Brexit Discussion Thread VI

Anthracite

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Nobody cares about the club. We care about the militarization on the EU on our doorstep. This is what needs to be stopped.

What about the militarization of the UK? How do we stop this?

Anthracite

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The UK's natural allies for military and security is the US,AUS,NZ,CAN. I am glad they plan to expand on these with more bases being built in the overseas territories. This is about national security. Same with Gibraltar, UK needs to lay down a strong clear marker that this is totally off limits at all costs.

So you are glad about increasing miltary expansion, but scared of military cooperation?

Right. That makes a lot of sense.

cryptocurrency

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

Good luck working with the lamp who is in charge over there.

As to France' seat on the Security Council, well it will likely change to an EU seat about the same time as India takes over the UK seat.

That hasn't a hope in hell of happening. The renewal of Trident, all the new aircraft carriers, new standard sub fleet, new frigates, all the new F35Bs...EU/France have invested nowt nor has any solid plans too and India ditto.

The UK has a global base network which they have agreed to expand. I actually think this is what this is all about. France has raised a white flag to Brussels to stay relevant and the UK has engineered this all to slip out of the EU and ensure that it continues to make decisions at the top table, both militarily and financially.

cryptocurrency

Anthracite wrote: »

What about the militarization of the UK? How do we stop this?

You can't. You have decades of spending while the UK remains static along with training and operational activity to even try to climb to a level playing field.

Even on intelligence, the EU nations are a fairly tin pot with British intelligence being their main source of info.

Anthracite

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Wouldn't take much effort by either. The EU just needs to not get too big for its boots. Lucky they are mostly tinpot militaries in the EU without much world class tech. UK and US should keep it that way.

I suppose when logic fails, you can start throwing insults. It's the UKIP playbook.

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

That hasn't a hope in hell of happening. The renewal of Trident, all the new aircraft carriers, new standard sub fleet, new frigates, all the new F35Bs...EU/France have invested nowt nor has any solid plans too and India ditto.

The UK has a global base network which they have agreed to expand. I actually think this is what this is all about. France has raised a white flag to Brussels to stay relevant and the UK has engineered this all to slip out of the EU and ensure that it continues to make decisions at the top table, both militarily and financially.

Sorry mate, the UK can't afford to put aircraft on those carriers. They'll make good container ships though.

First Up

PeadarCo wrote:

To be fair it would have. If you had a leader who ensured the UK had an agreed upon position on Brexit before triggering article 50 it would have made negotiations far easier. With about 3 months to go before Brexit there is still no agreed position on Brexit. The UK has a fairly bespoke deal that is arguably far better than what would have been expected this time last year. However it pleases no one because it's a compromise deal.

It might have helped put more sugar on the pill the UK had to swallow but it would have been the same pill.

road_high

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Wouldn't take much effort by either. The EU just needs to not get too big for its boots. Lucky they are mostly tinpot militaries in the EU without much world class tech. UK and US should keep it that way.

You bleat on ad nauseum about failings of Eu democracy then come out with empty hollow threats about the uk and USA joining militarily to block them- hello irony?
EU states can militarily cooperate if they do wish, what you appear to be proposing is some kind of new arms race- i suppose when all else fails threaten the army on them

Anthracite

cryptocurrency wrote: »

You can't. You have decades of spending while the UK remains static along with training and operational activity to even try to climb to a level playing field.

Even on intelligence, the EU nations are a fairly tin pot with British intelligence being their main source of info.

So let me get this straight: you are simultaneously scared of the EU military co-operation, and contemptuous of what they are capable of?

What bilge.

cryptocurrency

prawnsambo wrote: »

Sorry mate, the UK can't afford to put aircraft on those carriers. They'll make good container ships though.

what are you talking about. They have just bought F35s for this very purpose and have received some of the 140 plus order already. That was what the whole debate about getting ride of the harrier a decade earlier was so controversial.

There is an aircraft carrier with F35Bs which has just come back from the Pacific which has been on an exercise. I know someone who got an award for its first bombhead.

