Yellow vest movement ireland

P_1

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

What makes you think the majority want change?

Well have a look around? People are either stuck renting at massive costs or have bought and face 4 hours a day commuting. Is that life?

CelticRambler

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

... and this is why it'll never catch on here. People simply don't know how to protest without pissing off the very people they need to try and get to support them.

That's the French way ... :rolleyes: They protested against the introduction of the polluter-pays Ecotax on heavy goods traffic, so the government folded and transferred the tax to everyone else. Now they're protesting against that tax by stopping ordinary shoppers going shopping, so people are shopping online instead, giving their money to Amazon instead of French businesses.

At the last count, the gilet jaunes have put 34000 ordinary citizens out of work in the last month.

Wheeliebin30

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

They want change. If they didn't, the general elections is this country would provide a much higher percentage for someone.

The problem is that the one thing the majority are also absolutely terrified of is... change. And as such, when faced with the possibility of change, they all **** off down the pub.

So who do this majority who want change want to vote for?

The Rape of Lucretia

P_1 wrote: »

Well have a look around? People are either stuck renting at massive costs or have bought and face 4 hours a day commuting. Is that life?

The majority are nowhere near those scenarios. Some are, and its a big problem for them. But they are a small minority. The majority they are not.

Wheeliebin30

P_1 wrote: »

Well have a look around? People are either stuck renting at massive costs or have bought and face 4 hours a day commuting. Is that life?

Either???

So that’s it no other scenarios??

Bannasidhe

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Not quite the full story though - that doesnt include wage deflation back to 1989 levels approx a factor of 1/3. Making that 40k price feeling more like 120k would today. Still more affordable than the average today of about double that. But not quite as reachable as the 40k value first suggests.

Interestingly the 1989 house was round 2k more than my annual gross salary.
The 2005 house worked out at 5 times my annual gross salary.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So who do this majority who want change want to vote for?

Doesn't matter. if there was enough desire for change, SOME party would get it.

The Rape of Lucretia

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Interestingly the 1989 house was round 2k more than my annual gross salary.
The 2005 house worked out at 5 times my annual gross salary.

That was quite the exception - though nice for you! - but doesnt really represent the general picture.

BBFAN

The yellow vest movement will NEVER take off in Ireland because the Irish are too busy taking lumps out of each other to unite together for the greater good.

It makes me sick how Irish people constantly blame each other for their problems.

gctest50

Gilroy etc are like a dog chasing a bicycle - if you gave it to him, he wouldn't know what to do with it

PuppyMcPupFace

P_1 wrote: »

Well have a look around? People are either stuck renting at massive costs or have bought and face 4 hours a day commuting. Is that life?

Yes. I do near that and it's not perfect but I live in a nice house in a lovely quiet area and get work done on the commute.

You overestimate what people can manage, we're not all knee jerk reactionary morons.

DanMurphy

Division works well and we Irish are suckers for it.
FF, after wrecking the economy, sowed bitter division between the Public and Private Sectors, which is ongoing, even today.


Napoleon was once asked how he would invade Ireland.
'I wouldn't bother he said, I'd just send them enough weapons and they'd wipe each other out and then... if I wanted the place I'd just walk in and take over!'

P_1

PuppyMcPupFace wrote: »

Yes. I do near that and it's not perfect but I live in a nice house in a lovely quiet area and get work done on the commute.

You overestimate what people can manage, we're not all knee jerk reactionary morons.

Why should we just be content to manage it though? Like when you work, unless you're lucky to work for yourself all you're doing is making someone else richer and being paid a pittance to do so?

Wheeliebin30

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Doesn't matter. if there was enough desire for change, SOME party would get it.

Exactly.

Wheeliebin30

DanMurphy wrote: »

Division works well and we Irish are suckers for it.
FF, after wrecking the economy, sowed bitter division between the Public and Private Sectors, which is ongoing, even today.


Napoleon was once asked how he would invade Ireland.
'I wouldn't bother he said, I'd just send them enough weapons and they'd wipe each other out and then... if I wanted the place I'd just walk in and take over!'

