Brexit Discussion Thread VI

Sam Russell

downcow wrote: »

You’re missing the point. I am not holding the bus up as an example of brexiteer honesty. I am pointing out that both sides stretched the truth to its limit and the bus is an example of that.
And you are back again quoting net, the bus referred to gross

I think you are missing the fundamental question of the Brexit vote.

1. Those that voted remain voted for the status quo. That is they knew exactly what they were voting for.

2. Those that voted to leave voted against staying in the EU. Now they had no unified vision of what, if anything, they were voting FOR.

The lies told by the leave side were based on:

1. A fictitious amount of money remitted to the EU, (which was about 1% of the UK Gov spending). It was deliberately inflated, with no mention of the rebate, or the compensating cost required to duplicate the pooled EU agencies to function as a state in the world.

2. The bare faced lie about immigration being under the control of the EU, despite the lion's share of immigration for non-EU countries. The lack of using any valid restrictions allowed under EU rules.

3. The emotive line about 'taking back control of our laws and our borders' which turned out to be total BS. Turns out not one Brexiteer can identify one EU law that they want to take back, and now they want an open EU border in NI.

4. The racist push showing hoards of immigrants heading towards the UK, implying that Turkey was going to join the EU, and unleash huge numbers into the UK.

Any lies told by the Remain side were pointless since everyone knew what remain meant. No-one knew what Leave meant, because it meant all things to all people. It could mean whatever you wanted it to mean - pure populism.

No, Brexit was driven by lies, foreign money, Russian bots, illegal spending, and very dodgy people with hidden agendas.

Now we see a £14 million contract going to a £2 start up company to provide shipping services. The company was formed on 5 th April 2017, just one week after Article 50 was lodged. Wonder what is behind that?

Less than 90 days to go, and no-one knows what will happen.

FrancieBrady

listermint wrote: »

No point responding to this. The whole penchant is to spread disinformation in the guise of having a both sides discussion and then shout about echo chamber when people ignore them.

Its a tried and tested method and quite frankly it is backed by external forces. They sow the seeds and gormless people pick it up and continue it.

I have a good friend who has a form of Asperger's and spends their entire day promoting anti EU propaganda and pro russian information he holds Putin up as a strong man. Its these types of people that third party actors target .

I think it is as simple as regretful, but still proud Brexiteers trying to create an..'we was misled by both sides' scenario tbh.
Seeing a lot of it as more and more see the writing on the wall.

jochenstacker

downcow wrote: »

You’re missing the point. I am not holding the bus up as an example of brexiteer honesty. I am pointing out that both sides stretched the truth to its limit and the bus is an example of that.
And you are back again quoting net, the bus referred to gross

Well, please list examples of this truth stretching.
Because this just sounds like "I know you are, but what am I?"
In other words empty whataboutery.

Russman

Tell me how wrote: »

One guy said that most in the area he is in (near Stoke) think that the EU are being awkward and don't want them to leave but eventually they will get their way.
?

This is the bit that annoys me - the narrative that it’s the EU being awkward. How ? By not letting them keep all the upside of being a member of the EU and absolving them of any obligations ? It’s beyond arrogant.

jochenstacker

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think you are missing the fundamental question of the Brexit vote.

1. Those that voted remain voted for the status quo. That is they knew exactly what they were voting for.

2. Those that voted to leave voted against staying in the EU. Now they had no unified vision of what, if anything, they were voting FOR.

The lies told by the leave side were based on:

1. A fictitious amount of money remitted to the EU, (which was about 1% of the UK Gov spending). It was deliberately inflated, with no mention of the rebate, or the compensating cost required to duplicate the pooled EU agencies to function as a state in the world.

2. The bare faced lie about immigration being under the control of the EU, despite the lion's share of immigration for non-EU countries. The lack of using any valid restrictions allowed under EU rules.

3. The emotive line about 'taking back control of our laws and our borders' which turned out to be total BS. Turns out not one Brexiteer can identify one EU law that they want to take back, and now they want an open EU border in NI.

4. The racist push showing hoards of immigrants heading towards the UK, implying that Turkey was going to join the EU, and unleash huge numbers into the UK.

