Brexit Discussion Thread VI

cryptocurrency

Nody wrote: »

Sure; same tune as when Brexit happened and all these countries that were going to rise up with UK and leave. Exactly how many countries joined UK again; can you remind me? Denmark? Finland? Belgium? Portugal? Italy? France? Greece? Oh right... And Italy was going to run once they elected their right wing parties as well and well, ouch.

Your echo chamber propaganda is nice and all but it's only hot air at this stage. You may hate EU, good for you, rest of Europe don't so don't let the door hit you on the way out and we'll speak once you've grown up in 15 years time. You think it will be a brilliant time for UK; somehow the rest of the world thinks you're all wrong but hey go ahead and prove us all wrong with your brilliant detailed action plan. Because you do have something beyond empty visions and metaphors right? You do have a plan you can share on how this will be achieved; this new global UK vision of yours, no? I mean you can't all be hot air and meaningless soundbites after all. So please, go ahead and share the details how UK are going to conquer the world out there; do go ahead.

EU lovers have put it all down on the UK failing and come crawling back. That will never happen.
UK will be fine and the EU will need to wake up to the fact they will have to deal with it. I don't think it is very wise to have a deteriorating relationship which is spiralling down at an alarming rate.

RobMc59

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

Of course you would.

The Brit approach to everything, divide and conquer.

Look, you voted leave. Just leave.
You are not obliged to accept the deal offered. If you don't want it just say so and leave.
We wont be in any way upset. At this stage it would be quite the contrary.

As founder members of the UN and NATO I think the UK is a proven participant of worthwhile organisations and it ain`t over till the fat lady sings with regards to leaving the EU-who knows-it may get back to the the old days,Irish and British scallop trawlers vs the french scallop trawlers!:cool:

road_high

cryptocurrency wrote: »

nobody in Europe resonates with these EU leaders. People have woken up now and will vote for eurosceptic parties this May. I would personally recommend everyone vote this way to ensure that we don't see the likes of Tusk, Barnier or Vosth again. That is why they are so worried about and are setting up the Russian bait now.

Most people in the EU don’t think about the EU this much- they’ll vote along the same lines as always ie an extension of their national voting patterns

Imreoir2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

All we hear is "the EU needs reform" and nothing happens. I would like to hear from EU supporters what reforms they want.

I would like to see the EU put an EU army to a referendum in every member state, same for federalisation, tax harmonization, free movement and migrant quotas.

Each state with each have an individual referendum on each topic.

Why should the EU be dictating to it's members states how to order their affairs? EU treaties require ratification through each member states own constitutional arrangements. In Ireland our constitutional arrangements require a referendum, in other countries it does not. No one ever gave the EU the power to order a member state to hold a referendum or to force them to ratify a treaty by means other than those set out in that nations constitution.

Perhaps the EU should order the UK to ratify the Withdrawal Treaty by referendum while they are at it?

prawnsambo

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

You might see Barnier as a bad guy.

From this island he looks quite the opposite.

I have no idea how people will vote in May, and neither do you. But I am fairly happy that the EU will still be here next year and the one after that.

It turned out that the "Eurosceptics" who got into power weren't as sceptic after that fact. I suspect the rest will follow suit.

What is most hated about Barnier and Tusk et al, is that they wouldn't be bullied, couldn't be sidelined and maintained complete consistency in everything they said and did. Great when they're working for you, not so much when you're on the other side of the table.

Nody

cryptocurrency wrote: »

EU lovers have put it all down on the UK failing and come crawling back. That will never happen.
UK will be fine and the EU will need to wake up to the fact they will have to deal with it. I don't think it is very wise to have a deteriorating relationship which is spiralling down at an alarming rate.

How about you answer the questions without the sound bite part as I requested above; you know we call that using arguments backed up by facts which I know may be hard to understand if you're used to UK press standards or listen to Trump. However the rest of the world do still work under such basic requirements to actually bring facts to the table to back up an argument; so still waiting.

cryptocurrency

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

You might see Barnier as a bad guy.

From this island he looks quite the opposite.

I have no idea how people will vote in May, and neither do you. But I am fairly happy that the EU will still be here next year and the one after that.

It turned out that the "Eurosceptics" who got into power weren't as sceptic after that fact. I suspect the rest will follow suit.

I see him as an extremely bad guy but was allowed to be cheeky by such a week May. UK needed a strong leader who talked at him no to him after the way they went on.

cryptocurrency

prawnsambo wrote: »

What is most hated about Barnier and Tusk et al, is that they wouldn't be bullied, couldn't be sidelined and maintained complete consistency in everything they said and did. Great when they're working for you, not so much when you're on the other side of the table.

