Yellow vest movement ireland

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

the lazy catcalls of "im alright jack" are banal in the extreme too

its a trite response to any advice or pointing out of the simple fact that in order to improve your lot its usually sound advice to work hard and in cooperation with the system you find yourself in.

its easy to paint that as horatio algar type aspirational pandering

but its more true, more often than anything coming out of the camp that likes to imagine that there was housing, jobs, money for the taking in any given generation past, or that online barstooling is as valid as experience or knowledge of fields as complex as housing, economics, government, whatever.

its soft and easy truths that people want, and someone to blame for the world not being perfect. youd want to have grown out of it long before the age of twenty tbh

The whole working hard thing didn’t go well for my sister, a qualified accountant who has never been unemployed, when she was standing outside her house two weeks before Christmas 2014 in the rain as relatives swooped in to pick up the family to put on couches in their respective houses. She’s now a Sinn Féin voter.

As for your claim that we all have to be experts to know when a system is broken or imperfect - we don’t.

emo72

My income was enough to raise my family and and kids and buy my home. I had no education and fairly **** paying job. But it got me through the 90s and beyond.

Good luck to anyone thinks that's possible nowadays. It's not. Our standard of living has nosedived. But Leo says fair play to vulture funds. That's our country now and that bollocks. He should be flung from a height. The amount of I'm alright Jack is a disgrace on this thread. We should be trying to make life bearable for everyone. But if your ok with your lot,, you're saying work harder? **** off with that ****e. Stop thinking of yourself, and have a bit of decency.

Arthur Daley

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The whole working hard thing didn’t go well for my sister, a qualified accountant who has never been unemployed, when she was standing outside her house two weeks before Christmas in the rain as relatives swooped in to pick up the family to put on couches in their respective houses. She’s now a Sinn Féin voter.

And this is why FFG got less than 50% of the vote in the 2016 general election. Once they get beyond the 1922 centenary they will probably be forced to merge. They are fooling no one at this stage.

Blaizes

emo72 wrote: »

My income was enough to raise my family and and kids and buy my home. I had no education and fairly **** paying job. But it got me through the 90s and beyond.

Good luck to anyone thinks that's possible nowadays. It's not. Our standard of living has nosedived. But Leo says fair play to vulture funds. That's our country now and that bollocks. He should be flung from a height. The amount of I'm alright Jack is a disgrace on this thread. We should be trying to make life bearable for everyone. But if your ok with your lot,, you're saying work harder? **** off with that ****e. Stop thinking of yourself, and have a bit of decency.

We should be making life more bearable for everyone but since the last recession we've become nothing more than economic units.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The whole working hard thing didn’t go well for my sister, a qualified accountant who has never been unemployed, when she was standing outside her house two weeks before Christmas 2014 in the rain as relatives swooped in to pick up the family to put on couches in their respective houses. She’s now a Sinn Féin voter.

As for your claim that we all have to be experts to know when a system is broken or imperfect - we don’t.

im sorry about your sister that time.

that claim i didnt make? im ok with your rebuttal of it

mikeecho

BBFAN wrote: »

Pull up the ladder. Typical Irish attitude.

Should I be sorry for getting an education, not wasting my money, buying wisely, and not going mad during the boom.
NO

Yellow vest movement ireland is the typical, won't pay, pay me, group of society.

Gimme gimme gimme.... fuppin leeches.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

mikeecho wrote: »

Should I be sorry for getting an education, not wasting my money, buying wisely, and not going mad during the boom.
NO

Yellow vest movement ireland is the typical, won't pay, pay me, group of society.

Gimme gimme gimme.... fuppin leeches.

Have you decided that because it's a protest and that's what ALL protests are in your mind, or was there some logic specific to this group behind your thinking?

Blaizes

Blaizes wrote: »

We should be making life more bearable for everyone but since the last recession we've become nothing more than economic units.

