Brexit Discussion Thread VI

Infini

downcow wrote: »

Help me with something. As a unionist living in NI and committed to peace and good relations with our southern neighbours. When people on here say ‘no hard border’ it implies there is some sort of soft border compromise that they would accept. What are the additional measures that you could contemplate that might help this over the line and help unionists accept passport control, checks, etc within our country eg Larne?

If there a good way to look at things it would be to basically step back and evaluate the worth of the union and wether as a unionist your getting a good deal or your being shafted by those with ulterior motives in Westminster. A united Ireland would not be the perfect solution for example but if one like yourself has a preference for the union then the best way to look at it is at what point is the union a worse deal than a UI because Brexit has the portential to do serious damage to NI.

If theres anything to look at this its how the likes of the DUP have acted purely on ideology rather than pragmatic facts and trying to get the best deal possible. Theyre also hypocrites saying they want to be treated no different than the rest of the UK until the likes of abortion and same sex marrige come along for example. Their position is also ridiculous as by supporting Brexit they made the UI issue come to the fore when it was suppressed beforhand and decades away.

The whole border issue is ultimately down to the UK not having any plan for leaving and repeatedly making a mess over and over and not knowing what it even wants. It probabky wont get sorted UNLESS A50 is cancelled before its too late because otherwise it turns into an utter mess that will take years to resolve if at all.

First Up

Unionists are motivated at least as much by dislike/hatred of the ROI as love of the UK - by a lot more in many cases.

After watching De Valera's Ireland, the dominance of the Catholic Church and the small matter of the IRA, its hard to blame them. It would need a lot more than a faster growing economy or feeling short changed by London to change their minds.

It isn't going to happen so we need to forget about it and put our energies into re-enforcing our position in Europe and maximising the opportunities. Let N.I work things out for itself.

road_high

First Up wrote: »

Unionists are motivated at least as much by dislike/hatred of the ROI as love of the UK - by a lot more in many cases.

After watching De Valera's Ireland, the dominance of the Catholic Church and the small matter of the IRA, its hard to blame them. It would need a lot more than a faster growing economy or feeling short changed by London to change their minds.

It isn't going to happen so we need to forget about it and put our energies into re-enforcing our position in Europe and maximising the opportunities. Let N.I work things out for itself.

Yes but they are only one half of the community in the north, it doesn’t mean we should abandon our nationalist kin in the north. We need to strengthen their role in this country further ie votes in some elections

First Up

First Up wrote: »

Unionists are motivated at least as much by dislike/hatred of the ROI as love of the UK - by a lot more in many cases.

After watching De Valera's Ireland, the dominance of the Catholic Church and the small matter of the IRA, its hard to blame them. It would need a lot more than a faster growing economy or feeling short changed by London to change their minds.

It isn't going to happen so we need to forget about it and put our energies into re-enforcing our position in Europe and maximising the opportunities. Let N.I work things out for itself.

The brilliant thing about the church's influence and "Home rule is Rome rule" is that NI is a lot more conservative than Ireland now. Hell the UK is more conservative the Ireland.

FrancieBrady

First Up wrote: »

Unionists are motivated at least as much by dislike/hatred of the ROI as love of the UK - by a lot more in many cases.

After watching De Valera's Ireland, the dominance of the Catholic Church and the small matter of the IRA, its hard to blame them. It would need a lot more than a faster growing economy or feeling short changed by London to change their minds.

It isn't going to happen so we need to forget about it and put our energies into re-enforcing our position in Europe and maximising the opportunities. Let N.I work things out for itself.

The problem with that is that northern Ireland will refuse to be 'forgotten'. That is the mistake Dublin made after partition.
Brexit will ensure that it won't be. Nationalists or those who identify as Irish, who live there will ensure it won't.
They are as entitled as unionists to choose the future that's best for them. And what happens if they choose a UI is enshrined in an international agreement, that WE in the south co-garunteed.

First Up

FrancieBrady wrote:

The problem with that is that northern Ireland will refuse to be 'forgotten'. That is the mistake Dublin made after partition. Brexit will ensure that it won't be. Nationalists or those who identify as Irish, who live there will ensure it won't. They are as entitled as unionists to choose the future that's best for them. And what happens if they choose a UI is enshrined in an international agreement, that WE in the south co-garunteed.

That's what the GFA is about. When nationalists can outvote the unionists they can take it further.

In the meantime......

bob mcbob

Now the Brexiteers' masks are beginning to slip.

For DD, JRM, Raab, etc, what this really is about is weakening EU standards on (environment, food, employment, etc).