Any lies told by the Remain side were pointless since everyone knew what remain meant. No-one knew what Leave meant, because it meant all things to all people. It could mean whatever you wanted it to mean - pure populism.

No, Brexit was driven by lies, foreign money, Russian bots, illegal spending, and very dodgy people with hidden agendas.

Now we see a £14 million contract going to a £2 start up company to provide shipping services. The company was formed on 5 th April 2017, just one week after Article 50 was lodged. Wonder what is behind that?

Less than 90 days to go, and no-one knows what will happen.

downcow, I challenge you to reply to each of these points and refute them with evidence and sources.
I know you won't, because you've got absolutely nothing.
Empty vessels and all that.
We are all awaiting your reply, which I bet won't be forthcoming.
And the rest, I bet, will either be your usual Brexit hysteria or deafening silence.
You got nothing but bluster.

Tell me how

jochenstacker wrote: »

Well, please list examples of this truth stretching.
Because this just sounds like "I know you are, but what am I?"
In other words empty whataboutery.

The examples downcow was referring to (I think) included the claim that the EU economy would tank and there would be several 100,000 more unemployed within a short time after the referendum, if they voted to leave. This didn't happen.

I think that is the premise of their argument, but I also think they are taking it too far in implying that both sides are equally guilty.

It is fascinating to observe this over the last 2+ years. It is no different to a heated argument amongst a crowd of inlaws except it is happening on a national level.

However, to be clear on my position. While some remain advocates unquestionably have said things which have not happened in as literal a fashion as they suggested (because no one can predict the future!), the leave side have grossly overstated their arguments and this has been borne out in the difficulty in negotiating and the reaction of EU countries to the UK.

If this was a football match, one side have been caught offside a number of times, the other are going around making leg breaking tackles and trying to bribe the ref. The lies and spoofery is happening vastly more on one side.

CelticRambler

Gerry T wrote: »

... with the staggering inaccuracies in you post I think it would be more beneficial for you to go do some honest research.

Brexiteers only see what they want to see, no matter where honest research might lead them.

downcow wrote: »

This is fairly typical of the problem with the two sides in this debate and the blinkers they are wearing. You say “the hall was full of EU gold star flags”. Do me a favour and google images of it. Yeah sure there was a small group who brought Eu flags (note they are all together in a bunch and have exactly the same flag - coincidence I guess). To suggest the hall was full of Eu flags and the UK flag was missing - we’ll need I say more?

I suspect you're thinking of the 2018 Proms, for which Google is full of images such as you describe; I specifically referred to the (live) performance in 2016. Oh, and I didn't say the UK flag was missing, but that the EU flag was waved in such numbers to dominate the scene.

downcow wrote: »

You’re missing the point. I am not holding the bus up as an example of brexiteer honesty. I am pointing out that both sides stretched the truth to its limit and the bus is an example of that.
And you are back again quoting net, the bus referred to gross

And once again, in typical Brexiteer fashion, you are avoid answering direct questions put to you ... so I'll ask again: if you believe the truth was stretched to its limit by both sides, do you believe that the UK Government is right or wrong to make a momentus decision regarding the fate of the country based on an obviously very flawed process?

RobMc59

Gerry T wrote: »

No, NI is a special case because of the good Friday agreement. First the UK practically removed all border infrastructure/presence and allowed republicans feel like they live in a single ireland. ROI then changed it's constitution, by referendum removing it's legitimate claim to the territory of NI and in direct response to you both the UK and ROI govts allow any citizen of NI to hold a UK or Irish passport. Why would someone living in ni, that identifies as Irish, holding a Irish passport show any loyalty to the queen of an occupying country.

