerges may only turn out to be temporary because if they go into a no deal situation, is that the end of the story? If that is not the end of the story, the backstop is waiting for you.

An Claidheamh

MPFGLB wrote: »

I am not misrepresenting anything ...I am talking about the conversation between Neil and O Rourke where Neil specifically said what do the Irish want and they will get what they dont want and why are they insisting on the backstop

This implies to all that the Irish have the problem and are the problem with insisting on the backstop with no indication that its no one country's problem and the EU support the backstop

It was a conversation and O Rourke was happy to let those view lie and also comment derogatory on LV personality as if that was the issue
If you were a bystander listening to that you would certainly come away with the view the Irish are the problem

Oh it's not your imagination.

RTÉ is often ridiculed as pro-establishment, it is in fact pro-Fianna Fáil - O'Rourke, O'Callaghan, Tubridy, Duffy - I genuinely don't understand why FG have never complained about it.

By the way, I do not vote for FG, and generally don't like them, but it's obvious to me.
(Although, FG don't mind utilising RTÉ for SF bashing when it suits them).

Worth remembering all these RTÉ types were put on crazy money during the Tiger, probably why they identify with FF.

Infini

Leroy42 wrote: »

So since the Brexit vote nearly every leading Brexiteer has distanced themselves from the current mess.

Farage, Davis, Raab, Johnson have come out and claimed that Brexit would have been a great idea if only for the Remainers messing it all up. TM is a remainer, Robbins, the EU have been trying to twart the will of the people.

The simple truth is those people are either opportunists, pot stirrers, incompetents even parasites as they intentionally helped create this mess through their blinkered ideology but when it comes to OWNING the problem they made, created and supported they run and hide because they dont want to be responsible for anything in their lives and rather blame others like the EU for their shortcomings, arrogance and incompetence. They're only interested in themselves and noone else they dont give a damn about the damage because they're either too damn stupid or are intending to profit from it at the expense of everyone else.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yet nobody is asking what exactly was the plan that would have worked and why they continue to back TM given how terrible it all is.

nearly 3 years since the vote and still none of them have an actual plan.

Even here, all we get people blaming the EU, Leo etc and asking why the EU can't simply give the UK what it wants.

The simple truth is that in many ways they either just flat out refuse to think things out especially since this whole Brexit fiasco when leave one was shown to have NO credible planning for even what to do if they won or when confront the hard truths and the consequences of those decisions they refuse to accept that hard reality or try shoving it off on someone else.

I ain't a fan of FG I certainly don't like a few of their policies but to be quite clear Varadakar is doing exactly the job he needs to be doing on Brexit right now. These clowns in Britain have proven they're completely 2 faced and have no compunction of selling others down the line if they dont get their own way. The simple truth with the Backstop is that it's not only a British creation but is something that is an absolute must as they're Diplomatically Bankrupt right now and the only way to be sure they live up to their commitments is by making sure they cannot weasel out of them whenever they feel like it.

That's why the vitrol from them has been so much because we've caught onto their bullshít and wont let them away, the backstop rubs them up the wrong way because it prevent's them from weaseling out of their commitments (unless they hand back NI to ROI of course then they've no longer have a land border with the EU in that case) especially since parts of their government have made it pretty clear they'd rather throw away a hard won peace agreement that's kept a lid on things for 2 decade for a worthless vanity project sponsored by idiocy, disaster capitalists and opportunists.

An Ciarraioch

An interesting suggestion here - after the transition, the UK backstop could revert to an NI one, and a referendum would be held five years after that date:

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/brexit-one-clarification-and-one-concession-the-eu-could-offer-the-uk/

10000maniacs

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Oh it's not your imagination.

RTÉ is often ridiculed as pro-establishment, it is in fact pro-Fianna Fáil - O'Rourke, O'Callaghan, Tubridy, Duffy - I genuinely don't understand why FG have never complained about it.

By the way, I do not vote for FG, and generally don't like them, but it's obvious to me.
(Although, FG don't mind utilising RTÉ for SF bashing when it suits them).

Worth remembering all these RTÉ types were put on crazy money during the Tiger, probably why they identify with FF.

The O'Rourke we are talking about is not Sean O'Rourke. It's Kevin O'Rourke who wrote the book A Short History of Brexit.

Professor Moriarty

10000maniacs wrote: »

The O'Rourke we are talking about is not Sean O'Rourke. It's Kevin O'Rourke who wrote the book A Short History of Brexit.

He was on Newsnight this week. I thought he was disparaging towards British politics/society which was surprising considering he works in a British university.