Folkstonian

prawnsambo wrote: »

Sorry mate, the UK can't afford to put aircraft on those carriers. They'll make good container ships though.

Why lower yourself to that silly poster’s level?

You know this isn’t the case.

road_high

Anthracite wrote: »

I suppose when logic fails, you can start throwing insults. It's the UKIP playbook.

Never mind the insults- they’re par for the course since 1973- they’ve gone onto military threats now!

cryptocurrency

Anthracite wrote: »

So let me get this straight: you are simultaneously scared of the EU military co-operation, and contemptuous of what they are capable of?

What bilge.

Not scared. I don't think anyone is scared. Wary. I would say London and Washington are wary of letting the EU army every becoming anything more then what it has been...they are like 5th XV Juniors of a premiership team,

Anthracite

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Not scared. I don't think anyone is scared. Wary. I would say London and Washington are wary of letting the EU army every becoming anything more then what it has been...they are like 5th XV Juniors of a premiership team,

I think you are mixing your metaphors a bit there, Vlad.

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

what are you talking about. They have just bought F35s for this very purpose and have received some of the 140 plus order already. That was what the whole debate about getting ride of the harrier a decade earlier was so controversial.

There is an aircraft carrier with F35Bs which has just come back from the Pacific which has been on an exercise. I know someone who got an award for its first bombhead.

Afaik, the only F35s that have flown from it so far are ones borrowed from the US.

cryptocurrency

Folkstonian wrote: »

Why lower yourself to that silly poster’s level?

You know this isn’t the case.

https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2018/09/28/with-historic-first-f-35b-landings-on-hms-queen-elizabeth-the-uk-is-back-in-the-saddle-of-carrier-aviation/

3 new state of the art aircraft carriers in production and I'm sure more will be added.

There is a campaign to get some of the new frigate fleet made in the H&W yard in Belfast which would be a great economic boost to the area. I'm sure you will all support it.

Folkstonian

cryptocurrency wrote: »

You can't. You have decades of spending while the UK remains static along with training and operational activity to even try to climb to a level playing field.

Even on intelligence, the EU nations are a fairly tin pot with British intelligence being their main source of info.

Britain has a fairly effective intelligence set up. But so do the French. It’s often attributed to the fact that both as large post-imperial powers had to get good at knowing who was doing what, and what kind of threat they posed to the state in places like Algeria, Northern Ireland etc

The Germans used to be ruthlessly efficient but obviously they hit the reset button

But importantly we are on the same side these days 99% of the time, sharing information, confronting threats, and not competing.

Folkstonian

cryptocurrency wrote: »

https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2018/09/28/with-historic-first-f-35b-landings-on-hms-queen-elizabeth-the-uk-is-back-in-the-saddle-of-carrier-aviation/

3 new state of the art aircraft carriers in production and I'm sure more will be added.

There is a campaign to get some of the new frigate fleet made in the H&W yard in Belfast which would be a great economic boost to the area. I'm sure you will all support it.

You are the silly individual I was referring to. I don’t need you to link me this.

FYI 1 carrier is in service and 1 more is under construction, with sea trials anticipated for 2020.

There are no plans for a third

cryptocurrency

Folkstonian wrote: »

Britain has a fairly effective intelligence set up. But so do the French. It’s often attributed to the fact that both as large post-imperial powers had to get good at knowing who was doing what, and what kind of threat they posed to the state in places like Algeria, Northern Ireland etc

The Germans used to be ruthlessly efficient but obviously they hit the reset button

But importantly we are on the same side these days 99% of the time, sharing information, confronting threats, and not competing.

Same sides do not block planes, medicine, boats, cheese for wanting to enact the will of the people to leave their club and just be trading neighbours. They start that carry on they are not friends but the most hostile of enemies.

prawnsambo

Folkstonian wrote: »

Britain has a fairly effective intelligence set up. But so do the French. It’s often attributed to the fact that both as large post-imperial powers had to get good at knowing who was doing what, and what kind of threat they posed to the state in places like Algeria, Northern Ireland etc

The Germans used to be ruthlessly efficient but obviously they hit the reset button

But importantly we are on the same side these days 99% of the time, sharing information, confronting threats, and not competing.

