Brexit Discussion Thread VI

cryptocurrency

prawnsambo wrote: »

If you think the Russians aren't involved in trying to undermine elections in the world, you have your head deeply buried in the sand. It's not even circumstantial evidence now, there is direct evidence piling up. They're not even subtle about it.

The EU is one of Putin's biggest bogeymen. Sanctions, legislation and action on offshore accounts and money laundering. He's finding it harder and harder to protect his ill-gotten gains.

Didn't they say the Russians spent $80k on Facebook and won the presidency, $80k to win the presidency..that easy.

Think they said $40k won the Brexit vote despite international interference from Obama saying about being bottom of the Q, the government spending £10 million posting every single home in the nation that they should vote to remain and a coordinated media campaign warning of the EU cutting off medical supplies, cheese, water, planes, more cheese, the internet, Xfactor and Stella Artois.

Yeah sure Russia is all over it, they are that good that if they pumped in another $278 into Peter Casey he'd now be president.

cryptocurrency

prawnsambo wrote: »

This is just so much nonsense. You have said exactly zero here. Just dogma and propaganda. Tell me of this socialist/communist stuff that the EU 'creeps' into deals. Are you actually expecting me to take this stuff seriously?

You don't think they are quite protectionist? The Americans seem to think so esp when trying to sell them agri products.

Strazdas

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The EU doesn't stand for openness at all in economic terms and many of your ideas for consumer protection is just corporate communism by stealth by closing barriers to entry for many industries for most of the subjects of the EU.
If the EU is so good for workers why is it that the average EU subjects life is not improving like say these from Asia where real markets are happening.

How come the UK is the only member state having this furious debate about the numerous failings of the EU? Go to any of the other 27 countries and virtually nobody is even discussing the EU, certainly not to the point where it is dominating their politics.

It suggests to the Brexiteers and the British press are merely using the EU as a scapegoat for all their own domestic problems.

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Didn't they say the Russians spent $80k on Facebook and won the presidency, $80k to win the presidency..that easy.

Think they said $40k won the Brexit vote despite international interference from Obama saying about being bottom of the Q, the government spending £10 million posting every single home in the nation that they should vote to remain and a coordinated media campaign warning of the EU cutting off medical supplies, cheese, water, planes, more cheese, the internet, Xfactor and Stella Artois.

Yeah sure Russia is all over it, they are that good that if they pumped in another $278 into Peter Casey he'd now be president.

No, they didn't. There's $100 million alone that went through the NRA. Still not accounted for. Or the £8 million that Arron Banks filtered into Leave.eu which still doesn't match up to its supposed source.

And that's just for starters. Nobody knows how much Cambridge Analytica spent in man hours on both campaigns, because they are gone. But the Canadians are still digging and of course Mueller.

You haven't a clue mate.

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

You don't think they are quite protectionist? The Americans seem to think so esp when trying to sell them agri products.

Are you confused? What's socialist or communist about protectionism?

road_high

Strazdas wrote: »

How come the UK is the only member state having this furious debate about the numerous failings of the EU? Go to any of the other 27 countries and virtually nobody is even discussing the EU, certainly not to the point where it is dominating their politics.

It suggests to the Brexiteers and the British press are merely using the EU as a scapegoat for all their own domestic problems.

The EU has virtually no negative day to day impacts on anyone’s lives- it’s made everything easier and more streamlined, particularly with regards to trade and travel- things my generation hardly notice as we grew up with them- no deal will be a rude awakening for UK citizens but I think it’s what the turnips need badly- inconvenient travel, restricted and more expensive trade etc etc. Then and only then they “might” come around to stop being such childish idiots.
You didn’t hear the same whining in other EU countries have we’ve all bought into the benefits long ago. The only ones you hear advocating leaving are a lunatic fringe opposed to everything

Imreoir2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The EU doesn't stand for openness at all in economic terms and many of your ideas for consumer protection is just corporate communism by stealth by closing barriers to entry for many industries for most of the subjects of the EU.
If the EU is so good for workers why is it that the average EU subjects life is not improving like say these from Asia where real markets are happening.

Poor countries grow faster than rich ones. EU member states are some of the richest in the world, their growth is sluggish compared to emerging economies because the emerging economies are playing catch up. EU economies are not playing catch up, they are already at the top. A dirt poor country can see 50-100% growth in a decade and still be dirt poor. A wealthy country can see 8-10% growth in a decade and still be on top of the pile in terms of wealth.

Living standards in poor countries can take significant strides forward while EU living standards do not take significant strides forward, because EU living standards are already miles ahead. Getting electricity and indoor plumbing is a transformation in some parts of the world, its taken for granted in the EU.