Cool story bro

Wheeliebin30

BBFAN wrote: »

The yellow vest movement will NEVER take off in Ireland because the Irish are too busy taking lumps out of each other to unite together for the greater good.

It makes me sick how Irish people constantly blame each other for their problems.

Who should we blame?

BBFAN

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Who should we blame?

Oh I don't know, corrupt ministers, councillors, bankers etc. Who do you blame?

BBFAN

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Cool story bro

Great response mate.

Bannasidhe

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

That was quite the exception - though nice for you! - but doesnt really represent the general picture.

My point remains that in 20 odd years the price of a 3 bed terrace house went from the 20,000k mark to the 200,000k mark in Cork alone.

return guide

Bannasidhe wrote: »

By way of illustration.

My grandparents bought their house (then a new build) in 1956 for 3,000. 3 bed, semi-detached, in a then new build estate. Driveway, decent sized gardens (some people have built another house in the garden and sold it) These houses are now selling for just under 400,000.

I bought my first house in 1989 for 17,500. Victorian terraced, small front and back gardens, no driveway. Sold it in 1993 for 30,000.

I bought my 2nd house in 1996. That cost 70,000. 2 bed converted stable/carriage house, no front garden, tiny back garden, driveway. Sold it in 2001 for 180,000.

My current house I bought in 2005. It cost 228,000. New build, It's a 3 bed end of terrace, front garden that is essentially open as we are not allowed to fence it, very small back garden, although there is off street parking it's about 200 meters away.

Yes, it was in negative equity. TBH, I have no idea what it would sell for now (I'm leaving this house feet first) but a 2 bed 2 doors down from me has just gone on the market for 190,000.

My point being that aged 24 I was able to buy a 3 bed terraced house for less than 20,000.
Aged 41 it cost me over 1/4 of a million to buy a 3 bed terraced house.

That is insane inflation.

Did you complain about the insane inflation when you sold your house in 2001 at an insane inflated price.

No, like the rest of us you bought again .

The Rape of Lucretia

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My point remains that in 20 odd years the price of a 3 bed terrace house went from the 20,000k mark to the 200,000k mark in Cork alone.

And mine two. Salaries trebled. And Interest rates in that period were between a third and a tenth of the typical rates of 20 years ago and earlier which play a dramatic role in the true price of purchase for the majority purchasing by mortgage. Your 20 to 200 isnt wrong. It just overstated the magnitude of the change which is influenced by other factors.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

And mine two. Salaries trebled. And Interest rates in that period were between a third and a tenth of the typical rates of 20 years ago and earlier which play a dramatic role in the true price of purchase for the majority purchasing by mortgage. Your 20 to 200 isnt wrong. It just overstated the magnitude of the change which is influenced by other factors.

Plus the fact that there was a time not too long ago when a single income would have supported that household as well.

PuppyMcPupFace

P_1 wrote: »

Why should we just be content to manage it though? Like when you work, unless you're lucky to work for yourself all you're doing is making someone else richer and being paid a pittance to do so?

Perhaps "manage" was the wrong choice of word. I am content, I work hard; i earn a decent living - although taxed to **** - and I have a nice house that doesn't cost 2 grand a month.

I've gone on Pride marches for my friends in the LGBT community but I feel there's nothing really else worth protesting for. Nothing to be gained from wasting my time out on the streets - the ones protesting now are the freebie crowd who just want to cause trouble

BBFAN

So what are you all going to do about this crap other than moaning?

Bannasidhe

return guide wrote: »

Did you complain about the insane inflation when you sold your house in 2001 at an insane inflated price.

No, like the rest of us you bought again .

Yes, because I needed somewhere to live after I was forced to sell my home due to a relationship break-up for what I thought was a crazy price but that was the lowest valued price at the time and guess what - if we had sold for less revenue would have been asking questions as it was a relative of my ex partners who bought it. They still live there.

I rented - I was paying a guards mortgage while he was stationed up the country so yeah - I decided to pay my own mortgage instead.

