Brexit Discussion Thread VI

Anthracite

Midlife wrote: »

I don't think this is very thought through.

The UK are free to leave Europe so your love of freedom is intact.

So what's the problem? Lack of individual decision making and basic liberty?

But then how is a United Kingdom any more Libertarian than a United Europe?

Oddly enough, personal freedoms in Ireland have never been greater in human history. If this is oppression, I'll have some more of it please.

Strazdas

cryptocurrency wrote: »

JRM has caused quite a stir with his latest tweet. https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1080837722208636929

I have been quite shocked at how much abuse the man has got for that tweet and the strong opinions that the UK can't survive or won't survive without being in bed with the EU. So many people are showing serious dislike towards the UK that its a little disturbing. Who needs friends hey.

It's a very strong claim to make. He's not just saying Ireland are being a bit of a nuisance.....he's claiming that if there is No Deal, it will be the fault of the Irish.

boggerman1

Just wish this ****e was over now.the Brits want out but are scared ****less to actually walk away.crash out and enjoy the unicorns that follow

josip

lawred2 wrote: »

Sure when all else fails, nothing like resorting to stirring up a bit of anti Irish sentiments.

Blame the Irish government for a problem entirely of the makings of a cabal of disaster capitalists, charlatans, elitists, racists and snake oil salesmen ably abetted by millions of useful fools.

Imagine him being your representative and having voted for him.

I think it would be an even worse feeling for him to be your representative and you hadn't voted for him.

Peregrinus

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I am a libertarian and love freedom. It is what pulled me into the Crypto in 2012 as most libertarians were looking for money that could not be debased by the state.
My love of freedom means the vote in my eyes must be respected . . .

A true libertarian would be revolted and disturbed at the idea that, following a 52:48 vote, the political establishment's decrees about what the 52% voted for would be enforced both on the 52% and the 48%. That's a pretty glaring example of everything that libertarianism opposes.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

. . . and should also explain why I don't like the EU. Libertarians all hate the EU, it's against everything they hold dear.

Libertarians don't like intervention by government agencies, but they have no particular animus againg intervention by EU agencies as opposed to agencies of national or local governments. The issue for real libertarians is not the level at which governments intervention should happen, but whether it should happen at all.

Libertarians might oppose the EU if they thought the EU was regulating matters which would otherwise go unregulated. But only a drivelling idiot would think that, and you're not that, are you?

Capt'n Midnight

cryptocurrency wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jan/03/police-reinforcements-for-northern-ireland-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit-1000-officers-training-trouble-hard-border

This looks like it is getting serious with a 1000 new police trained for NI unrest if required.

If required ?

1,000 won't be enough if there is a hard border.


Last time there was a hard border 3,000 people died.

In addition to a much bigger police force, who had guns and armoured cars, there were also 27,000 troops.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I am a libertarian and love freedom.

See above.

“We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”
- who pays the rough men ?


You probably know that Ayn Rand took social security. And you probably expect to benefit at the expense of the have-nots. Brexit means austerity will continue for years for those who don't have decent jobs or pensions.

Imreoir2

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now it may be the only UK tender received, but it should have been rejected out of hand.

1. The company was formed as a £2 company in April 2017, just one week after Art 50 was lodged.

2. The company has no filed accounts.

3. It has no ships of its own nor any on charter.

4. The company has never operated a ship or a lorry.

5. The UK port of Ramsgate cannot handle RORO ferries currently. Dredging will be required, which has not happened.

6. There were reports in Kent newpapers citing some strange activity involving this company.

Smells a lot of fish.

Seems legit...

I'm guessing this is only the tip of the iceberg, there are a lot of Brexit bad boys who are planning to cash in on the crash.

Anthracite

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

You probably know that Ayn Rand took social security.

Wow, I did not know that. I will be sure to quote that ad nauseam at those people who suffer from the weird Objectivist cult.

igCorcaigh

"Most Tory members would choose no deal over May's Brexit plan"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/04/most-tory-members-would-choose-no-deal-over-may-brexit-plan

"Survey also finds that in two-option poll, 76% would choose no deal over remain"

igCorcaigh

May really needs Labour MPs to rebel

Peregrinus

igCorcaigh wrote: »

"Most Tory members would choose no deal over May's Brexit plan"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/04/most-tory-members-would-choose-no-deal-over-may-brexit-plan

"Survey also finds that in two-option poll, 76% would choose no deal over remain"

"Tory members" are a small, declining and unrepresentative group, though. Party membership stood at 124,000 in March 2018 - down from 134,000 in 2013 and 177,000 in 2010. (And 3 milliion in the 1950s!) The Tory party is now smaller than the SNP, which has 125,500 members (and much smaller than Labour, with 540,000 members).