Yes, and one thing that is often forgotten is the benefit of automation which has completely passed us by, back in the 1960s, we were promised huge amounts of leisure time and well paid jobs as the "robots" would do all the menial factory jobs.

In reality, all the financial benefits of automation have bypassed the real economy and gone straight to the top 0.01% of the population.

If the 1960s utopia had panned out as promised, we would all be working only about 25 hours a week and have sufficient income to live as well as many in the 70-80% wage bracket today enjoy.

Franz Von Peppercorn

mikeecho wrote: »

Should I be sorry for getting an education, not wasting my money, buying wisely, and not going mad during the boom.
NO

Yellow vest movement ireland is the typical, won't pay, pay me, group of society.

Gimme gimme gimme.... fuppin leeches.

They claim to represent tax payers - at least the French do.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

They claim to represent tax payers - at least the French do.

The initial movement in France was a grounds up movement that started from nothing and did generally represent the "squeezed middle" group of taxpayers, it succeeded in reversing some of the Macron policies, but has since been taken over by the "usual faces".

UrbanSprawl

I dont support these people disrupting traffic what does this achieve nothing ..costs money,actually makes thngs a little more **** for everyone gradually

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOmo5X7iWU

Wheeliebin30

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The whole working hard thing didn’t go well for my sister, a qualified accountant who has never been unemployed, when she was standing outside her house two weeks before Christmas 2014 in the rain as relatives swooped in to pick up the family to put on couches in their respective houses. She’s now a Sinn Féin voter.

As for your claim that we all have to be experts to know when a system is broken or imperfect - we don’t.

Why do you keep saying qualified accountant?

Do you think she has some privilege and deserves special treatment?

Poor me....

Wheeliebin30

emo72 wrote: »

My income was enough to raise my family and and kids and buy my home. I had no education and fairly **** paying job. But it got me through the 90s and beyond.

Good luck to anyone thinks that's possible nowadays. It's not. Our standard of living has nosedived. But Leo says fair play to vulture funds. That's our country now and that bollocks. He should be flung from a height. The amount of I'm alright Jack is a disgrace on this thread. We should be trying to make life bearable for everyone. But if your ok with your lot,, you're saying work harder? **** off with that ****e. Stop thinking of yourself, and have a bit of decency.

Always find it fascinating when people in Ireland blame one man who is in charge for 1 year how their lives turned out.

It’s pathetic, grow up and do things for yourself.

Blaming “the man” for your situation when he probably wasn’t even born when you came into this world, I don’t get it.

We are a lazy self pitying poor me country.

emo72

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Always find it fascinating when people in Ireland blame one man who is in charge for 1 year how their lives turned out.

It’s pathetic, grow up and do things for yourself.

Blaming “the man” for your situation when he probably wasn’t even born when you came into this world, I don’t get it.

We are a lazy self pitying poor me country.

My life turned out great. I had an opportunity to work hard and buy my home. That's not possible anymore. And I'm not thinking of myself I'm thinking of young people growing up now.

Leo is the current, and one of the worst.

emo72

emo72 wrote: »

My life turned out great. I had an opportunity to work hard and buy my home. That's not possible anymore. And I'm not thinking of myself I'm thinking of young people growing up now.

Leo is the current, and one of the worst.

not possible?

theres huge amounts of people doing it. for gods sake lay off.

emo72

[Deleted User] wrote: »

not possible?

theres huge amounts of people doing it. for gods sake lay off.

What? Single person working a basic retail job buying a 500k house? Where are those people?

Galwayguy35

P_1 wrote: »

Aye that's fair enough, you're content. Personally I'm not. I see incompetence everywhere. Waste in resources building houses, a government abandoning their role to the free market. Morons who think blocking the tunnel will change anything. A health service woefully resourced. Bogus self employment. Good people trying to do good things, hamstrung at every step.

The health service gets about 15.3 billion a year, for a country our size we should have the best service in the world for that money.