And none of this has any baring on the price of a 3 bed terraced house increasing in price by 1000% in less than 20 years.

Wages certainly haven't increased by that amount.

I am puzzled by the passive aggressive nature of your response btw - no need for that. I haven't criticized you or anyone else. Simply pointed out that the cost of housing has spiraled. It's not like I even whinged about paying my mortgage. I'm paying my good old tracker every month without fail thank you very much.
I would like if my son and his fiance could get on the property ladder so they aren't paying someone else's mortgage every month and getting evicted periodically because the LL is selling/moving back in.

BBFAN

PuppyMcPupFace wrote: »

Perhaps "manage" was the wrong choice of word. I am content, I work hard; i earn a decent living - although taxed to **** - and I have a nice house that doesn't cost 2 grand a month.

I've gone on Pride marches for my friends in the LGBT community but I feel there's nothing really else worth protesting for. Nothing to be gained from wasting my time out on the streets - the ones protesting now are the freebie crowd who just want to cause trouble

So because you're okay then there's nothing worth protesting about?

P_1

PuppyMcPupFace wrote: »

Perhaps "manage" was the wrong choice of word. I am content, I work hard; i earn a decent living - although taxed to **** - and I have a nice house that doesn't cost 2 grand a month.

I've gone on Pride marches for my friends in the LGBT community but I feel there's nothing really else worth protesting for. Nothing to be gained from wasting my time out on the streets - the ones protesting now are the freebie crowd who just want to cause trouble

Aye that's fair enough, you're content. Personally I'm not. I see incompetence everywhere. Waste in resources building houses, a government abandoning their role to the free market. Morons who think blocking the tunnel will change anything. A health service woefully resourced. Bogus self employment. Good people trying to do good things, hamstrung at every step.

P_1

P_1 wrote: »

Aye that's fair enough, you're content. Personally I'm not. I see incompetence everywhere. Waste in resources building houses, a government abandoning their role to the free market. Morons who think blocking the tunnel will change anything. A health service woefully resourced. Bogus self employment. Good people trying to do good things, hamstrung at every step.

you seem to have a very high personal expectation for life. pray tell where you came by it and under what society have you experience of getting it met

P_1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

you seem to have a very high personal expectation for life. pray tell where you came by it and under what society have you experience of getting it met

So striving for high standards is something to be looked down on?

PuppyMcPupFace

P_1 wrote: »

Aye that's fair enough, you're content. Personally I'm not. I see incompetence everywhere. Waste in resources building houses, a government abandoning their role to the free market. Morons who think blocking the tunnel will change anything. A health service woefully resourced. Bogus self employment. Good people trying to do good things, hamstrung at every step.

I agree with most of your post there.

BBFAN

BBFAN wrote: »

So because you're okay then there's nothing worth protesting about?

The penny drops.

Pa ElGrande

Here is an interesting read (IMHO) on the the subject.


France: Understanding the Gilets Jaunes Uprising

. . . This is no ordinary manifestation.

This is a genuine uprising by millions of city and country folk, young and old, crossing different ethnic and cultural lines.

Macron’s diesel tax hike wasn’t the cause of the gilets jaunes movement. It was the spark detonating a bomb, that has been building for decades.

It is the first time since 1968, that France has seen such a genuine and uprising popular uprising, against the French state.

This protest is different. And it has very specific, historic reasons, as this article will reveal.

<snip>

The Real France

Think you know the real France? Here are a few facts that may shock you:

• The French state has been bankrupt since 2004. A minister finally admitted it in 2013.
• French GDP hasn’t risen above 2% in 50 years. Yes - FIFTY. The average annual GDP growth rate between 1949-2018? 0.78%.
• In 2018, 14% of the population in France live below the poverty line (they earn less than 60% of the median income).
• Worse, more than 50% of French people have an annual income of less than €20,150 a year (about $1,900 US per month).
• The 'official' unemployment rate is 10% - about 3.5 million citizens (in reality, it's much higher).
• The youth unemployment rate is 22%. Yes, you did read that right.
• Astonishing but true: the French government employs 25% of the entire French workforce...and it's impossible to fire them.
• Because the citizens make such little money, they pay no tax. Less than 50% of French pay any income tax at all; only around 14% pay at the rate of 30%, and less than 1% pay at the rate of 45%.
• The government can't deliver services without taxes, so it borrows money. France's debt-GDP is now 100%.