May was bullied, she let them. She is worse. UK needed an extremely strong and bullish leader in once she was shown to be weak. Dislike of the EU is quite strong now even among many remainers.

road_high

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I see him as an extremely bad guy but was allowed to be cheeky by such a week May. UK needed a strong leader who talked at him no to him after the way they went on.

Over two years later you lot still don’t get it! It wouldnt matter if you sent the Almighty to negotiate, the Eu exists to protects its members- not outsiders who wish to cherry pick

1st dalkey dalkey

RobMc59 wrote: »

As founder members of the UN and NATO I think the UK is a proven participant of worthwhile organisations and it ain`t over till the fat lady sings with regards to leaving the EU-who knows-it may get back to the the old days,Irish and British scallop trawlers vs the french scallop trawlers!:cool:

I would rather hope that it could, Rob.

Post the GFA our relationship was the best it had ever been in my lifetime and most Irish people would welcome a return to that relationship.

But much of that improvement was aided and facilitated by our joint membership of the EU, along with a co-operative approach of politics on both sides of the Irish Sea.

Brexit seems to have completely changed the mindset. In its current form, I'm afraid I don't see much common ground.

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I see him as an extremely bad guy but was allowed to be cheeky by such a week May. UK needed a strong leader who talked at him no to him after the way they went on.

Really? I think you're confused again. Donald Tusk made the joke about cake and cherries, Barnier just did as he was instructed by the Council. And both would have been quite within their rights to be a lot more biting considering the bile that was thrown at them by UK ministers like Davis, Johnson and Raab; Jumped up idiots who hadn't the first clue about their jobs.

If there's one thing clear from this nonsense, it's how poorly the UK is generally served by its political masters. Very few of even average intelligence. And many just mandacious and self-serving.

cryptocurrency

road_high wrote: »

Over two years later you lot still don’t get it! It wouldnt matter if you sent the Almighty to negotiate, the Eu exists to protects its members- not outsiders who wish to cherry pick

Well the UK should walk, no deal and remember this ambitious club is on its doorstep and is against the UKs interest. It wants an Army, to militarise and use Frances UN seat as an EU one. This is now a rival to the US and UK with ambitions. This is a national security issue.
London and Washington should work together on this.

First Up

cryptocurrency wrote:

I see him as an extremely bad guy but was allowed to be cheeky by such a week May. UK needed a strong leader who talked at him no to him after the way they went on.

Barnier was "allowed" to negotiate by the twenty seven countries whose interests he represented. That job is done.

It wouldn't have made the slightest difference who was the UK's leader - and it won't make any difference if they change leader now.

cryptocurrency

First Up wrote: »

Barnier was "allowed" to negotiate by the twenty seven countries whose interests he represented. That job is done.

It wouldn't have made the slightest difference who was the UK's leader - and it won't make any difference if they change leader now.

A strong pro brexit leader to rally the nation to the joys of leaving and highlight the security concerns of this ambitious military club that will expand its powers and spending dramatically with nuclear weapons on their doorstep.

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

May was bullied, she let them. She is worse. UK needed an extremely strong and bullish leader in once she was shown to be weak. Dislike of the EU is quite strong now even among many remainers.

Yep. This is how it works. You leave a club and find that you aren't as important to the club as the remaining members. This works with all clubs. Surprised the British didn't get the concept.

mickoneill31

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Well the UK should walk, no deal and remember this ambitious club is on its doorstep and is against the UKs interest.

You are aware that the UK is still a member of the EU and that most votes in the EU have gone the UKs way. So if the EU is against the UKs interest why was the UK voting against its own interests when it was one of the most powerful countries in the EU? It had alliances with Ireland and others so we generally voted the UKs way to mean they had even more influence.

Look, it's OK to leave, but stop whinging about it, you can't really blame the EU for the mess in the UK anymore.

cryptocurrency

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yep. This is how it works. You leave a club and find that you aren't as important to the club as the remaining members. This works with all clubs. Surprised the British didn't get the concept.

Nobody cares about the club. We care about the militarization on the EU on our doorstep. This is what needs to be stopped.

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

A strong pro brexit leader to rally the nation to the joys of leaving and highlight the security concerns of this ambitious military club that will expand its powers and spending dramatically with nuclear weapons on their doorstep.

The nuclear weapons are there now, were there yesterday and will be there tomorrow. Have you only just noticed them? Struggling to understand your point.

road_high

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Well the UK should walk, no deal and remember this ambitious club is on its doorstep and is against the UKs interest. It wants an Army, to militarise and use Frances UN seat as an EU one. This is now a rival to the US and UK with ambitions. This is a national security issue.
London and Washington should work together on this.