In your own post you mention that Ireland has no legitimate claim on the territory of NI so why do you mention an occupying country?In addition you mention the UK removing all border infrastructure and allowing republicans to feel like they live in a single Ireland(is`nt that a good thing?).
Obviously there are republicans in NI who would`nt show loyalty to the Queen which they are entitled to do-I realised I should have acknowledged that difference as soon as I posted last night and apologise for saying it in a thoughtless way.
I would like to see a UI and have discussed this before on thread V,is it reasonable to say Ireland would have to say they would like a UI and then the possibility of a referendum could be looked at?Would republican voters in the North vote and would it be an attractive proposition to the people of NI?Obviously brexit makes the future murky but there are pluses and minuses to both sides of the argument.

mickoneill31

Tell me how wrote: »

The examples downcow was referring to (I think) included the claim that the EU economy would tank and there would be several 100,000 more unemployed within a short time after the referendum, if they voted to leave. This didn't happen.

And they never seem to factor in that the BoE cut interest rates and boosted quatitative easing directly after the vote to bolster the economy. How much did that cost the UK?

Would these geniuses have preferred that the Bank of England did nothing so they could be proved right?

And the fact that sterling devalued pretty sharply after the vote. Good for some and disasterous for others.

I'm sure we've all seen the graphs showing how the UK was one of the fastest growing economies in the G7 and has managed to turn that around to be one of the slowest. OK so it hasn't dropped into a recession. This is actually a good thing. I'm sure most experts would rather that didn't happen rather than be proved right.

Saying the economy is going to go into recession and then see its growth rate reduce drastically but not to recession is not really in the same league as any of the lies on the Brexit side.

lawred2

RobMc59 wrote: »

In your own post you mention that Ireland has no legitimate claim on the territory of NI so why do you mention an occupying country?In addition you mention the UK removing all border infrastructure and allowing republicans to feel like they live in a single Ireland(is`nt that a good thing?).
Obviously there are republicans in NI who would`nt show loyalty to the Queen which they are entitled to do-I realised I should have acknowledged that difference as soon as I posted last night and apologise for saying it in a thoughtless way.
I would like to see a UI and have discussed this before on thread V,is it reasonable to say Ireland would have to say they would like a UI and then the possibility of a referendum could be looked at?Would republican voters in the North vote and would it be an attractive proposition to the people of NI?Obviously brexit makes the future murky but there are pluses and minuses to both sides of the argument.

Oh god

For those Irish identifying people resident in northern Ireland, the UK is very much an occupying country.

It's not that complicated really

downcow

jochenstacker wrote: »

downcow, I challenge you to reply to each of these points and refute them with evidence and sources.
I know you won't, because you've got absolutely nothing.
Empty vessels and all that.
We are all awaiting your reply, which I bet won't be forthcoming.
And the rest, I bet, will either be your usual Brexit hysteria or deafening silence.
You got nothing but bluster.

Here are are a few to get you going https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matthew-ellery/leave-lies-remainers-need_b_12191462.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=BPbFPOvL3LSNm1LFEA_-Zg

mickoneill31

downcow wrote: »

Here are are a few to get you going https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matthew-ellery/leave-lies-remainers-need_b_12191462.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=BPbFPOvL3LSNm1LFEA_-Zg

It'd probably be handier if you posted the list here of the ones that you think are correct and we can argue then.

He starts off by saying that the €350m on the side of the bus was true because it was the gross number and that the UK government could give this to the NHS if it wished. That's not a good start is it :P

The next "lie" is one that Tusk mentioned in an interview. I didn't think he was part of the UK campaign.

Then he rolls out the "World War 3" comment that Cameron never mentioned. It was Boris that brought up World War 3.

Have you any better links in your google search?

prawnsambo

downcow wrote: »

Here are are a few to get you going https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matthew-ellery/leave-lies-remainers-need_b_12191462.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=BPbFPOvL3LSNm1LFEA_-Zg

You've just linked a blog post full of uncorroborated statements about what people said, not posted as direct quotes or given a context. Yet the same blogger spent a paragraph trying to contextualise the brexit bus to make it look kinda true if you squint at it the right way.

So, just to take one of those 'lies': Companies have been moving out of the UK in droves. Edwin Hayward has a list on Twitter that keeps getting longer. 110 tweets long the last time I looked.

flatty

murphaph wrote: »

The fireworks would have been dictated by the London mayor's office I suspect and London is solidly anti Brexit.