We can get rid of politicians come the next election but fatcats in the HSE with jobs for life are who is to blame for this one.

Allinall

emo72 wrote: »

What? Single person working a basic retail job buying a 500k house? Where are those people?

Who ever, anywhere said that was happening?

There are plenty of people working, getting and paying mortgages and getting on with their lives without whining and moaning and looking for someone to blame .

gandalf

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

The health service gets about 15.3 billion a year, for a country our size we should have the best service in the world for that money.

We can get rid of politicians come the next election but fatcats in the HSE with jobs for life are who is to blame for this one.

And the unions who protect them and middle management whilst the front line workers are on fixed term contracts and can be cut back to protect the administration jobs.

P_1

gandalf wrote: »

And the unions who protect them and middle management whilst the front line workers are on fixed term contracts and can be cut back to protect the administration jobs.

That's the issue in a nutshell, we can elect whoever we want but without getting rid of the protected Sir Humphreys in the civil service and in jobs like middle management it will achieve sweet feck all. Quite a few of the overpaid union hacks should be told where to go too

PuppyMcPupFace

P_1 wrote: »

That's the issue in a nutshell, we can elect whoever we want but without getting rid of the protected Sir Humphreys in the civil service and in jobs like middle management it will achieve sweet feck all. Quite a few of the overpaid union hacks should be told where to go too

Completely agree. Every time there's an increase in funding for health (or any taxpayer funded service) there are the unions with their greedy paws out.

did you see the amount the private sector was charging in cost overruns for the new childrens hospital

anyone?

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

did you see the amount the private sector was charging in cost overruns for the new childrens hospital

anyone?

That’s a public sector build.

P_1

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s a public sector build.

Outsourced to the private sector though. Fine if they can deliver efficiencies and bring the budget down, not fine if you have a layer cake of people creaming off the middle

Franz Von Peppercorn

Allinall wrote: »

Who ever, anywhere said that was happening?

There are plenty of people working, getting and paying mortgages and getting on with their lives without whining and moaning and looking for someone to blame .

The guy you are responding to says his parents bought a house on a single retail salary, one that now costs 500k. He then asked “who’s doing that now”. Two people have clearly decided to answer a different question about other people buying houses.

Again it’s great that you are paying your mortgage, for now. However being all right jack (for now) doesn’t guarantee you will be forever, and letting a considerable number of people not get on the property ladder, or get stuck in private rental with no security will radicalise politics.

Franz Von Peppercorn

P_1 wrote: »

Outsourced to the private sector though. Fine if they can deliver efficiencies and bring the budget down, not fine if you have a layer cake of people creaming off the middle

Why can’t the public sector actually manage these projects? If it were a private company looking to build a build that over ran by 450M it would go bust. With public money it doesn’t matter.

Bannasidhe

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

The health service gets about 15.3 billion a year, for a country our size we should have the best service in the world for that money.

We can get rid of politicians come the next election but fatcats in the HSE with jobs for life are who is to blame for this one.

What we have is zero accountability from the top down and that infects everything.

Those at the helm of every damn economic crash we have ever had have been allowed to walk away with generous pensions - and that includes top level civil servants.

We have had successive governments content to outsource everything from education to healthcare to infrastructure to support for the vulnerable while at the same time paying for government depts who are supposed to run these things. Not to mention picking up the tab for education, healthcare etc etc.

The Victorians built a system of National Schools across the country. Most of these ended up under the control of the RCC (by none too subtle political maneuvers on the local boards of governours), the new Irish State officially handed control of education over to the RCC, new schools using massive injections of State funds were built -through various means the RCC ended up "owning" the schools and many of the orders involved have placed the land in "trusts" lest the State try and regain control it never had.

Today we are seeing the same mistakes being repeated with the National Children's Hospital - spiraling costs to be met by the State (when is a tender not a tender but a suggestion of a tender sayeth the spin), who was in charge of that process? Millions (soon to spiral no doubt) for a National Maternity Hospital -aka paying for building on land owned by a "Trust" which is part of the RCC.