MPFGLB

10000maniacs wrote: »

You must have been listening to a different interview.

Neal:
In the event of no deal, will we have a hard border between NI and the ROI?
O'Rourke:
Yes that's my view. It might take weeks or months for that to happen. The government hasn't been planning for this as far as we know and I'm sure they will try to string it out and there will be public procurements and procedures to get the contractors in to delay it, but the Taoiseach needs to come clean on this.
Neal:
But if we leave with no deal because we couldn't change the backstop resulting in a hard border, why not change the backstop?
O'Rourke:
Because if you change the backstop you have a hard border also, because Lancaster house as applied to the UK as a whole necessitates a hard border also and if they concede on the backstop principle, any border that emerges will be permanent whereas if they don't concede, any border that emerges may only turn out to be temporary because if they go into a no deal situation, is that the end of the story? If that is not the end of the story, the backstop is waiting for you.

Well I will go back and listen again when I get time...I don't disagree with what you wrote above (and the argument that the back stop allows for time to avoid a permanent hard border ) but as I said to a bystander that conversation indicates a responsibility on Ireland to change the backstop ..remember no everyone appreciates the detail ..even the language I highlighted indicates some subterfuge on the Irish part ...I would have preferred a more balanced approach , especially when they went on to talk about LV and Kenny's personalities in a derogatory way

I dont want to give any ammunition to the hoards in UK who are blaming the Irish

fash

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think this is a bit ridiculous. I don't think anyone is anti-UK. It's perfectly understandable that Irish people would be incensed at the UK's leaving with such feckless disregard for the peace process in NI. Maintaining this takes priority whatever the consequences for the British.

Frankly I quite strongly dislike with the boorish and toxic and sometimes even rabid manner that the UK government, Tories, brexiters, much of the UK press and much of the online UK netizens have acted. It is hard to separate the UK from that much of what is the UK.

10000maniacs

MPFGLB wrote: »

Well I will go back and listen again when I get time...I don't disagree with what you wrote above (and the argument that the back stop allows for time to avoid a permanent hard border ) but as I said to a bystander that conversation indicates a responsibility on Ireland to change the backstop ..remember no everyone appreciates the detail ..even the language I highlighted indicates some subterfuge on the Irish part ...I would have preferred a more balanced approach , especially when they went on to talk about LV and Kenny's personalities in a derogatory way

I dont want to give any ammunition to the hoards in UK who are blaming the Irish

Nobody would blame the Taoiseach for trying to string it out. He is sandwiched between a rock and a hard place not of his own making. O'Rourke did not make any derogatory remarks against Ireland, The Irish government, or Leo. Or any comments that could be perceived as such.

An Claidheamh

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Oh it's not your imagination.

RTÉ is often ridiculed as pro-establishment, it is in fact pro-Fianna Fáil - O'Rourke, O'Callaghan, Tubridy, Duffy - I genuinely don't understand why FG have never complained about it.

By the way, I do not vote for FG, and generally don't like them, but it's obvious to me.
(Although, FG don't mind utilising RTÉ for SF bashing when it suits them).

Worth remembering all these RTÉ types were put on crazy money during the Tiger, probably why they identify with FF.

Sorry, just to clarify I was referring to somebody criticising Séan O' Rourke a couple of days ago, not Kevin O'Rourke on BBC Politics Live, who actually had to put up with a fair bit of nonsense from IDS as usual.

Hurrache

Here's an interesting thing that a Scottish MSP points out that Tony Connelly passed on
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1091009399265607680

black forest

The French obviously felt left out when it comes to additional ferry services to Ireland after Brexit. Now they will get their chance and the subventions from the EU. Will be interesting how fast they can implement the necessary hardware.

https://twitter.com/politicoeurope/status/1090999420471119874?s=21

CelticRambler

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

An interesting suggestion here - after the transition, the UK backstop could revert to an NI one, and a referendum would be held five years after that date:

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/brexit-one-clarification-and-one-concession-the-eu-could-offer-the-uk/

There's no way the DUP would accept that - if NI voted to remain within the SM/CU/aligned with the EU, that would reinforce NI's isolation from GB and increase the pressure for a United Ireland; and we already know that the demographics suggest there'll be a nationalist majority in about 5 years any how.

ancapailldorcha

fash wrote: »

Frankly I quite strongly dislike with the boorish and toxic and sometimes even rabid manner that the UK government, Tories, brexiters, much of the UK press and much of the online UK netizens have acted. It is hard to separate the UK from that much of what is the UK.

The House of Commons is literally designed for boorish old men I'm afraid and shows no signs of changing.