An Ciarraioch

Strazdas wrote: »

How come the UK is the only member state having this furious debate about the numerous failings of the EU? Go to any of the other 27 countries and virtually nobody is even discussing the EU, certainly not to the point where it is dominating their politics.

It suggests to the Brexiteers and the British press are merely using the EU as a scapegoat for all their own domestic problems.

TBF Greece, France, Holland, Italy and others do regularly debate the various weaknesses of the EU, but acknowledge that reform only comes about through collective effort, and can't be attempted at a national level.

cryptocurrency

prawnsambo wrote: »

No, they didn't. There's $100 million alone that went through the NRA. Still not accounted for. Or the £8 million that Arron Banks filtered into Leave.eu which still doesn't match up to its supposed source.

And that's just for starters. Nobody knows how much Cambridge Analytica spent in man hours on both campaigns, because they are gone. But the Canadians are still digging and of course Mueller.

You haven't a clue mate.

Ok lets look at your figures. Even if 10% of the NRA funding was from Russian or
Ugandans it is absolutely tiny in American politics, you still have no proof except all undeclared funds equals Russians. Believe it or not, the NRA is very popular...and trump won.

Same for leave.eu, which still seems very active and well supported now so they are either still funded by Russians or believe it or not leave.eu has huge national support and 8 million would be around 40p from each voter or more likely a smaller amount of bigger donations. The way the left, remainers and so-called progressives behave there is a stronger chance that many brexit supporters don't declare donations for fear of attack, both online and in real life or be called racist without evidence. They are clearly many in the ranks who are dangerous and vicious.

Peter Casey didn't get even $1 dollar from Russians i suspect.

road_high

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

TBF Greece, France, Holland, Italy and others do regularly debate the various weaknesses of the EU, but acknowledge that reform only comes about through collective effort, and can't be attempted at a national level.

They debate as some do here but leaving isn’t really on the mainstream radar as it’s so non sensical given the way we are so interwoven with trade and regs now.

Nody

cryptocurrency wrote: »

You don't think they are quite protectionist? The Americans seem to think so esp when trying to sell them agri products.

Funny that; the country of free trade don't appear to have a problem slapping on for example 25% duty on truck imports and even more odd every single car and truck imported has to comply with US standards. Who'd have thought that if US wants to export products to another country they have to comply with said countries standards instead of their own? It's like different countries have different standards or something...

Topgear on Dave

cryptocurrency wrote: »

If the EU is so good for workers why is it that the average EU subjects life is not improving like say these from Asia where real markets are happening.

I actually worked in a Asia quite a bit in the last few years.

In general terms of worker quality of life, work safety, working hours and workers rights we are far far better off here in Ireland.

It's vastly underappreciated by people who have never experienced anything else.

cryptocurrency

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

TBF Greece, France, Holland, Italy and others do regularly debate the various weaknesses of the EU, but acknowledge that reform only comes about through collective effort, and can't be attempted at a national level.

All we hear is "the EU needs reform" and nothing happens. I would like to hear from EU supporters what reforms they want.

I would like to see the EU put an EU army to a referendum in every member state, same for federalisation, tax harmonization, free movement and migrant quotas.

Each state with each have an individual referendum on each topic.

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Ok lets look at your figures. Even if 10% of the NRA funding was from Russian or
Ugandans it is absolutely tiny in American politics, you still have no proof except all undeclared funds equals Russians. Believe it or not, the NRA is very popular...and trump won.

Same for leave.eu, which still seems very active and well supported now so they are either still funded by Russians or believe it or not leave.eu has huge national support and 8 million would be around 40p from each voter or more likely a smaller amount of bigger donations. The way the left, remainers and so-called progressives behave there is a stronger chance that many brexit supporters don't declare donations for fear of attack, both online and in real life or be called racist without evidence. They are clearly many in the ranks who are dangerous and vicious.

Peter Casey didn't get even $1 dollar from Russians i suspect.

It doesn't matter? At what point does it matter when a foreign country tries to influence your elections? Have you a number in mind?

I suspect you're the only one with this point of view. The US have an investigation going for two years, the UK have belatedly decided to investigate at criminal level, the Canadians have been investigating for a year. I think that would influence my thinking on this more than a random propaganda spouter on an anonymous internet forum. Especially one who seems to eschew fact based reasoning.

Nody

cryptocurrency wrote: »

All we hear is "the EU needs reform" and nothing happens. I would like to hear from EU supporters what reforms they want.

I would like to see the EU put an EU army to a referendum in every member state, same for federalisation, tax harmonization, free movement and migrant quotas.

Each state with each have an individual referendum on each topic.

