Yellow vest movement ireland

The Rape of Lucretia

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That is a personal choice each voter has to make.
But they need to recognise that voting for the same parties means you get the same results.
If they are happy to do that then so be it.
But don't be surprised when nothing changes.

People dont want change in that sense. There is a view among a minority that the whole population wants change but brainlessly keep voting for the same parties rather than voting for different ones who would enact change.
But this is not the case.
People dont want different politics. FF, FG, and assorted collections at different times of near relations, perfectly reflect the politics of a comfortable majority of the the Irish electorate.
This is why they keep voting for them.

That matters are not managed better is not down to politics, or the parties in charge, but to the fundamental capability of the Irish to govern themselves and to pay the price necessary for change. And they are poor at this, preferring short term gain, or to 'worry about tomorrow tomorrow but let have some tax cuts today anyway' to fundamental reform and long term development.

PeadarCo

Bannasidhe wrote:

And just like I should be taken to task if I don't do my job by my employers I have the right - as one of their employers - to take them to task if I don't think they are doing their job.

They are they are what Elections for. The current set of TDs, councillors and MEPs are what the electorate has decided. In the next set of elections they will face the music. If someone/party is regularly voted back in obviously the people who voted for them think they are doing a good job or at least capable of doing a better job than the alternative options. However you don't seem to be happy with the results. If you think you can do better stand for election.

The Rape of Lucretia

Bannasidhe wrote: »

SF - maybe might get into government. But they ain't hard left. They are at best economically leftish of centre and a wee bit rightish of centre on social issues.

SF arent anything - they are without any political leaning, rather, a political organisation in search of a role post peace in the north, and handed an opportunity to position themselves as leftish on the ground vacated by Labour. But the thrashing of labour coming fundamentally from a lack of any true left support in Ireland. They might, like, labour, brand themselves and speak the argot of the left. But really are middle, like 98% of Irish politics, since 98% of Ireland is middle.
There is no appetite, beyond that from the perpetual stirers and cranks, for any protest - the current govt fully represents the political allegiance of the Irish people and gives them what they want.

The Rape of Lucretia

PeadarCo wrote: »

They are they are what Elections for. The current set of TDs, councillors and MEPs are what the electorate has decided. In the next set of elections they will face the music. If someone/party is regularly voted back in obviously the people who voted for them think they are doing a good job or at least capable of doing a better job than the alternative options. However you don't seem to be happy with the results. If you think you can do better stand for election.

Ireland always votes for the same politics. It only changes the personnel a little, in a game of X-factor or I'm a Celeb. There has been no desire for change in Irish politics (the old FF/FG standoff having been a partition issue that is now obsolete) since the founding of the state.
The people have to cause to protest. Protest happens where there are divergent political views, and those not in power try to temper or divert the policies of their opponents when the opponents are in power. For a hundred years, the Irish have had a government implementing politics that effectively all agreed with.

hmmm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We could have had 250 million a year for housing and SW but we sold the magic money tree to Goldman Sachs. :pac:

I've no idea what conspiracy theory generates 250 million to GS, but 250 million is a drop in the bucket. The government spends nearly 80 billion a year.

Council housing isn't free btw.

Oh god, that again.

Bannasidhe

PeadarCo wrote: »

They are they are what Elections for. The current set of TDs, councillors and MEPs are what the electorate has decided. In the next set of elections they will face the music. If someone/party is regularly voted back in obviously the people who voted for them think they are doing a good job or at least capable of doing a better job than the alternative options. However you don't seem to be happy with the results. If you think you can do better stand for election.

Technically they, in the main, are the candidates selected by the parties from whom the electors get to choose. The parties chose from among the party faithful.
Not quite the choice your post would suggest.

Bannasidhe

hmmm wrote: »

I've no idea what conspiracy theory generates 250 million to GS, but 250 million is a drop in the bucket. The government spends nearly 80 billion a year.


Oh god, that again.

Well that's ok so. The government spends 80 billion a year so feck it, what does it matter if multinational vulture funds and assorted other multinationals don't pay drop in the bucket amounts of tax in the millions.

Sure in that case why chase tax defaulters - even going to the trouble of publishing their names? Sure what they get there wouldn't even make a ripple in the bucket.

Or going after the SW cheats AH loves to complain about? According to the DSP social welfare fraud totalled €38.4 million in 2017, down from €41 million in 2016. By your logic - given that this amounts to 420.6 million less than the vulture funds alone are allowed walk away without paying over the same time period - we should ignore that because bucket.