Professor Moriarty

This is Charles Moore writing in The Spectator. You would think this is parody, but I can assure you it's not. This person often writes similar opinion pieces for The Telegrpah.

"What to do about the coming shortage of green groceries of which several supermarkets warned yet again this week if there is a no-deal Brexit on 29 March? I am just old enough to remember when fresh fruit and veg were in short supply at this time of year. People used to know how to store things to mitigate the problem: apples would be carefully laid out on straw-strewn shelves. We ate lots of root vegetables and not much greenery. If ever you saw a strawberry out of season it came, for some reason, from Israel. Perhaps it is time for a Brexit recipe book, like those comforting wartime rationing ones full of bright ideas for dull things. In our part of the south coast we have racier ideas. We have a centuries-old tradition of smuggling (‘brandy for the parson, baccy for the clerk’), and are ready to set out in our little ships to Dunkirk or wherever and bring back luscious black-market lettuces and French beans, oranges and lemons. Our Sussex and Kent smugglers used to be known as ‘free traders’, which is interesting and — if we have to sneak over an EU tariff wall — entirely appropriate for today."

AlmightyCushion

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

This is Charles Moore writing in The Spectator. You would think this is parody, but I can assure you it's not. This person often writes similar opinion pieces for The Telegrpah.

"What to do about the coming shortage of green groceries of which several supermarkets warned yet again this week if there is a no-deal Brexit on 29 March? I am just old enough to remember when fresh fruit and veg were in short supply at this time of year. People used to know how to store things to mitigate the problem: apples would be carefully laid out on straw-strewn shelves. We ate lots of root vegetables and not much greenery. If ever you saw a strawberry out of season it came, for some reason, from Israel. Perhaps it is time for a Brexit recipe book, like those comforting wartime rationing ones full of bright ideas for dull things. In our part of the south coast we have racier ideas. We have a centuries-old tradition of smuggling (‘brandy for the parson, baccy for the clerk’), and are ready to set out in our little ships to Dunkirk or wherever and bring back luscious black-market lettuces and French beans, oranges and lemons. Our Sussex and Kent smugglers used to be known as ‘free traders’, which is interesting and — if we have to sneak over an EU tariff wall — entirely appropriate for today."

If there's ever a fuel shortage, it's not that big of a deal, we can just go back to using the good, old, reliable horse and cart.

Joe_ Public

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

This is Charles Moore writing in The Spectator. You would think this is parody, but I can assure you it's not. This person often writes similar opinion pieces for The Telegrpah.

"What to do about the coming shortage of green groceries of which several supermarkets warned yet again this week if there is a no-deal Brexit on 29 March? I am just old enough to remember when fresh fruit and veg were in short supply at this time of year. People used to know how to store things to mitigate the problem: apples would be carefully laid out on straw-strewn shelves. We ate lots of root vegetables and not much greenery. If ever you saw a strawberry out of season it came, for some reason, from Israel. Perhaps it is time for a Brexit recipe book, like those comforting wartime rationing ones full of bright ideas for dull things. In our part of the south coast we have racier ideas. We have a centuries-old tradition of smuggling (‘brandy for the parson, baccy for the clerk’), and are ready to set out in our little ships to Dunkirk or wherever and bring back luscious black-market lettuces and French beans, oranges and lemons. Our Sussex and Kent smugglers used to be known as ‘free traders’, which is interesting and — if we have to sneak over an EU tariff wall — entirely appropriate for today."

And they can go hang their washing out on Mrs Mays red lines.

prawnsambo

Hurrache wrote: »

Here's an interesting thing that a Scottish MSP points out that Tony Connelly passed on
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1091009399265607680

Yeah, but it's nothing "in this Act". So if the Act is repealed...

briany

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The House of Commons is literally designed for boorish old men I'm afraid and shows no signs of changing.

In most legislative chambers you figure it's mostly politics with a bit of slagging thrown in. In the HoC it seems to be mostly slagging with a bit of politics thrown in.

VinLieger

CelticRambler wrote: »

There's no way the DUP would accept that - if NI voted to remain within the SM/CU/aligned with the EU, that would reinforce NI's isolation from GB and increase the pressure for a United Ireland; and we already know that the demographics suggest there'll be a nationalist majority in about 5 years any how.

I disagree i think an Irish sea border would lead to a longer wait for a UI than a full on hard brexit with a hard border.

PhoenixParker

CelticRambler wrote: »

There's no way the DUP would accept that - if NI voted to remain within the SM/CU/aligned with the EU, that would reinforce NI's isolation from GB and increase the pressure for a United Ireland; and we already know that the demographics suggest there'll be a nationalist majority in about 5 years any how.