The mask don’t take long to slip! Now it’s threats militarily. Lol
Yourselves and the US as best buds against the evil EU. It’s like it’s 1941 again

Imreoir2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

May was bullied, she let them. She is worse. UK needed an extremely strong and bullish leader in once she was shown to be weak. Dislike of the EU is quite strong now even among many remainers.

May found out the reality of the UK's situation. What exactly could anyone else have done? Let's say Borris was PM for the last two years. Do you think he would have gotten a better deal from the EU? Your dreaming if you think he or some other "bullish" leader would have fared any better.

The opinion of citizens of a non-member state is not really important to the EU, nor should it be. Hate the EU in your splendid Brexit isolation if you like, why should the EU care?

road_high

cryptocurrency wrote: »

A strong pro brexit leader to rally the nation to the joys of leaving and highlight the security concerns of this ambitious military club that will expand its powers and spending dramatically with nuclear weapons on their doorstep.

Maybe you can dig up Winston Churchill’s body?

Imreoir2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Nobody cares about the club. We care about the militarization on the EU on our doorstep. This is what needs to be stopped.

How do you think you are going to stop EU member states from co-operating in the defense sphere if they choose to do so? It is not your place to interfere in the internal affairs of the EU once you leave.

cryptocurrency

mickoneill31 wrote: »

You are aware that the UK is still a member of the EU and that most votes in the EU have gone the UKs way. So why was the UK voting against its own interests when it was one of the most powerful countries in the EU?

An EU army would mean one UN seat, and that will kill UK and French influence. The French are flat broke so are happy to do it but the UK is not. The US also has concerns about this.

The UK's natural allies for military and security is the US,AUS,NZ,CAN. I am glad they plan to expand on these with more bases being built in the overseas territories. This is about national security. Same with Gibraltar, UK needs to lay down a strong clear marker that this is totally off limits at all costs.

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Nobody cares about the club. We care about the militarization on the EU on our doorstep. This is what needs to be stopped.

No. You just think this is the latest drum to beat to frighten remainers. We in Ireland have had to live with a leaky nuclear waste reprocessing plant just across the water and a sometimes belligerent neighbour with US and home built nuclear weapons on our doorstep. And sometimes sneaking around our coastline on submarines, pulling trawlers under water. Yeah, it's gonna be terrible.

mickoneill31

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Nobody cares about the club. We care about the militarization on the EU on our doorstep. This is what needs to be stopped.

And the best way to achieve this is to leave the club. That's a genius strategy. You are aware that the foreign policy has to be unanimous. So if the UK didn't want the EU not to militarise then all it'd need to do is vote against it.

road_high

Imreoir2 wrote: »

How do you think you are going to stop EU member states from co-operating in the defense sphere if they choose to do so? It is not your place to interfere in the internal affairs of the EU once you leave.

He’s going to join up with Donald trump to stop them, silly...!

1st dalkey dalkey

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Well the UK should walk, no deal and remember this ambitious club is on its doorstep and is against the UKs interest. It wants an Army, to militarise and use Frances UN seat as an EU one. This is now a rival to the US and UK with ambitions. This is a national security issue.
London and Washington should work together on this.

Good luck working with the lamp who is in charge over there.

As to France' seat on the Security Council, well it will likely change to an EU seat about the same time as India takes over the UK seat.

First Up

cryptocurrency wrote:

A strong pro brexit leader to rally the nation to the joys of leaving and highlight the security concerns of this ambitious military club that will expand its powers and spending dramatically with nuclear weapons on their doorstep.

The UK can deal with its own situation as it likes. The 27 EU countries will be getting on with theirs.

cryptocurrency

road_high wrote: »

The mask don’t take long to slip! Now it’s threats militarily. Lol
Yourselves and the US as best buds against the evil EU. It’s like it’s 1941 again

Wouldn't take much effort by either. The EU just needs to not get too big for its boots. Lucky they are mostly tinpot militaries in the EU without much world class tech. UK and US should keep it that way.

PeadarCo

First Up wrote:

It wouldn't have made the slightest difference who was the UK's leader - and it won't make any difference if they change leader now.

To be fair it would have. If you had a leader who ensured the UK had an agreed upon position on Brexit before triggering article 50 it would have made negotiations far easier. With about 3 months to go before Brexit there is still no agreed position on Brexit. The UK has a fairly bespoke deal that is arguably far better than what would have been expected this time last year. However it pleases no one because it's a compromise deal.

A good leader would have dealt with the hard choices Brexit entailed first and which many hard Brexiters still ignore. The red lines May set out shot the UK in the foot and raised expectations when the opposite was required. However there is a serious question on whether any Pm would have lasted long enough to negotiate a deal if they had done this.