Sorry to burst your bubble here but EU don't have such authority in the first place; you know the whole part about how it's governed by a parliament voted in by the people in the countries and their countries PM (or equivalent) etc. That's known as democracy; I know it's a foreign concept but EU can provide you plenty of examples on how it works in practice inc. things such as public tender, public input on law suggestions etc. where instead of ala UK style of "We do what we want until a court tells us we can't" style of democracy.

cryptocurrency

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I actually worked in a Asia quite a bit in the last few years.

In general terms of worker quality of life, work safety, working hours and workers rights we are far far better off here in Ireland.

It's vastly underappreciated by people who have never experienced anything else.

They also socialised private debt on its citizens at virtual gunpoint from the EU

road_high

cryptocurrency wrote: »

You don't think they are quite protectionist? The Americans seem to think so esp when trying to sell them agri products.

The EU member states rightly have a consensus and policy to support local food production- for social, environmental and food security reasons. We rightly agree a very high standard of food production that is more expensive than the much lower US ones- hence free trade here wouldn’t be a level playing field- it’s up to the USA and others to come up to our standards if they wish to trade on the same terms.
If I was a UK or NI farmer right now I’d be very worried at the lowering of standards which is going to see a lot of them out if business and uk food security scattered to the corners of the globe.

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

All we hear is "the EU needs reform" and nothing happens. I would like to hear from EU supporters what reforms they want.

I would like to see the EU put an EU army to a referendum in every member state, same for federalisation, tax harmonization, free movement and migrant quotas.

Each state with each have an individual referendum on each topic.

And here in a nutshell is your understanding of what the EU is and how it works.

1st dalkey dalkey

cryptocurrency wrote: »

All we hear is "the EU needs reform" and nothing happens. I would like to hear from EU supporters what reforms they want.

I would like to see the EU put an EU army to a referendum in every member state, same for federalisation, tax harmonization, free movement and migrant quotas.

Each state with each have an individual referendum on each topic.

Of course you would.

The Brit approach to everything, divide and conquer.

Look, you voted leave. Just leave.
You are not obliged to accept the deal offered. If you don't want it just say so and leave.
We wont be in any way upset. At this stage it would be quite the contrary.

cryptocurrency

Nody wrote: »

Sorry to burst your bubble here but EU don't have such authority in the first place; you know the whole part about how it's governed by a parliament voted in by the people in the countries and their countries PM (or equivalent) etc. That's known as democracy; I know it's a foreign concept but EU can provide you plenty of examples on how it works in practice inc. things such as public tender, public input on law suggestions etc. where instead of ala UK style of "We do what we want until a court tells us we can't" style of democracy.

nobody in Europe resonates with these EU leaders. People have woken up now and will vote for eurosceptic parties this May. I would personally recommend everyone vote this way to ensure that we don't see the likes of Tusk, Barnier or Vosth again. That is why they are so worried about and are setting up the Russian bait now.

cryptocurrency

prawnsambo wrote: »

And here in a nutshell is your understanding of what the EU is and how it works.

I don't like how it works. I actually despise it.

cryptocurrency

prawnsambo wrote: »

It doesn't matter? At what point does it matter when a foreign country tries to influence your elections? Have you a number in mind?

I suspect you're the only one with this point of view. The US have an investigation going for two years, the UK have belatedly decided to investigate at criminal level, the Canadians have been investigating for a year. I think that would influence my thinking on this more than a random propaganda spouter on an anonymous internet forum. Especially one who seems to eschew fact based reasoning.

Western governments have been interfering in international elections for centuries, and very much so in the modern world using subtle modern means. On a 50 fold scale...please tell me you are aware of this???????

Christy42

cryptocurrency wrote: »

All we hear is "the EU needs reform" and nothing happens. I would like to hear from EU supporters what reforms they want.

I would like to see the EU put an EU army to a referendum in every member state, same for federalisation, tax harmonization, free movement and migrant quotas.

Each state with each have an individual referendum on each topic.

That would paralyze a lot of the countries involved. It would make negotations very tough as no one would have the right to speak for their side and make promises.

Should the countries involved have a referendum on every issue their government makes? If the Irish government makes a decision on migrant quotas while sitting with opposition parties should that have a different way to come into law than if they made the same decision while discussing it with EU colleagues instead?

Should each and every point of NAFTA be put to the US, Mexican and Canadians as a separate referendum?

The issue is with these points is that not every point will suit every country. Having a referendum on free movement separate from the single market is like deciding you want the chocolate bar but wanting to make your own decision on whether or not to pay the shop.

Are you an advocate for direct democracy over all major decisions in UK even after leaving for instance or is this just an EU requirement?