The head of the display was interviewed on the news yesterday morning, and said specifically that they were going for an inclusive European theme (mentioned specifically)
London sees itself as a European capital being dragged out by the remainder of the country.
The blue rinse brigade may get their wishes (and I have not one iota of sympathy for ambro's mother in law, she can lie in the bed she helped to make), but it won't be long before the UK, or whatever its called or comprises, will be agitating for a rejoining vote.
They will have done themselves irredeemable harm in the meantime, but as long as their pensions are triple locked, the brexit core vote won't give a flying fxxk. The sooner they atrophy, the better.

EdgeCase

Fundementally what is happening in the UK is a democratic decision has been made but the public are under the impression that because they voted for something it cannot have consequences.

Leaving the EU is possible but economically and practically it has extremely serious consequences and some of those can't be mitigated against by government or EU policies and will have significant impacts on spending power, foreign and domestic investment by business, access to markets, personal freedoms and ultimately people's day to day lives.

There's nothing wrong with the concept of voting to leave. It's just that leaving isn't going to be smooth and that's just the reality of it.

You are absolutely free to make that choice. The EU has facilitated it and has actually done nothing at all to prevent the UK from leaving. It has outlined the risks and it has tried to mitigate many of them, but that's all it's done.

I mean it hasn't even really expressed annoyance. It's been more a "oh well. Best of luck with that. We'll still be friends!" type of message even though the UK media keeps twisting that into some kind of ridiculous notion of imagined fuming authoritarian figures plotting in Brussels.

There's a sense of disappointment and bewilderment and a notion that we now need to make contingencies to mitigate the impact on the reminder of the EU, but that's about it.

Meanwhile the UK has acted like a spoilt brat footballer who has just stormed off in a huff ranting about its awful teammates and how its club is the worst ever and how it will now make a career as a pop star and setup military bases in Singapore and the Caribbean to show the world how important it is.

Folkstonian

flatty wrote: »

The head of the display was interviewed on the news yesterday morning, and said specifically that they were going for an inclusive European theme (mentioned specifically)
London sees itself as a European capital being dragged out by the remainder of the country.
The blue rinse brigade may get their wishes (and I have not one iota of sympathy for ambro's mother in law, she can lie in the bed she helped to make), but it won't be long before the UK, or whatever its called or comprises, will be agitating for a rejoining vote.
They will have done themselves irredeemable harm in the meantime, but as long as their pensions are triple locked, the brexit core vote won't give a flying fxxk. The sooner they atrophy, the better.

I don’t care what anybody’s politics are as long as they are polite and respectful in debate and this thread on the whole has been good on that respect;

But to say something like you have in your last sentence, you have to be one vicious c*nt. I hope the moderators ban you for that.

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

Here are are a few to get you going https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matthew-ellery/leave-lies-remainers-need_b_12191462.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=BPbFPOvL3LSNm1LFEA_-Zg

So you couldn't find impartial sources, only one blog post from a Brexiteer (Matthew Ellery is a Research Executive at eurosceptic campaign group Get Britain Out).
Come on, please try harder!

downcow

Tell me what you guys think people of UK should do.
They have had the biggest vote in history which said they want to leave the Eu.
Are you guys really suggesting that is ignored?
Eu are pissing off many nations with their arrogance and lack of democracy.
I will be honest. I would hate to see us stay now (given the way Eu is behaving) and then find out a few years down the line that a few other nations has had the balls to actually leave.
I like European people, love visiting European countries, liked the concept of the common market, love the diversity of foreign nationals from Eu and rest of world living and working amongst us but I’m afraid I have had too much of Eu arrogance.
Advise me what we should do.
My thought is that we should negotiate right to the wire to get best deal possible. (I think that is maybe what we are doing).

prawnsambo

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So you couldn't find impartial sources, only one blog post from a Brexiteer (Matthew Ellery is a Research Executive at eurosceptic campaign group Get Britain Out).
Come on, please try harder!

Don't forget brexit central and ukip.



But it's a pathetic piece of bloggery. No direct quotes or references and therefore absolutely valueless. Surprised that HuffPost would publish such tripe.