Why do Irish government chase individual citizens for relatively minor amounts but allow multinationals to avoid paying millions?

It is estimated that TV licence fee evasion amounts to 40 million a year. People get jail sentences for that.

Drop. In. The. Bucket.

To put this Vulture fund drop in the bucket in context.

In 2017 when vulture are estimated to have been allowed off the hook to the tune of a 250 million euro 'drop in the bucket' - the government's R&D budget for the Dept of Health was 48.7 million, for Climate Action and Environment (carbon tax anyone?) it was 19.6 million, while for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (I might be mistaken but I believe a lot of our exports some from this area..) it was 95.1 million. Total spend of 163.4 million.
https://dbei.gov.ie/en/Publications/Publication-files/The-R-D-Budget-2017-2018.pdf

These three alone could have been funded out of the 250 million vulture funds didn't pay and I'm sure we could have found somewhere to spend the remaining 80.6 million. Perhaps we could have reduced carbon tax and increased the budget for Climate Action and Environment at the same time :eek:

And yes, that again. That every single time some one repeats the B.S about "free houses".

Suckler

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It is estimated that TV licence fee evasion amounts to 40 million a year. People get jail sentences for that.

No they don't.

Bannasidhe

Suckler wrote: »

No they don't.

Yes they do.

The Irish Prison Service (IPS) confirmed that the number of those jailed for non-payment of fines in connection with the licence are not yet available for 2017 - the annual number is usually only a tiny fraction of the numbers of cases taken.

Also, it is expected that the numbers jailed for non-payment of fines connected to the TV will have dropped sharply in 2017 due to new legislation introduced aimed at reducing the numbers of those jailed for non-payment of fines.

The vast majority of those jailed in recent years spend only a few hours in prison.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/this-is-how-many-people-an-post-took-to-court-for-not-paying-their-tv-licence-last-year-829835.html

Note: I did not say how long they spent in jail, or how many are sentenced to jail. I said people are given jail sentences. This is a fact.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Technically they, in the main, are the candidates selected by the parties from whom the electors get to choose. The parties chose from among the party faithful.
Not quite the choice your post would suggest.

They are members of parties because it's better to work together to get someone elected.

The local elections are coming up and you can run yourself if you want to. It doesn't look to be massively onerous to get your name on the ballot.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/local_elections/nomination_of_candidates_in_local_authority_elections.html

Put yourself up there before the people, go knocking on the doors and see what they say.

Stand independently.
Clearly you have all the answers.

Bannasidhe

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

They are members of parties because it's better to work together to get someone elected.

The local elections are coming up and you can run yourself if you want to. It doesn't look to be massively onerous to get your name on the ballot.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/local_elections/nomination_of_candidates_in_local_authority_elections.html

Put yourself up there before the people, go knocking on the doors and see what they say.

Stand independently.
Clearly you have all the answers.

Why do people do this?

I never claimed to have all the answers but at least I am putting forward suggestions not spouting off about dole spongers or migration or people wanting free houses.

I am informing myself as every voter should. Should new information emerge I will change my conclusions based on that.

The response of "well you run so Mzzz Smarty Pants and see how you do" is frankly childish and a bit pathetic as it comes from a place that seems to believe voters shouldn't have an opinion or be free to fairly criticise what they see as government failures.

If you don't like how your car is repaired - become a mechanic and fix it yourself!
Don't like the way the teacher is doing their job of educating your kids - get thee a Hdip.
GP not up to much? You know the solution.

This whole "you run so" dismisses legitimate concerns and allows those well paid to do the job of representing the people to get off scot free.

Democracy does not mean well they were elected so shut up now and do as they say.

But I'm not telling you to shut up now and do as they say.

I'm saying you too can put yourself up for election if you really want to put it up to them and change things.

rossie1977

It's not as bad here in the EU compared to the US where workers have been royally screwed since 1980

rossie1977

rossie1977 wrote: »

It's not as bad here in the EU compared to the US where workers have been royally screwed since 1980

The benefits of automation are clearly not being distributed amongst the remaining employees

Edgware

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

SF arent anything - they are without any political leaning, rather, a political organisation in search of a role post peace in the north, and handed an opportunity to position themselves as leftish on the ground vacated by Labour. But the thrashing of labour coming fundamentally from a lack of any true left support in Ireland. They might, like, labour, brand themselves and speak the argot of the left. But really are middle, like 98% of Irish politics, since 98% of Ireland is middle.
There is no appetite, beyond that from the perpetual stirers and cranks, for any protest - the current govt fully represents the political allegiance of the Irish people and gives them what they want.