The Victorians built a road network across the country, the Irish State enters contracts with private developers to build toll roads and should the profit be less than agreed hands over millions to those same developers to make up the shortfall. Let's cut out the double dipping middle man and just build the damn roads.

The Victorians built free dispensaries and infirmaries in the major towns and cities... guess what happened those...

My point being that despite the myths around "what did the English ever do for us?" nationalist history we are fed in our RCC controlled "state" education when the Free State came in being there was a State built and funded education system, a healthcare system, and infrastructure. And we gave most of it away. We are still doing it.

Now lest anyone try and accuse me of being a West Brit let me say clearly and loudly I am a republican. I would love to live in an Irish republic. Currently, I am living in a publicly funded private enterprise harp embossed throwback to a colony "run" by cute hoors and gombeans.

We have a dept of health - and then we have the H.S.E and the RCC plus the various private healthcare groups who seemingly are unaccountable to the Dept of Health but still the State either funds or subsidies them.

Look at water - the Victorians built a whole network in urban areas (so swathes of people stopped dying of typhoid and cholera), this network was supposed to be maintained by the Local Authorities funded by rates. Jack Lynch promised to get rid of rates and won a landslide. To pay for the water/sewage network provision was made to take money from motor tax (but... what about the roads??), VAT and a few other things. All centralised and doled out by Central government with the work to be undertaken by Local Authorities that have become increasingly irrelevant (don't like their planning decision - appeal to An Bord Pleanala. Elect Councillors to represent you - yeah, the unelected managers actually make the decisions. Build housing ... but but... what are you? A Commie?!?! The market will provide!).
So now we have a crumbling water/sewage network (where did the money go?!?!?) so the gov set up Irish Water (is it a private company?? Is it a quango?? ) and claim we have been getting water free all this time (no we haven't - we have been paying indirectly) and now we must pay directly and indirectly.

Did it occur to anyone to say we are reducing the rate of motor tax/VAT to reflect this new funding model? Did it F.

And where are the people responsible for this fiasco?

Voting machines anyone?
Remember PPARS? Deloitte and Touche certainly do - they got 38.5 million - they estimate the final cost will be 195 million euro. For a payroll system... :rolleyes:

Let's have another toothless tribunal shall we?

gandalf

One thing here its the National Childrens Hospital that's blasting its budget. I don't believe the National Maternity hospital is which is located at a different site.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Hilarious to read some people proposing to double/treble tax on petrol/diesel. They’d then be bitching on another thread when the cost of items in shops increases.

PuppyMcPupFace

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Hilarious to read some people proposing to double/treble tax on petrol/diesel. They’d then be bitching on another thread when the cost of items in shops increases.

You're forgetting that most of these are so far left they'd happily blow Boyd Barrett in the Dail bar - they're economically illiterate.

The Rape of Lucretia

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The Victorians built a system of National Schools across the country.

The Victorians built a road network across the country.

The Victorians built free dispensaries and infirmaries in the major towns and cities.

Look at water - the Victorians built a whole network in urban areas (so swathes of people stopped dying of typhoid and cholera)

So what you're saying is, despite ideally preferring a republican model for the state, that the bottom line is that the republic has made a hames of things that were done well while Ireland was part of the UK ? The Irish just arent very good at running their own affairs. Extending that point then, there is a clear solution available.

Bannasidhe

gandalf wrote: »

One thing here its the National Childrens Hospital that's blasting its budget. I don't believe the National Maternity hospital is which is located at a different site.

You are correct. I was in mid rant and got my which hospitals are we paying gazillions for mixed up.
Have edited to correct my mistake.

P_1

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

So what you're saying is, despite ideally preferring a republican model for the state, that the bottom line is that the republic has made a hames of things that were done well while Ireland was part of the UK ? The Irish just arent very good at running their own affairs. Extending that point then, there is a clear solution available.