Folkstonian

EdgeCase wrote: »

Fundementally what is happening in the UK is a democratic decision has been made but the public are under the impression that because they voted for something it cannot have consequences.

Leaving the EU is possible but economically and practically it has extremely serious consequences and some of those can't be mitigated against by government or EU policies and will have significant impacts on spending power, foreign and domestic investment by business, access to markets, personal freedoms and ultimately people's day to day lives.

There's nothing wrong with the concept of voting to leave. It's just that leaving isn't going to be smooth and that's just the reality of it.

You are absolutely free to make that choice. The EU has facilitated it and has actually done nothing at all to prevent the UK from leaving. It has outlined the risks and it has tried to mitigate many of them, but that's all it's done.

I mean it hasn't even really expressed annoyance. It's been more a "oh well. Best of luck with that. We'll still be friends!" type of message even though the UK media keeps twisting that into some kind of ridiculous notion of imagined fuming authoritarian figures plotting in Brussels.

There's a sense of disappointment and bewilderment and a notion that we now need to make contingencies to mitigate the impact on the reminder of the EU, but that's about it.

Meanwhile the UK has acted like a spoilt brat footballer who has just stormed off in a huff ranting about its awful teammates and how its club is the worst ever and how it will now make a career as a pop star and setup military bases in Singapore and the Caribbean to show the world how important it is.

Versions of this post are quite frequent but I do think they miss a fundamental point.

Among ardent Brexit supporters, you rarely hear of people who want to leave but do not want to accept the economic consequence of that decision.

Most, for one reason or another, either they underestimate the hit to the economy as a result of Brexit or they simply see leaving as such an big thing in and of itself that any of the fallout is irrelevant, want to see this thing done without compromise.

The push back is coming from the Europhiles and the people who see the practical benefits to being in the EU, and want to drop the anchors on the whole endeavour.

People are very split on the issue, but mostly in my experience convinced of the virtues of their position, whichever side of the fence they are on

prawnsambo

downcow wrote: »

Tell me what you guys think people of UK should do.
They have had the biggest vote in history which said they want to leave the Eu.
Are you guys really suggesting that is ignored.
Eu are pissing off many nations with their arrogance and lack of democracy.

Explain this please. Especially the democracy bit.

Calina

downcow wrote: »

Tell me what you guys think people of UK should do.
They have had the biggest vote in history which said they want to leave the Eu.
Are you guys really suggesting that is ignored?
Eu are pissing off many nations with their arrogance and lack of democracy.
I will be honest. I would hate to see us stay now (given the way Eu is behaving) and then find out a few years down the line that a few other nations has had the balls to actually leave.
I like European people, love visiting European countries, liked the concept of the common market, love the diversity of foreign nationals from Eu and rest of world living and working amongst us but I’m afraid I have had too much of Eu arrogance.
Advise me what we should do.
My thought is that we should negotiate right to the wire to get best deal possible. (I think that is maybe what we are doing).

Before you whinge about EU arrogance maybe consider UK arrogance. Stop assuming other countries have to get you out of the hole you have dug for yourself. Start being honest about the consequences. Stop pretending Brits will take the jobs foreigners do.

But stop accusing other countries and organisations of being arrogant just because they won't protect you frim the consequences of your own decisions.

Brexit is a UK decision. Own it. And own its consequences.

mickoneill31

downcow wrote: »

Tell me what you guys think people of UK should do.
They have had the biggest vote in history which said they want to leave the Eu.
Are you guys really suggesting that is ignored?
Eu are pissing off many nations with their arrogance and lack of democracy.
I will be honest. I would hate to see us stay now (given the way Eu is behaving) and then find out a few years down the line that a few other nations has had the balls to actually leave.
I like European people, love visiting European countries, liked the concept of the common market, love the diversity of foreign nationals from Eu and rest of world living and working amongst us but I’m afraid I have had too much of Eu arrogance.
Advise me what we should do.
My thought is that we should negotiate right to the wire to get best deal possible. (I think that is maybe what we are doing).

We can't suggest what the UK does. The referendum was run on lies and we know that there were illegalities in it.