SF are all over the place. They play the strong republican line in Tyrone Armagh etc, the left wing line in the working class areas in the cities and then the slightly left of centre vacated by Labour in middle class areas. If you dont stand for someting you dont stand for anything.

weldoninhio

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes they do.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/this-is-how-many-people-an-post-took-to-court-for-not-paying-their-tv-licence-last-year-829835.html

Note: I did not say how long they spent in jail, or how many are sentenced to jail. I said people are given jail sentences. This is a fact.

No they don't.

From your own link "jailed for non-payment of fines"

Bannasidhe

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

But I'm not telling you to shut up now and do as they say.

I'm saying you too can put yourself up for election if you really want to put it up to them and change things.

And I'm saying I shouldn't have to.
If I had wanted to go into politics I would have done so a long time ago. That doesn't mean I cannot call truth to power.

Every elector has the right, and the duty, call our representatives to task for not doing their job in the exact same was as if we fail to do our jobs we can be called to task by our employers.

It's part of our role as electors to hold those we elect to account. Not just at the ballot box - that's lazy - but every day. That's democracy.

Bannasidhe

weldoninhio wrote: »

No they don't.

From your own link "jailed for non-payment of fines"

Quibble quibble.

Up before the beak in the first place for not paying TV licence.

The Irish Prison Service (IPS) confirmed that the number of those jailed for non-payment of fines in connection with the licence are not yet available for 2017 - the annual number is usually only a tiny fraction of the numbers of cases taken.


Let's all quibble about whether people are jailed for not paying the TV licence or jailed for not paying the fine for not paying the TV licence and ignore the estimated 250 million a year drop in the bucket Vulture Funds avoid paying in tax shall we?

Shall I instead say An Post last year took court proceedings against 11,693 people for not paying their television licence of 160 euro a year (160 x 11,693 = 1, 870,880) - a licence fee legislated for by government while at the same time that very same government enabled 15 Irish subsidiaries of global vulture funds to pay just €250 each a year in tax.

Is that better?

Suckler

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes they do.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

This is a fact.

No. They don't. It isn't a fact. You own link proves that.
There needs are ramifications for non payment of fines (i.e. what their punishment is). Otherwise you're arguing that every offender jailed for non payment of fines received a jail sentence despite that being patently incorrect.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Is that better?

No.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Quibble quibble.

Being deliberately disingenuous about "Facts" to shoehorn it in to an argument and then throwing about the "Quibble quibble" remark is a leap SF would be proud of.

Bannasidhe

Suckler wrote: »

No. They don't. It isn't a fact. You own link proves that.
There needs are ramifications for non payment of fines (i.e. what their punishment is). Otherwise you're arguing that every offender jailed for non payment of fines received a jail sentence despite that being patently incorrect.


No.



Being deliberately disingenuous about "Facts" to shoehorn it in to an argument and then throwing about the "Quibble quibble" remark is a leap SF would be proud of.

*Utter silence about the vultures funds*

Suckler

Bannasidhe wrote: »

*Utter silence about the vultures funds*

Yes...it has nothing to do with TV licenses...

You were trying insinuate they were on the same level.

'Quibble quibble' indeed.

Bannasidhe

Suckler wrote: »

Yes...it has nothing to do with TV licenses...

You were trying insinuate they were on the same level.

'Quibble quibble' indeed.

No. I wasn't.

I was illustrating how an Irish government can, and does, enact legislation to enable citizens to be chased to the extent that they get a criminal record for minor amount of money after another poster claimed that the 250 million a year Vulture Funds are allowed to neglect to pay in tax is a drop in the bucket.

But sure, do keep going on about TV licences as if they were the main point and ignore the actual point that foreign multinationals making millions in Ireland, from Irish taxpayers, are not being subjected to Irish taxes on their profits.

hmmm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

*Utter silence about the vultures funds*

As another poster has said, nothing stopping you putting yourself up for election. Then rabbit on about vulture funds to your hearts content, and I'm sure the population will appreciate how clever you are and will vote for you. Meanwhile the rest of us pay our debts and aren't too concerned about people who haven't being pursued for what they owe.