"A six-day trip to the US by former Brexit secretary David Davis was partly funded by an American lobbying organisation that is alleged to favour weakening European Union regulations on environmental and food standards."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/us-agribusiness-lobbyists-paid-for-trip-by-david-davis

LeinsterDub

Strazdas wrote: »

Yes indeed. Several legal experts have pointed out that Scotland and Northern Ireland should by rights have had a veto over massive constitutional change like Brexit being imposed on them, but as you say, the 'United Kingdom' is a quite bizarre political entity (totally dominated by one country and one parliament).

Well that's the trouble when you don't get around to writing the thing down in a single unified place.

Infini

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The brilliant thing about the church's influence and "Home rule is Rome rule" is that NI is a lot more conservative than Ireland now. Hell the UK is more conservative the Ireland.

To put it in context as well the south was poorer while NI was prosperous a century ago when Unionism first came about. The irony is the opposite is now true the catholic church is as popular and as influential as a lead weight in no small part to the women bashing and the kiddy fiddling scandals while the south is richer and the north a basket case because of English mismanagement of their Northern territories

snowstorm445

This is the sort of attitude we’re up against. It’s these sorts of comments that make you hope it’s a hard Brexit. They entirely deserve what’s coming. https://mobile.twitter.com/patcondell/status/1076146151752192000

briany

snowstorm445 wrote: »

This is the sort of attitude we’re up against. It’s these sorts of comments that make you hope it’s a hard Brexit. They entirely deserve what’s coming. https://mobile.twitter.com/patcondell/status/1076146151752192000

I wouldn't focus in on this kind of sh*t-stirring without also stopping to consider whether how much of the overall UK population it represents. The amount of British people who are Brexit-aware, pro-Brexit, anti-EU and anti-Irish gives us a relatively small subset. Those people would deserve the hardship of a no-deal Brexit, if that is indeed what a no-deal would bring to the UK. For all the normal British people, though, not so much.

lawred2

snowstorm445 wrote: »

This is the sort of attitude we’re up against. It’s these sorts of comments that make you hope it’s a hard Brexit. They entirely deserve what’s coming. https://mobile.twitter.com/patcondell/status/1076146151752192000

That lad seems to have gotten favorable responses from a collection of people who appear to be Irish

briany

lawred2 wrote: »

That lad seems to have gotten favorable responses from a collection of people who appear to be Irish

First on the chain of comments is someone using the Twitter handle, "The One Ruler', and has a Celtic cross as an avatar. Wouldn't take a rocket scientist to see that someone like that is probably going to be anti-EU, and vehemently so. That's if it even is a person and not a troll.

Kermit.de.frog

snowstorm445 wrote: »

This is the sort of attitude we’re up against. It’s these sorts of comments that make you hope it’s a hard Brexit. They entirely deserve what’s coming. https://mobile.twitter.com/patcondell/status/1076146151752192000

Don't feed the trolls by posting links to tweets of absolute nobodies?

FrancieBrady

First Up wrote: »

That's what the GFA is about. When nationalists can outvote the unionists they can take it further.

In the meantime......

'In the meantime' we cannot 'forget' anything, which is what you were proposing.

An Ciarraioch

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'In the meantime' we cannot 'forget' anything, which is what you were proposing.

In the meantime, the best thing we can do for the North after Brexit is work to get Stormont restored, and leave the Border poll until there's consensus that the time is right for one.

FrancieBrady

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

In the meantime, the best thing we can do for the North after Brexit is work to get Stormont restored, and leave the Border poll until there's consensus that the time is right for one.

After Brexit we will have even less influence and those still waiting on rights, all others on these islands enjoy, will be even more vulnerable. If you think the DUP will behave like benign wallflowers after Brexit I think you are deluding yourself.
Their triumphalism alone will be seriously divisive.

UsedToWait

Guardian reporting:

A six-day trip to the US by former Brexit secretary David Davis was partly funded by an American lobbying organisation that is alleged to favour weakening European Union regulations on environmental and food standards.

The Oklahoma-based organisation, the E Foundation, paid £5,362 to Davis, who was accompanied by fellow Brexiter Owen Paterson on the trip last month. The organisation represents agricultural and energy interests.

The E Foundation attracted attention this year when undercover reporters from Greenpeace’s investigative unit, Unearthed, recorded its director saying that he aimed to raise thousands of dollars from US donors to campaign on Brexit

I know the forum rules are against just posting links, but there isn't much to add...


Edit: for background on these 'think tanks' / lobbyists, and their malign influence on Brexit, read Caroe Cadwalladr, and an excellent citizen journalist Facts Central (@StillDelvingH) on Twitter.

zapitastas

The whole episode with the drone and Gatwick inspires little confidence in the performance of all of this wonderful tech that is soon to come that will mean a frictionless border

dr.fuzzenstein

zapitastas wrote: »

The whole episode with the drone and Gatwick inspires little confidence in the performance of all of this wonderful tech that is soon to come that will mean a frictionless border

They'll use drones, no worries.