If you made a decision based on lies and illegal practices and you could see that the decision was going to cause you harm would you continue on with it because you didn't want to change your mind.

Edit: And as for the EU arrogance, have you seen the UK news any day over the last two years. Glass houses and all that.

A Dub in Glasgo

downcow wrote: »

Here are are a few to get you going https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matthew-ellery/leave-lies-remainers-need_b_12191462.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=BPbFPOvL3LSNm1LFEA_-Zg

Did you write that blog?

A Dub in Glasgo

downcow wrote: »

Tell me what you guys think people of UK should do.
They have had the biggest vote in history which said they want to leave the Eu.
Are you guys really suggesting that is ignored?
Eu are pissing off many nations with their arrogance and lack of democracy.
I will be honest. I would hate to see us stay now (given the way Eu is behaving) and then find out a few years down the line that a few other nations has had the balls to actually leave.
I like European people, love visiting European countries, liked the concept of the common market, love the diversity of foreign nationals from Eu and rest of world living and working amongst us but I’m afraid I have had too much of Eu arrogance.
Advise me what we should do.
My thought is that we should negotiate right to the wire to get best deal possible. (I think that is maybe what we are doing).

Parliament to revoke Article 50

Some examples of the EU arrogance and lack of democracy would be a start

ancapailldorcha

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Did you write that blog?

Stop with the personal stuff please.

Strazdas

EdgeCase wrote: »

Fundementally what is happening in the UK is a democratic decision has been made but the public are under the impression that because they voted for something it cannot have consequences.

Leaving the EU is possible but economically and practically it has extremely serious consequences and some of those can't be mitigated against by government or EU policies and will have significant impacts on spending power, foreign and domestic investment by business, access to markets, personal freedoms and ultimately people's day to day lives.

There's nothing wrong with the concept of voting to leave. It's just that leaving isn't going to be smooth and that's just the reality of it.

You are absolutely free to make that choice. The EU has facilitated it and has actually done nothing at all to prevent the UK from leaving. It has outlined the risks and it has tried to mitigate many of them, but that's all it's done.

I mean it hasn't even really expressed annoyance. It's been more a "oh well. Best of luck with that. We'll still be friends!" type of message even though the UK media keeps twisting that into some kind of ridiculous notion of imagined fuming authoritarian figures plotting in Brussels.

There's a sense of disappointment and bewilderment and a notion that we now need to make contingencies to mitigate the impact on the reminder of the EU, but that's about it.

Meanwhile the UK has acted like a spoilt brat footballer who has just stormed off in a huff ranting about its awful teammates and how its club is the worst ever and how it will now make a career as a pop star and setup military bases in Singapore and the Caribbean to show the world how important it is.

Absolutely correct. They voted for a vague, abstract concept ('leaving the EU') written on a piece of paper, not an actual plan.

The referendum itself was the problem of course. Personally I think the whole thing was doomed to failure from day one. If a country wanted to leave the EU, doing it the way the UK are attempting would not be recommended.

EdgeCase

Folkstonian wrote: »

Versions of this post are quite frequent but I do think they miss a fundamental point.

Among ardent Brexit supporters, you rarely hear of people who want to leave but do not want to accept the economic consequence of that decision.

Most, for one reason or another, either they underestimate the hit to the economy as a result of Brexit or they simply see leaving as such an big thing in and of itself that any of the fallout is irrelevant, want to see this thing done without compromise.

The push back is coming from the Europhiles and the people who see the practical benefits to being in the EU, and want to drop the anchors on the whole endeavour.

People are very split on the issue, but mostly in my experience convinced of the virtues of their position, whichever side of the fence they are on

Well if they do accept there are economic consequences (and some do, particularly the types tho seem to be nostalgic about simpler times) then they will be quite ok with a recession or even depression as it will all have been worth it for lack of membership of a voluntary multilateral organisation.

However, and this is just based on my reading of what was promised, most of them are expecting either no change or a post Brexit boom. They were also promised a lot of extra public spending on healthcare and so on and I'm not really seeing how that's going to be deliverable.