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The benefits of automation are clearly not being distributed amongst the remaining employees

When unions were strong they could get 5% wage increases for 5% productivity increases which coupled productivity to wages.

The graph confuses me a bit though because increases in productivity means more stuff, and therefore you would expect that wages in real terms would grow. Somebody has to buy the more stuff. Not shown here I suppose is the increase in compensation for the top 20% (which probably exceeded GDP growth on average).

Franz Von Peppercorn

hmmm wrote: »

As another poster has said, nothing stopping you putting yourself up for election. Then rabbit on about vulture funds to your hearts content, and I'm sure the population will appreciate how clever you are and will vote for you. Meanwhile the rest of us pay our debts and aren't too concerned about people who haven't being pursued for what they owe.

The Yellow vests are supremely undemocratic, and just yet another manifestation of the Left's appalling ignorance and patronising behaviour in trying to fight elections through street protests.

The yellow vests are considered right wing in France. Or non ideological but fed up.

Nothing wrong with street protest anyway.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Edgware wrote: »

SF are all over the place. They play the strong republican line in Tyrone Armagh etc, the left wing line in the working class areas in the cities and then the slightly left of centre vacated by Labour in middle class areas. If you dont stand for someting you dont stand for anything.

They are all over the shop - trying to be a modern FF catch all. Don’t think it will work as the division between the leafy suburbs and the workers is a chasm these days.

hmmm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Or non ideological but fed up.

"Fed up" is politics for children. They have put forward their proposals and they are a joke. Meanwhile they are disrupting the lives of people who aren't interested in their state of perpetual teen angst.

Bannasidhe

hmmm wrote: »

As another poster has said, nothing stopping you putting yourself up for election. Then rabbit on about vulture funds to your hearts content, and I'm sure the population will appreciate how clever you are and will vote for you. Meanwhile the rest of us pay our debts and aren't too concerned about people who haven't being pursued for what they owe.

May you and yours always be Alright Jack.

weldoninhio

Bannasidhe wrote: »

*Utter silence about the vultures funds*

"Vulture" funds exist because people don't pay what they've said they'll pay. If everyone paid their debts, there would be zero need for "vulture" funds.

Bannasidhe

weldoninhio wrote: »

"Vulture" funds exist because people don't pay what they've said they'll pay. If everyone paid their debts, there would be zero need for "vulture" funds.

How, exactly, does that justify vulture funds not being taxed on their profits?

I am genuinely amazed at the lengths some people are going to to brush aside the fact that Irish subsidiaries of multi-national investment corporations are being allowed to pay a pittance in tax.

"drop in the bucket"
"but... but...other people's debts"

Seriously? Are people really ok with this??

weldoninhio

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How, exactly, does that justify vulture funds not being taxed on their profits?

I am genuinely amazed at the lengths some people are going to to brush aside the fact that Irish subsidiaries of multi-national investment corporations are being allowed to pay a pittance in tax.

"drop in the bucket"
"but... but...other people's debts"

Seriously? Are people really ok with this??

I don't work for Revenue, so I've no idea how much Cerberus or any other fund pays in taxes. If they pay less through tax avoidance, that's their right unless we change the law. If it is tax evasion, then they should be chased for it and fined.

Bannasidhe

weldoninhio wrote: »

I don't work for Revenue, so I've no idea how much Cerberus or any other fund pays in taxes. If they pay less through tax avoidance, that's their right unless we change the law. If it is tax evasion, then they should be chased for it and fined.

"We" don't write the laws.
Revenue doesn't write the laws.
Government writes the laws = ergo they are the one's who have failed to enact legislation to enable Revenue to collect taxes from vulture funds that reflect the profits they make in Ireland.

Grayson

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The yellow vests are considered right wing in France. Or non ideological but fed up.

Nothing wrong with street protest anyway.

I read an article which had surveyed them and something like 40% were Le Pen voters. However there are a lot from other political groupings.

This article discusses how the far right/left are trying to influence/hijack the protests.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/world/europe/france-national-front-yellow-vests.html

weldoninhio

Bannasidhe wrote: »

"We" don't write the laws.
Revenue doesn't write the laws.
Government writes the laws = ergo they are the one's who have failed to enact legislation to enable Revenue to collect taxes from vulture funds that reflect the profits they make in Ireland.

“We” vote for the government to represent us.

Bannasidhe

weldoninhio wrote: »

“We” vote for the government to represent us.