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I don't like how it works. I actually despise it.

Well since 'how it works' is a fantasy of your own making, you have full control over that.

Zubeneschamali

downcow wrote: »

Advise me what we should do.
My thought is that we should negotiate right to the wire to get best deal possible. (I think that is maybe what we are doing).

Hold another referendum, remain in the EU, and pretend the whole thing was an embarrassing mistake that should never be spoken of again like the time your gran had too many sherries.

cryptocurrency

Christy42 wrote: »

That would paralyze a lot of the countries involved. It would make negotations very tough as no one would have the right to speak for their side and make promises.

Should the countries involved have a referendum on every issue their government makes? If the Irish government makes a decision on migrant quotas while sitting with opposition parties should that have a different way to come into law than if they made the same decision while discussing it with EU colleagues instead?

Should each and every point of NAFTA be put to the US, Mexican and Canadians as a separate referendum?

The issue is with these points is that not every point will suit every country. Having a referendum on free movement separate from the single market is like deciding you want the chocolate bar but wanting to make your own decision on whether or not to pay the shop.

Are you an advocate for direct democracy over all major decisions in UK even after leaving for instance or is this just an EU requirement?

The issues i raised are sovereignty issues, and none of which are actually in the interest of the EU subjects. I suspect that will be blocked, and rightfully by London and Washington at all costs.

Nody

cryptocurrency wrote: »

nobody in Europe resonates with these EU leaders. People have woken up now and will vote for eurosceptic parties this May. I would personally recommend everyone vote this way to ensure that we don't see the likes of Tusk, Barnier or Vosth again. That is why they are so worried about and are setting up the Russian bait now.

Sure; same tune as when Brexit happened and all these countries that were going to rise up with UK and leave. Exactly how many countries joined UK again; can you remind me? Denmark? Finland? Belgium? Portugal? Italy? France? Greece? Oh right... And Italy was going to run once they elected their right wing parties as well and well, ouch.

Your echo chamber propaganda is nice and all but it's only hot air at this stage. You may hate EU, good for you, rest of Europe don't so don't let the door hit you on the way out and we'll speak once you've grown up in 15 years time. You think it will be a brilliant time for UK; somehow the rest of the world thinks you're all wrong but hey go ahead and prove us all wrong with your brilliant detailed action plan. Because you do have something beyond empty visions and metaphors right? You do have a plan you can share on how this will be achieved; this new global UK vision of yours, no? I mean you can't all be hot air and meaningless soundbites after all. So please, go ahead and share the details how UK are going to conquer the world out there; do go ahead.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The issues i raised are sovereignty issues, and none of which are actually in the interest of the EU subjects. I suspect that will be blocked, and rightfully by London and Washington at all costs.

You keep repeating that; yet UK once out of EU is likely to drop well below both France and Germany in GDP etc. US under Trump has lost any international respect and has done a great deal to ensure countries do strike deals exactly to counteract USA. See for example the EU - Japan deal etc. So once again keep thinking that UK matters and that US gives a damn about the UK and that UK has a "special relationship" with US; the reality is US sees UK as a good slave to push around as needed but that's about as far as the "special relationship" goes and UK politicians keep lapping it up saying thank you master. Talk about lack of sovereignty when your own government does not even dare to speak up about the fact their "partner" is leaking secret information to the press via twitter and assisting the Russians in doing so that have murdered people in their country.

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Western governments have been interfering in international elections for centuries, and very much so in the modern world using subtle modern means. On a 50 fold scale...please tell me you are aware of this???????

I don't indulge people in their whataboutery. Either address the issue as posed or don't bother. I can draw my own conclusions either way.

cryptocurrency

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Hold another referendum, remain in the EU, and pretend the whole thing was an embarrassing mistake that should never be spoken of again like the time your gran had too many sherries.

The UK can't remain now, at any cost. The EU have shown their colours and the ultimate humiliation would be to go back to them now. No politicians who actually care about their country would do this. Only supporters in the UK for this are those looking to destroy the UK.

1st dalkey dalkey

cryptocurrency wrote: »

nobody in Europe resonates with these EU leaders. People have woken up now and will vote for eurosceptic parties this May. I would personally recommend everyone vote this way to ensure that we don't see the likes of Tusk, Barnier or Vosth again. That is why they are so worried about and are setting up the Russian bait now.

You might see Barnier as a bad guy.

From this island he looks quite the opposite.

I have no idea how people will vote in May, and neither do you. But I am fairly happy that the EU will still be here next year and the one after that.

It turned out that the "Eurosceptics" who got into power weren't as sceptic after that fact. I suspect the rest will follow suit.