Another revealing statistic: "structural unemployment" is now at 9 -10%. That statistic measures when it is impossible to find people who have the skills and qualifications, to fill available positions. Why? French kids aren't being educated to participate in the workforce. So even if France has a growth spurt (it won’t), they won’t have the labor to fill the new jobs.

So how did this epic disaster happen? And if blame is to be allocated, who bears the most of it?

In other words - why are millions of French citizens on the rampage, right now?

Because there’s a real France, that few ever see.

The France of the gilets jaunes. Or as we might label them, les deplorables.

<snip>

The French Ruling Class

Many still understand France through the lens of Vogue magazine covers: a nation of affluent, happy people who live in elegant homes, with endless holidays, wine and food.

A 24/7 utopia of chic, elegance and style.

Important to note: that France does exist. It is the world of the French ruling class, less than 1% of the population.

This small group of citizens have dominated the business, banking, legal and political scenes for decades.

The ruling class comes from a small group of grandes ecoles, or elite colleges. There are only 3 or 4. The top of the top? L’Ecole d’Administration Nationale (ENA).

Emmanuel Macron’s journey is typical of the ruliing class. . . . .

emo72

[Deleted User] wrote: »

you seem to have a very high personal expectation for life. pray tell where you came by it and under what society have you experience of getting it met

Dennis o Briens of this world have amazing luck getting on with life. Absolutely no connection to FG at all, at all.

mikeecho

I'm alright jack

BBFAN

mikeecho wrote: »

I'm alright jack

Pull up the ladder. Typical Irish attitude.

BBFAN

BBFAN wrote: »

Pull up the ladder. Typical Irish attitude.

If we work hard and pay our way, then we ARE ok and have no need to inconvenience others by protesting, blocking roads when workers are trying to get home to their families, etc.

BBFAN

Deleted User wrote: »

If we work hard and pay our way, then we ARE ok and have no need to inconvenience others by protesting, blocking roads when workers are trying to get home to their families, etc.

Ah stop Maryanne, your attitude is so naïve.

There are plenty of young people in Ireland today that work their bollix off and they are NOT okay. They are living in a state of constant fear of being evicted from where they live.

Just because you may have your home does not mean that everyone who works hard has one. Stop bull****ting now.

You're happy because you're not in this constant state of worry, good for you. Does not mean that those that come behind are okay. Regardless of how hard they work.

Franz Von Peppercorn

BBFAN wrote: »

Ah stop Maryanne, your attitude is so naïve.

There are plenty of young people in Ireland today that work their bollix off and they are NOT okay. They are living in a state of constant fear of being evicted from where they live.

Just because you may have your home does not mean that everyone who works hard has one. Stop bull****ting now.

You're happy because you're not in this constant state of worry, good for you. Does not mean that those that come behind are okay. Regardless of how hard they work.

I’m doing ok with my own place, but I’ve seen my younger sister kicked out with her family from a rental two weeks before Christmas, back in 2014.

That kind of thing radicalises people.

(Btw she’s an accountant.).

emo72

Maryanne is self centred and okay. She doesn't give a flying **** about people who are young and struggling.

P_1

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I’m doing ok with my own place, but I’ve seem my sister kicked out with her family from a rental two weeks before Christmas.

That kind of thing radicalises people.

(Btw she’s an accountant.).

That's the problem, people are becoming radicalised. I can see it in myself the last year.

The problem when people become radicalised is that often they react in illogical ways (see the tunnel stunt today as an example) and look up to charlatans like Gilroy, O'Doherty et al as some sort of leader figure.

Is Varadkar doing a good job, feck no he isn't. Is he some sort of evil stooge, no he isn't either. However he seems to be falling into the same trap as Macron has and that won't end up well

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The penny drops.