The DUP didn't vote for the deal May negotiated specifically to appease them. They won't vote for a deal unless it basically includes a hard border which the EU won't accept.

Ergo what the DUP wants is irrelevant, May will have to find the votes elsewhere.

briany

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

This is Charles Moore writing in The Spectator. You would think this is parody, but I can assure you it's not. This person often writes similar opinion pieces for The Telegrpah.

"What to do about the coming shortage of green groceries of which several supermarkets warned yet again this week if there is a no-deal Brexit on 29 March? I am just old enough to remember when fresh fruit and veg were in short supply at this time of year. People used to know how to store things to mitigate the problem: apples would be carefully laid out on straw-strewn shelves. We ate lots of root vegetables and not much greenery. If ever you saw a strawberry out of season it came, for some reason, from Israel. Perhaps it is time for a Brexit recipe book, like those comforting wartime rationing ones full of bright ideas for dull things. In our part of the south coast we have racier ideas. We have a centuries-old tradition of smuggling (‘brandy for the parson, baccy for the clerk’), and are ready to set out in our little ships to Dunkirk or wherever and bring back luscious black-market lettuces and French beans, oranges and lemons. Our Sussex and Kent smugglers used to be known as ‘free traders’, which is interesting and — if we have to sneak over an EU tariff wall — entirely appropriate for today."

I'd agree with much of what he wrote if it were an appeal to simple living, making do with less, and appreciating that many nice things we have are due to vast and complicated global logistics.

But he appears to be writing it in a 'Britain can take it!' way. This mentality seems to going around a fair bit in the UK. The trouble with adopting the Blitz Spirit in the face of potential shortages, is that many people talking about it have never been through it.

MPFGLB

10000maniacs wrote: »

Nobody would blame the Taoiseach for trying to string it out. He is sandwiched between a rock and a hard place not of his own making. O'Rourke did not make any derogatory remarks against Ireland, The Irish government, or Leo. Or any comments that could be perceived as such.

O Rourke called LV Arrogant and tetchy ...Not derogatory remarks about the Irish government ?

Coupled with what he said on the government stringing it out and needing to come clean about the border ?

On the Irish going to EU with the 'backstop gambit'

Neil : "Ireland are between a rock and a hard place" (on the backstop) . (NoT UK or even EU ..Ireland are ?)

IDS then went on to say on how UK were working well with Kenny but LV pushed the EU onto the backstop and "the idea of flexibility is literally a question for the Irish government ...to what degree are you prepared to be flexible about the nature of how the border works so you dont have a hard border ..its is wholly feasible to make it like that ...that was the original idea"

(Again the hard border issue is one for the Irish only)

To which O' Rourke goes on to talk about Kenny being twinkly but LV being techy and arrogant ??


No defense of the point that puts lack of flexibility squarely at the door of the Irish
As I said this whole piece did not support Irish position but had the opposite effect especially on bystanders and supported the idea that the Irish are being intransigent

RobMc59

briany wrote: »

I'd agree with much of what he wrote if it were an appeal to simple living, making do with less, and appreciating that many nice things we have are due to vast and complicated global logistics.

But he appears to be writing it in a 'Britain can take it!' way. This mentality seems to going around a fair bit in the UK. The trouble with adopting the Blitz Spirit in the face of potential shortages, is that many people talking about it have never been through it.

Why on earth would you take the meandering views of an Eton toff as the opinion of the general public in Britain?

Amprodude

May is a farce of a politician. She can't be taken seriously.

VinLieger

briany wrote: »

The trouble with adopting the Blitz Spirit in the face of potential shortages, is that many people talking about it have never been through it.

Also people were united in their resolve to get on with it because they all had a common external enemy.

Its not gonna be easy when remainers are being forced to live the blitz lifestyle and then also have to queue for food rations with brexiters who are the ones responsible.

The blitz spirit got everyone through because they were united. The uk currently couldnt be more divided.

Leroy42

MPFGLB wrote: »

IDS then went on to say on how UK were working well with Kenny but LV pushed the EU onto the backstop and "the idea of flexibility is literally a question for the Irish government ...to what degree are you prepared to be flexible about the nature of how the border works so you dont have a hard border ..its is wholly feasible to make it like that ...that was the original idea"

Great, so did IDS expand on what the plan for a outcome that doesn't involve a backstop would mean? Or did he simply leave it on the basis that he likes Kenny more.

BTW of course Kenny could afford to be more accommodating in his approach, he was trying to butter the UK up with nothing on the line. Christ on a bike, the fact that IDS and others cannot even understand that simple point.