But it's not just that the Tory party is small; it's also very unrepresentative. The party membership is 71% male, 86% drawn from the ABC1 social class and 97% white. They are drawn disproportionately from the south of England, excluding London, and they have an average age of 57. Only 5% of them belong to a trade union; fewer than the 6% who belong to Saga, the organisation that sells holidays, insurance, etc to the over-50s.

In short, what Tory party members would choose may not be all that relevant. What matters is what Parliament would choose.

fergus1001

igCorcaigh wrote:

May really needs Labour MPs to rebel

I really think no deal is what is coming

Theresa May has no time and no support to try anything else

get ready for the recession everyone

igCorcaigh

fergus1001 wrote: »

I really think no deal is what is coming

I still can't see parliament allowing that to happen. At least not without revoking or extending A50 first.

Peregrinus

igCorcaigh wrote: »

I still can't see parliament allowing that to happen. At least not without revoking or extending A50 first.

Parliament can't extend A50. It can merely ask the government to ask the EU to agree to an extension. It's no certain that the EU would agree. The wouldn't agree just for the pleasure of prolonging the agony; there would have to be good reason to think that granting the extension would break the logjam in some way. "We can't make up our minds!" is not a reason for granting an extension.

Parliament can revoke A50 - or, at least, it can direct the government to revoke it. (Whether the government would comply, and what constituational crisis might ensue if it didn't, are not the EU's problem). But the revocation would have to be an unequivocal termination of the Brexit process; it couldn't be a revocation for the purposes of having a bit of a think about it, or another referendum. If they tried to do that the EU could try to reject the revocation it as invalid, and the whole dispute would end up back in the ECJ.

jochenstacker

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I am a libertarian and love freedom. It is what pulled me into the Crypto in 2012 as most libertarians were looking for money that could not be debased by the state.
My love of freedom means the vote in my eyes must be respected and should also explain why I don't like the EU. Libertarians all hate the EU, it's against everything they hold dear.

The EU is doomed to fail and is holding back many nations. The real future is the developing world and Ireland should join the UK in taking it to them.

I understand it would not be wise for Ireland to leave the EU right now but its collapse would mean we can remain friends with our neighbours and say at least we tried and hung in there with them...but now we need to head off and make some real cash.

The UK reminds me of a sullen teenager living at home saying "this is a prison and you're opressing me, you're the worst parents ever, I'm moving out!"
And then continues to stay whilst complaining bitterly about unfair treatment and harassment.
And the same with this anti EU feeling amongst the usual cranks and malcontents. They keep bleating on about freedom and somehow being opressed. (a theme emerges)
And it can be said that the EU is the most advanced form of democracy and civilisation the world has ever seen.
I take it you're not family with the history of Europe over the last few thousand years. I'll give you a clue, war and bloodshed was the most favourite past time of nations.
You want freedom?
You're living it, buddy.

LuckyLloyd

You could have spent a lot of time arguing on political forums on the Internet with “libertarians” / “anarcho - capitalists” during the last economic crash if you had little to do with your time. The essential success of political centerism in the western world for 30 years has produced radical thinking on the edges. That radicalism craves the kind of tumultuous political / economic events we have seen the past decade and essentially cheers it on. It’s the faux thinking man’s politics of anger, a way of pretending your MAGA cap has a political philosophy behind it.

First Up

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Seriously , if cars need too many imported parts then they lose the Made in UK status and good look with the trade deals.

My point is that trade deals don't matter if you have nothing to trade.

The motor car industry is in effect the assembly of parts made elsewhere. Tariffs won't strangle it but delays at ports will.

jochenstacker

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You could have spent a lot of time arguing on political forums on the Internet with “libertarians” / “anarcho - capitalists” during the last economic crash if you had little to do with your time. The essential success of political centerism in the western world for 30 years has produced radical thinking on the edges. That radicalism craves the kind of tumultuous political / economic events we have seen the past decade and essentially cheers it on. It’s the faux thinking man’s politics of anger, a way of pretending your MAGA cap has a political philosophy behind it.