The problem Maryanne is simple. If you’re alright jack and increasing numbers of people are not alright jack then eventually you won’t be alright jack.

Radical politicians, right or left, will come to power.

BBFAN

BBFAN wrote: »

Ah stop Maryanne, your attitude is so naïve.

There are plenty of young people in Ireland today that work their bollix off and they are NOT okay. They are living in a state of constant fear of being evicted from where they live.

Just because you may have your home does not mean that everyone who works hard has one. Stop bull****ting now.

You're happy because you're not in this constant state of worry, good for you. Does not mean that those that come behind are okay. Regardless of how hard they work.

When you get to my age you realise that every generation face the same struggles. You also learn that putting your energies into your family is more important than listening to the gripes of others. Look after you and yours. Or go into politics. You can’t do justice to both. One day you’ll see the truth of my words.

BBFAN

Deleted User wrote: »

When you get to my age you realise that every generation face the same struggles. You also learn that putting your energies into your family is more important than listening to the gripes of others. Look after you and yours. Or go into politics. You can’t do justice to both. One day you’ll see the truth of my words.

I'm probably older than you Maryanne and I've certainly seen more hardship so don't try to patronise me.

As I said, your attitude is I'm alright Jack. That's fine, you live in your comfortable bubble.

emo72

[Deleted User] wrote: »

When you get to my age you realise that every generation face the same struggles. You also learn that putting your energies into your family is more important than listening to the gripes of others. Look after you and yours. Or go into politics. You can’t do justice to both. One day you’ll see the truth of my words.

I'm your age. And I'm okay. But that's no reason to not think of generation coming behind you. Actually it's disgraceful to abandon them. So ****ing selfish. And that's what's wrong with this world.

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

When you get to my age you realise that every generation face the same struggles. You also learn that putting your energies into your family is more important than listening to the gripes of others. Look after you and yours. Or go into politics. You can’t do justice to both. One day you’ll see the truth of my words.

That’s banal claptrap. And, you know, people will get into politics.

I personally don’t want to see Ireland’s rabble left get into power, or the National front in France, or Brexit to go through.

But all of this radicalisation is because of worsening circumstances. We should try fix problems within the system rather than wait see the system collapse.

Pa ElGrande

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

Here is an interesting read (IMHO) on the the subject.


France: Understanding the Gilets Jaunes Uprising

. . . This is no ordinary manifestation.

This is a genuine uprising by millions of city and country folk, young and old, crossing different ethnic and cultural lines.

Macron’s diesel tax hike wasn’t the cause of the gilets jaunes movement. It was the spark detonating a bomb, that has been building for decades.

It is the first time since 1968, that France has seen such a genuine and uprising popular uprising, against the French state.

This protest is different. And it has very specific, historic reasons, as this article will reveal.

<snip>

The Real France

Think you know the real France? Here are a few facts that may shock you:

• The French state has been bankrupt since 2004. A minister finally admitted it in 2013.
• French GDP hasn’t risen above 2% in 50 years. Yes - FIFTY. The average annual GDP growth rate between 1949-2018? 0.78%.
• In 2018, 14% of the population in France live below the poverty line (they earn less than 60% of the median income).
• Worse, more than 50% of French people have an annual income of less than €20,150 a year (about $1,900 US per month).
• The 'official' unemployment rate is 10% - about 3.5 million citizens (in reality, it's much higher).
• The youth unemployment rate is 22%. Yes, you did read that right.
• Astonishing but true: the French government employs 25% of the entire French workforce...and it's impossible to fire them.
• Because the citizens make such little money, they pay no tax. Less than 50% of French pay any income tax at all; only around 14% pay at the rate of 30%, and less than 1% pay at the rate of 45%.
• The government can't deliver services without taxes, so it borrows money. France's debt-GDP is now 100%.

Another revealing statistic: "structural unemployment" is now at 9 -10%. That statistic measures when it is impossible to find people who have the skills and qualifications, to fill available positions. Why? French kids aren't being educated to participate in the workforce. So even if France has a growth spurt (it won’t), they won’t have the labor to fill the new jobs.