So I think you're headed for a clash between reality and wishes and I'm not entirely sure that the vast majority of the UK public will appreciate the fact that they may have to go through significant haddhjo to deliver an ideology.

Lemming

flatty wrote: »

They will have done themselves irredeemable harm in the meantime, but as long as their pensions are triple locked, the brexit core vote won't give a flying fxxk. The sooner they atrophy, the better.

Folkstonian wrote: »

...

Most, for one reason or another, either they underestimate the hit to the economy as a result of Brexit or they simply see leaving as such an big thing in and of itself that any of the fallout is irrelevant, want to see this thing done without compromise.

The push back is coming from the Europhiles and the people who see the practical benefits to being in the EU, and want to drop the anchors on the whole endeavour.

There is a strong element of truth - unsympathetic & brutal in its simplicity - to flatty's comment above that you took strong dislike to Folkstonian. If you cast your mind back to the infamous "Other family members losing their jobs will be a price worth paying for Brexit" poll question. 39% of leave voters backed that opinion, but the breakdown by age groups is far more interesting. From yougov.uk (Bold emphasis is mine in the below citation)

Older Leave voters are significantly more willing than their younger counterparts to see the country, themselves and their families be economically compromised in order to achieve Brexit. Whereas 46% of 18-24 year old Leave voters say significant damage to the economy is a price worth paying for Brexit, this figure increases with every subsequent age group to 71% of 65+ year old Leave voters.

Likewise, when the cost of Brexit would be themselves or members of their family losing their job, the proportion willing to pay that price rose each age group from 25% of 18-24 year old Leave voters to 50% of 65+ year old Leave voters.

The above citation smacks of self-entitled "I'm alright jack". Triple-locked pensions are only something that most of *any* country's workforce could dream of, so yes a lot of older people believe themselves shielded from the folly of their decision and anyone else younger will be alright because "they're young; they'll bounce back". It's outright selfish c*ntery of the most odious proportions.

Nody

downcow wrote: »

Tell me what you guys think people of UK should do.
They have had the biggest vote in history which said they want to leave the Eu.
Are you guys really suggesting that is ignored?
Eu are pissing off many nations with their arrogance and lack of democracy.
I will be honest. I would hate to see us stay now (given the way Eu is behaving) and then find out a few years down the line that a few other nations has had the balls to actually leave.
I like European people, love visiting European countries, liked the concept of the common market, love the diversity of foreign nationals from Eu and rest of world living and working amongst us but I’m afraid I have had too much of Eu arrogance.
Advise me what we should do.
My thought is that we should negotiate right to the wire to get best deal possible. (I think that is maybe what we are doing).

Care to actually answer any of the previous questions placed to you instead of trying to once again run to a different topic to avoid having to actually answer and provide actual facts to back up your claims?

As for what UK should do; brace itself for a world of butt hurt because you're about to find out just how little UK matters in the scheme of things these days. The losses of investments, jobs and general growth over the next decade will be the best medicine you'll ever get though it will take probably 10 years before you realize how badly things got ****ed up. Once you've grown up as a nation in about 15+ years and matured to the point of actually being able to have a rational fact based discussion you're welcome to apply to rejoin the biggest trade block on earth. We'll even not hold Brexit against you but you will of course lose your special status and deals you enjoy today and we will welcome back a rational partner to the union once again. Oh and don't come complaining on 30th March when things goes wrong; you were warned well before your vote on what would happen and what will happen is simply the consequences of your decision to hand in the A50. And as a side note a deal was never promised on the vote paper so why are you complaining about it not being done and EU "being arrogant"? EU has agreed you're leaving exactly 2 years after you handed in the notice as per the agreement; heck UK could leave tomorrow if they wanted to but they wanted to negotiate a deal to minimize the impact. EU has offered the deal that's now on the paper and you're running around whining it's not good enough; sorry but did you see the exact type of deal you were going to get? No? So why are you complaining then; you get exactly what you want which is leaving on 29th March as you voted for; now suck up the consequences and smile at your newly regained power to write your own laws; of course you never lost it but hey who cares about facts when we can do feelings instead?