It may be human nature. When everyone has it too good for too long, some people get edgy, unhappy and aggressive. Maybe they need chaos and uncertainty to thrive.
This is evident on both sides, either lefties throwing stones and Molotov cocktails or right-wing skinhead assholes. And of course the pseudo "intellectuals" firing them on and trolling on the internet.
One can only hope that there are enough sensible people left (at least in Europe) who know that just because some people love nothing more than waving their banner on a burning barricade, doesn't mean they have a plan or idea beyond chaos.

In short:
Just because you're angry and shout very loud, doesn't make you right.

bilston

igCorcaigh wrote: »

"Most Tory members would choose no deal over May's Brexit plan"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/04/most-tory-members-would-choose-no-deal-over-may-brexit-plan

"Survey also finds that in two-option poll, 76% would choose no deal over remain"

I wonder what the age breakdown of these Tory party members is?

Sad that the majority of people under 45 who will have to deal with this s*** are being held hostage by the older generation

bilston

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If required ?

1,000 won't be enough if there is a hard border.


Last time there was a hard border 3,000 people died.

In addition to a much bigger police force, who had guns and armoured cars, there were also 27,000 troops.


See above.

“We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”
- who pays the rough men ?


You probably know that Ayn Rand took social security. And you probably expect to benefit at the expense of the have-nots. Brexit means austerity will continue for years for those who don't have decent jobs or pensions.

The British Army is a lot smaller now that is was during the Troubles. There won't be 20,000 troops to send to NI. Although I seriously doubt there would be a return to violence on that scale anyway.

Wanderer78

jochenstacker wrote:

It may be human nature. When everyone has it too good for too long, some people get edgy, unhappy and aggressive. Maybe they need chaos and uncertainty to thrive. This is evident on both sides, either lefties throwing stones and Molotov cocktails or right-wing skinhead assholes. And of course the pseudo "intellectuals" firing them on and trolling on the internet. One can only hope that there are enough sensible people left (at least in Europe) who know that just because some people love nothing more than waving their banner on a burning barricade, doesn't mean they have a plan or idea beyond chaos.

'Everyone has had it too good for too long', the plot thickens, or maybe the disconnect continues!

lawred2

josip wrote: »

I think it would be an even worse feeling for him to be your representative and you hadn't voted for him.

I was more trying to put myself in the shoes of the sort of person who would vote for such a caricature villain but yeah hard going being those that voted for the other guy.

nice_guy80

jochenstacker wrote: »

The UK reminds me of a sullen teenager living at home saying "this is a prison and you're opressing me, you're the worst parents ever, I'm moving out!"
And then continues to stay whilst complaining bitterly about unfair treatment and harassment.
And the same with this anti EU feeling amongst the usual cranks and malcontents. They keep bleating on about freedom and somehow being opressed. (a theme emerges)
And it can be said that the EU is the most advanced form of democracy and civilisation the world has ever seen.
I take it you're not family with the history of Europe over the last few thousand years. I'll give you a clue, war and bloodshed was the most favourite past time of nations.
You want freedom?
You're living it, buddy.

Problem is England and the British Empire spent a few hundred years fighting all those European countries
(Despite the English being part Saxon/viking/irish/Roman/Norman...) and sinking their ships to maintain trade supremacy

The English education system is still quite narrow minded and insular. This whoke brexit shambles can be seen partly as a product of that

CelticRambler

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I am a libertarian and love freedom. It is what pulled me into the Crypto in 2012 as most libertarians were looking for money that could not be debased by the state.

First of all, crypto: thanks for (finally) posting something with properly discussable points!
And now: your example of choosing cryptocurrency as a champion of libertarianism is quite pertinent to the wbole Brexit debate. While the concept looks great on paper - or at least it did ten years ago - the last two years have shown that the reality is very different, and the "money" was very easily debased by various shadowy agents around the globe, making the currency unstable and completely useless for ordinary life. In fact, it was only when the State (several states) started intervening, that it began to recover the stability and purpose for which it was originally designed.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

My love of freedom means the vote in my eyes must be respected and should also explain why I don't like the EU. Libertarians all hate the EU, it's against everything they hold dear.

An inherently contradictory attitude! How can you (or anyone professing to love freedom) hate an organisation which has as its core philosophy Four Freedoms, and four freedoms that are indivisible and non-negotiable, as the British are finding out?