Capt'n Midnight

downcow wrote: »

Help me with something. As a unionist living in NI and committed to peace and good relations with our southern neighbours. When people on here say ‘no hard border’ it implies there is some sort of soft border compromise that they would accept. What are the additional measures that you could contemplate that might help this over the line and help unionists accept passport control, checks, etc within our country eg Larne?

Maybe you should check on what the rules are today.

Go to http://www.poferries.com/eu/cairnryan-larne/faqs
click on Do I need a passport? and you get referred to
We’re not the experts so it’s best to check with those in-the-know before you travel - https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control.


Meanwhile down here it's

British or Irish citizens travelling on our Irish Sea routes do not need a passport to travel to Britain or Ireland but are advised to take a form of identity. A driving licence, citizenship card or utility bill will usually suffice. A birth certificate will provide adequate proof of identity for your child to travel on our sailings.

Capt'n Midnight

Worrying UK economic news.
Industry has stopped investing. The Consumer is getting deeper in debt.
And it's worse than the economists polled predicted.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-economy/uk-economy-relies-on-stretched-consumers-as-brexit-hits-investment-idUSKCN1OK0W9

ONS statistician Rob Kent-Smith said households spent more than they received for an unprecedented eighth quarter in a row, raising questions about their ability to keep on spending and driving the country’s economy.

Borderhopper

seamus wrote: »

While a good half of the planet are leaving work with the intention of getting drunk, relaxing with family and forgetting about current affairs, the UK government has taken the opportunity to publish its healthcare plan in the event of a no-deal:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/brexit-operational-readiness-guidance-for-the-health-and-social-care-system-in-england

Choice section noted by a UK healthcare professional;


Loose lips sink ships, keep calm and carry on. And so forth.

Asking healthcare providers to be propaganda mouthpieces and assist in rationing medicines. Not because of war, but because of an entirely self-inflicted and voluntary scenario, which they could still avoid with the flick of a pen.

Agreed with NHS England. Brexit in a nutshell.

I posted earlier about how almost all hospital diagnostic materials are supplied from EU, and rely on JIT almost as much as the auntimotive industry. NHS Trusts in NI have been asked to stockpile at least 6 weeks of supplies, where a delivery usually covers 3 weeks and is in excess of £200,000 for each Trust, with every Trust in GB doing the same, it's both a massive financial burden for overstretched services and a supply problem- everyone will be chasing fewer and fewer reagents.

There's a sense of panic setting in the NHS, belatedly. Last week advice from above was that no change was necessary, this week staff from across the border have been advised "to leave earlier to avoid potential delays" and stockpile materials.

Rjd2

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Corbyn sticking to his guns regarding Brexit.

Ideally he would win an election and go back and get a better deal.

Strazdas

Corbyn, the hard Brexiteer. Just when you thought things couldn't get any more ridiculous :

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu

Ronan|Raven

Strazdas wrote: »

Corbyn, the hard Brexiteer. Just when you thought things couldn't get any more ridiculous :

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu

Christ.

Strazdas

Ronan|Raven wrote: »

Christ.

The EU wouldn't give this clown five minutes if that's his position. His strategy is virtually identical to that of May's, meaning there would be nothing to be discussed.

Leroy42

This is why I don't see a 2nd ref happening.

Just who is going to lead and support it? The Tories, as a party can't. Labour seem totally opposed. They are not going to work together.

The SNP and Lib Dems? No chance.

Strazdas

Leroy42 wrote: »

This is why I don't see a 2nd ref happening.

Just who is going to lead and support it? The Tories, as a party can't. Labour seem totally opposed. They are not going to work together.

The SNP and Lib Dems? No chance.

Corbyn is such a total liability that Labour would probably heavily lose a GE (incredible as that sounds).

Looks like we are back to seeing what it is that the Tories do next.

Rjd2

Strazdas wrote: »

Corbyn is such a total liability that Labour would probably heavily lose a GE (incredible as that sounds).

Looks like we are back to seeing what it is that the Tories do next.

Labour no matter the next leader will probably win the next election just due to how stale and awful the Tories are.

The concern its not the cert it should be that Corbyn will lead the next government, I make it 60-40 that he will. It should be much more comfortable than that.

Leroy42 wrote: »

This is why I don't see a 2nd ref happening.

Just who is going to lead and support it? The Tories, as a party can't. Labour seem totally opposed. They are not going to work together.

The SNP and Lib Dems? No chance.

I think its a case of hoping that the polls get so crap for Labour that Corbyn is forced into backing it. Its possible, but he is shown no sign of backing down whatsoever. The likes of Blair been so prominent when it comes to chatter about a second referendum probably hardens his resolve.