So "we" write legislation do "we"?
And make all the decisions?

I continue to be amazed how people (not saying you personally) in AH can get so worked up about so-called "dole spongers" and are so sanguine about vulture funds not paying taxes on profits.

Was there a protest today?

gandalf

Deleted User wrote: »

Was there a protest today?

No it was too cold and the FA Cup was on the telly

weldoninhio

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So "we" write legislation do "we"?
And make all the decisions?

I continue to be amazed how people (not saying you personally) in AH can get so worked up about so-called "dole spongers" and are so sanguine about vulture funds not paying taxes on profits.

“We” choose the ones that write the legislation.

gctest50

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Was there a protest today?

No they ran out of Epi-Pens

First one put on a yellow vest and got an allergic reaction

The Rape of Lucretia

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So "we" write legislation do "we"?
And make all the decisions?

We do. It is not written by a dictator, a monarch, a theocratic elite, or a politburo. But by us.

The Rape of Lucretia

Deleted User wrote: »

Was there a protest today?

Numbers up today in France from the last couple of weeks, showing, I think, that it really is just a weekend hobby, or social outing for those without something better like sport or other leisure to pass their time, who took a couple of weeks off over the holidays, but are now back out again. Its probably just a fad, like line dancing, yoyos, or putting down your own decking. They will move on to something else soon enough.

AndrewJRenko

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And I'm saying I shouldn't have to.
If I had wanted to go into politics I would have done so a long time ago. That doesn't mean I cannot call truth to power.

Every elector has the right, and the duty, call our representatives to task for not doing their job in the exact same was as if we fail to do our jobs we can be called to task by our employers.

It's part of our role as electors to hold those we elect to account. Not just at the ballot box - that's lazy - but every day. That's democracy.

You can hold them to account for sure, but that doesn't mean that they have to agree with you or support you. No honest politician can agree with all their constituents, though some have pretended to in the past.



If they respectfully disagree with your position, as they presumably do, they are perfectly correct to ignore you and move along with their own platform.

joe swanson

An odd collection of the usual suspects, thugs and scumbags .

These sorts really put off decent people from legitimate protest

Patser

Is there a protest planned for today? Just passed about 30 people in yellow jackets outside Custom House with about 15 bored looking Gardai watching on. Everyone of the group was on their phone with that look of a lad on his own in the pub, ringing all his mates that promised to be there. 2 tricolours and 1 big Jobpath banner, and that's about it to suggest what's going on.

JohnMc1

Patser wrote: »

Is there a protest planned for today? Just passed about 30 people in yellow jackets outside Custom House with about 15 bored looking Gardai watching on. Everyone of the group was on their phone with that look of a lad on his own in the pub, ringing all his mates that promised to be there. 2 tricolours and 1 big Jobpath banner, and that's about it to suggest what's going on.

There is supposed to be one in Waterford today. Maybe one in Kilkenny at the end of the month. Not sure about Dublin.

Patser

JohnMc1 wrote: »

There is supposed to be one in Waterford today. Maybe one in Kilkenny at the end of the month. Not sure about Dublin.

Just heard through work they tried to block the Port tunnel - they had blocked it just before Christmas- but Gardai intercepted them en route. Tunnel had to close just for a few minutes as a precaution.

Normal practice, can't get enough people to protest to get attention, pull a stunt to get attention some other way.

JohnMc1

Patser wrote: »

Just heard through work they tried to block the Port tunnel - they had blocked it just before Christmas- but Gardai intercepted them en route. Tunnel had to close just for a few minutes as a precaution.

Normal practice, can't get enough people to protest to get attention, pull a stunt to get attention some other way.

Stunts like this can turn people off of movements. The organizers here need to hash out a code of conduct and blocking major roads and public offenses will not be tolerated.

AndrewJRenko

They've put a lot of work into development of their policy platform in the UK it seems, with their demands for child abuse, rape and murder of our children, pentioners (sic) living in poverty and veterans suicide.

https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1084118308696268801

Wheeliebin30

https://www.thejournal.ie/yellow-vest-protest-4441803-Jan2019/


Poor souls.

About 20 turned up earlier and they got angry at the no shows:)

Wheeliebin30

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/yellow-vest-protest-4441803-Jan2019/


Poor souls.

About 20 turned up earlier and they got angry at the no shows:)

Cancelled due to lack of interest. https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/protest-against-taoiseach-called-off-due-to-low-turnout-897796.html