Secondly, if you love freedom, surely that requires you to support the position of the Remainers/Second Referendum/People's Vote, who want the result of the first vote confirmed, seeing as everyone now knows that the campaign was significantly interfered with by outside forces - the very opposite of national "free will" ?

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The EU is doomed to fail and is holding back many nations. The real future is the developing world and Ireland should join the UK in taking it to them.

You're probably right: the EU is doomed to fail - like the USSR and the Holy Roman Empire. Give it another hundred years or so and who knows what might happen. But as things stand at the moment, the UK is likely to break up much sooner than the EU, which is still on target to add new members in the coming decade.

As for the "developing world" - where is that again? It's another Brexiteer fantasy - these imaginary nations that need the guiding light of British benevolence to achieve their full potential. In reality (there's that annoying spanner in the works again :P ) most of the "developing world" has already emerged from its colonial past and is now competing on level-ish terms for what's left of the earth's resources. In case you haven't noticed, the first thing they did was take many of the UK's manufacturing jobs; the next thing they did was sell their mineral rights to the Chinese.

What is the UK going to bring to the developing world that they don't already have, and what added value could Ireland contribute to a UK offer that wouldn't be so much more as part of an EU package?

Zubeneschamali

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Ineos is targeting sales of around 25,000 units per year.

Nissan produce half a million cars a year in Sunderland.


For now.

PopePalpatine

Infini wrote: »

I'd be honest considering the ways he's acted and the damage him and his cohorts risk causing I wouldn't be suprised if he ends up with a permenant police escort or forced to live under armed guard for the rest of his days. There's being an idiot and then theres been a incompetent fool and theres plenty of suspicions hes got financial motivations to cause a car crash Brexit.

Honestly trying to blame Ireland for his governments failures isn't gonna fly with anyone except the willfully ignorant who refuse to accept the factual truth before them.

Something tells me JRM will be well-settled in some tax haven when the riots begin.

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

I wonder what the age breakdown of these Tory party members is?

Sad that the majority of people under 45 who will have to deal with this s*** are being held hostage by the older generation

It was broken down on the previous page. In short, 124,000 members from a very narrow social strata. As you would expect. Although I was surprised as to how few they are.

jochenstacker

Wanderer78 wrote: »

'Everyone has had it too good for too long', the plot thickens, or maybe the disconnect continues!

Disconnect my eye.
Going back even two generations in my family, there is two world wars and a time where electricity, telephone, central heating, cars and going to the shop for groceries where very far from the norm.
Enough of those times eating meat was only reserved for the men of the house because they worked very hard.
The rest made do with grains, potato and veg.
What do we have today?
People live a life that was completely unthinkable even 100 years ago. Yes, electricity, phones, radio, and cars existed. But there was only one of each in each town.
The rest could not even dream of having these luxuries.
So when people sit in their house with central heating, electricity, phone, internet, 50 inch 4k telly, latest smartphone, laptops, several cars in the drive, fridge full of food, several holidays a year, eating out and they complain that we are living in some sort of dystopian Hellscape, well, who is disconnected from reality now?
Human history has been one long and bloody streak of misery, violence, war, oppression, hunger, disease and violence.

Wanderer78

jochenstacker wrote:

Disconnect my eye. Going back even two generations in my family, there is two world wars and a time where electricity, telephone, central heating, cars and going to the shop for groceries where very far from the norm. Enough of those times eating meat was only reserved for the men of the house because they worked very hard. The rest made do with grains, potato and veg. What do we have today? People live a life that was completely unthinkable even 100 years ago. Yes, electricity, phones, radio, and cars existed. But there was only one of each in each town. The rest could not even dream of having these luxuries. So when people sit in their house with central heating, electricity, phone, internet, 50 inch 4k telly, latest smartphone, laptops, several cars in the drive, fridge full of food, several holidays a year, eating out and they complain that we are living in some sort of dystopian Hellscape, well, who is disconnected from reality now? Human history has been one long and bloody streak of misery, violence, war, oppression, hunger, disease and violence.

Yes, the disconnect continues, it ll be interesting to see the world post brexit/trump/rise of the right etc etc, I suspect it won't be rosey

Dyr

jochenstacker wrote: »

It may be human nature. When everyone has it too good for too long, some people get edgy, unhappy and aggressive.

I think the 2008 crash shows we haven't had that good for that long, it's more an inevitable consequence of a ruling class that's out of touch with a sizable proportion of the population on a few key issues.