So how did this epic disaster happen? And if blame is to be allocated, who bears the most of it?

In other words - why are millions of French citizens on the rampage, right now?

Because there’s a real France, that few ever see.

The France of the gilets jaunes. Or as we might label them, les deplorables.

<snip>

The French Ruling Class

Many still understand France through the lens of Vogue magazine covers: a nation of affluent, happy people who live in elegant homes, with endless holidays, wine and food.

A 24/7 utopia of chic, elegance and style.

Important to note: that France does exist. It is the world of the French ruling class, less than 1% of the population.

This small group of citizens have dominated the business, banking, legal and political scenes for decades.

The ruling class comes from a small group of grandes ecoles, or elite colleges. There are only 3 or 4. The top of the top? L’Ecole d’Administration Nationale (ENA).

Emmanuel Macron’s journey is typical of the ruliing class. . . . .

Yes, and Macron's naivety in thinking he could push a raft of changes through at the same time, a bit like screwing down the safety valve while upping the pressure, something had to blow!
An experienced politician would have introduces the changes gradually over the entire term and people would have been unaware of the scope of the plan until it was too late.

If an Irish politician had introduced property taxes at the same time as the water charges, the civil disobedience would have been an order of magnitude higher, as it was, they were lucky that most people bought the "austerity" story that was used to justify it and the "temporary" USC.

P_1

P_1 wrote: »

So striving for high standards is something to be looked down on?

you evaded the question.

but i dont see your posts on boards.ie as striving for high standards. i see them as a performatively extreme bemoaning of imperfection in areas you seem to have little experience or influence.

and im not trying to zing you by pointing out that this is the least interesting, least useful 'contribution' a person might make to any given debate imo

Blaizes

But the Irish people were always known for their empathy and generosity remember Live Aid we gave more per capita than any other country in the world seven million pounds, a huge amount of money back then.

the lazy catcalls of "im alright jack" are banal in the extreme too

its a trite response to any advice or pointing out of the simple fact that in order to improve your lot its usually sound advice to work hard and in cooperation with the system you find yourself in.

its easy to paint that as horatio algar type aspirational pandering

but its more true, more often than anything coming out of the camp that likes to imagine that there was housing, jobs, money for the taking in any given generation past, or that online barstooling is as valid as experience or knowledge of fields as complex as housing, economics, government, whatever.

its soft and easy truths that people want, and someone to blame for the world not being perfect. youd want to have grown out of it long before the age of twenty tbh

Arthur Daley

Worse, more than 50% of French people have an annual income of less than €20,150 a year (about $1,900 US per month).
Because the citizens make such little money, they pay no tax. Less than 50% of French pay any income tax at all; only around 14% pay at the rate of 30%, and less than 1% pay at the rate of 45%.
The government can't deliver services without taxes, so it borrows money. France's debt-GDP is now 100%.

Sounds familiar. Ireland has a higher Debt/GDP ratio (and a grossly inflated GDP figure that is not a real world measure of the economic activity in the place). And A very large number of people who don't pay income tax. It is a boast of all politicians that x percentage of people are out of the tax net, and a narrow tax base was one of the criticisms levelled at Ireland in the run up to the Troika coming in. The bastardised property tax was supposed to address this, but hasn't really changed anything.


The stuff you will see on youtube around the Gillet Jaune (or God forbid Strokestown) with the likes of Ben Gilroy, Grand Torino, John Watters etc. is just trampling on the territory of SF and PBP, it doesn't tackle the thorny issues of either people paying for their previous accommodation and lifestyle choices or how taxes are to be raised across the spectrum of adults. I think it's fair to ask all adults to make some contribution to the tax base, and that people pay up for accommodation and lifestyle decisions they have made when they signed on the dotted lines. This is to at least try and be fair to all working people, and the Gillet Jaune purport to be:

The Yellow Vest Ireland movement describes itself as a “protest against the disproportionate burden of the government’s tax and reforms that are failing the working and middle class citizens of Ireland”.