The surprise emergence of the Baltic states as a top class provider of intelligence has been... surprising. Possibly not, but certainly to me. Have seen them mentioned a number of times by people who would know about these things.

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Same sides do not block planes, medicine, boats, cheese for wanting to enact the will of the people to leave their club and just be trading neighbours. They start that carry on they are not friends but the most hostile of enemies.

Please cop yourself on. You are posting on a thread and a forum where people actually know about this stuff. If you actually read Article 50, you'd understand why these things will happen.

You cannot keep your locker when you leave the golf club. Nor your membership card or your parking space. These things are axiomatic. If you didn't know about them when you voted, you were clearly uninformed.

road_high

cryptocurrency wrote: »

https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2018/09/28/with-historic-first-f-35b-landings-on-hms-queen-elizabeth-the-uk-is-back-in-the-saddle-of-carrier-aviation/

3 new state of the art aircraft carriers in production and I'm sure more will be added.

There is a campaign to get some of the new frigate fleet made in the H&W yard in Belfast which would be a great economic boost to the area. I'm sure you will all support it.

I read something recently a big chunk of H&W yard is being sold off and the few hundred workers left moved to a smaller corner of the site;
https://afloat.ie/port-news/belfast-lough/item/41371-harland-wolff-for-sale-as-norwegian-owner-fred-olsen-instigates-restructuring-process
Not a hope in hell of it being made in Belfast again- this isn’t 1910. Like the empire, Belfast’s ship building days are long numbered

lawred2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Same sides do not block planes, medicine, boats, cheese for wanting to enact the will of the people to leave their club and just be trading neighbours. They start that carry on they are not friends but the most hostile of enemies.

ah ffs

the EU has been front and centre in its dealings with the UK in order to sign a WA that ensures a transition where nothing gets 'blocked'

Anthracite

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Same sides do not block planes, medicine, boats, cheese for wanting to enact the will of the people to leave their club and just be trading neighbours. They start that carry on they are not friends but the most hostile of enemies.

Idiocy.

Nobody is blocking any boats. Extremists in the UK are about to walk the UK into a postion where there is no legal framework for trade.

This is not news, or secret - you can learn all about this in the non-UK press.

cryptocurrency

prawnsambo wrote: »

The surprise emergence of the Baltic states as a top class provider of intelligence has been... surprising. Possibly not, but certainly to me. Have seen them mentioned a number of times by people who would know about these things.

For Russia yes, for nowt else.

The comparison of French intelligence with the UK is also mad. Its been well documented the EUs dependence on UK intelligence and even its paranoia about it.

Anyways if the UK bumbles its way to a no deal without given remainers time to scream more then this could well be the best rope a dope in political history.

cryptocurrency

lawred2 wrote: »

ah ffs

the EU has been front and centre in its dealings with the UK in order to sign a WA that ensures a transition where nothing gets 'blocked'

no nation worth its salt would sign the deal with the backstop that holds the UK hostage. All nations need to be able to leave deals unilaterally.

cryptocurrency

Anthracite wrote: »

Idiocy.

Nobody is blocking any boats. Extremists in the UK are about to walk the UK into a postion where there is no legal framework for trade.

This is not news, or secret - you can learn all about this in the non-UK press.

That has been debunked 1000s of times

lawred2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

That has been debunked 1000s of times

what has?

Anthracite

cryptocurrency wrote: »

no nation worth its salt would sign the deal with the backstop that holds the UK hostage. All nations need to be able to leave deals unilaterally.

TBH modern Britain isn't really worth that much salt anyway. The place is in social collapse, and economic collapse will be along if they crash out of the EU. At least you'll have a seat in the UN talking shop, eh?

prawnsambo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

That has been debunked 1000s of times

Debunk it once here.