That model isn't working too well though at the moment is it?

Though if we can somehow convince the English to ditch the Tories, the monarchy and FPTP then would a federal union be such a bad thing?

Kivaro

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You are correct. I was in mid rant and got my which hospitals are we paying gazillions for mixed up.
Have edited to correct my mistake.

Good (and accurate) rant though.
You have the makings of a yellow vester.

Allinall

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The guy you are responding to says his parents bought a house on a single retail salary, one that now costs 500k. He then asked “who’s doing that now”. Two people have clearly decided to answer a different question about other people buying houses.

Again it’s great that you are paying your mortgage, for now. However being all right jack (for now) doesn’t guarantee you will be forever, and letting a considerable number of people not get on the property ladder, or get stuck in private rental with no security will radicalise politics.

It was always thus.

People have rose tinted views of days gone by.

My parents bought a €4,000 house in 1962 and sold it for €1.7 million.

Meaningless figures.

OK, so this is what I've gathered the posters of this thread want:

Less taxes, less services and welfare.
More taxes, more services and welfare.
Less taxes, more services and welfare.
To break up the HSE unions.
No environmental measures.
A single retail cashier to be able to afford a house on their income alone.
To rejoin the United Kingdom.

Sounds a bit ridiculous, perhaps unachievable even, when you lay it all out, right?

Couple of points:
About the automation/working less issue - we can of course work far less, even not at all in Ireland, and live far beyond a middle class existence of the 60s and 70s. We consume far more now though, phones, subscriptions, cars, and you are competing with working couple's combined economic power when it comes to buying houses etc.

Bannasidhe

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

So what you're saying is, despite ideally preferring a republican model for the state, that the bottom line is that the republic has made a hames of things that were done well while Ireland was part of the UK ? The Irish just arent very good at running their own affairs. Extending that point then, there is a clear solution available.

The bottom line is we do not have a republic.

And how could we when we allowed our education system to be placed in the control of people who swear no loyalty to the State but are part of an international organisation based in another country which demands ultimate loyalty to itself?

How many of us learned civics in school? Do you think knowing the rights and responsibilities of being a citizen can be picked up by osmosis?
How many learned the Catechism? Most of us are very clear (even as we ignore most of it) of the duties of being a good Roman Catholic to the extent that, as the Marriage Ref demonstrated, many people can't even tell where the State ends and the Church begins. The number of people who didn't understand that the wedding mass part is meaningless window dressing with no legal standing and the actual marriage occurs when the register is signed in the Sacristy was mindboggling.

The simple truth is - We weren't allowed to run our own affairs. Outside interference was interwoven into the fabric of the State and there it remains.

We could have a republic but the I'm alright jack crew don't want that because (at the moment) the dysfunction is working to their advantage.
When people protest they are dismissed as "crusties", "the usual suspects", "layabouts","want something for nothing brigade".

All the things that were said in 1916 when a group of lefties led a Rising to try and create a republic. They were vilified by the I'm alright Jack Crew up until they were shot then the protests really started.
The RCC and the IARJ Crew were quick to see which way the wind was blowing and took control to ensure the status quo reasserted itself with themselves in prime position.
Since then we have had the two cheeks of the same arse parties abdicating responsibility while spinning their lack of achievements during the years they "serve" to build up their pension entitlements. All enabled by a politically illiterate electorate. It wouldn't be in either the RCC's or the IARJ Crew's interests, after all, to have a politically literate population now would it? - they might demand change.

The danger of a politically illiterate electorate is it looks for what it perceives as strong leaders to fix everything - most of whom are nothing more than Wizards of Oz spin doctors with no more brains than the rest of us but a lot more ego.

EdgeCase

P_1 wrote: »

That's the issue in a nutshell, we can elect whoever we want but without getting rid of the protected Sir Humphreys in the civil service and in jobs like middle management it will achieve sweet feck all. Quite a few of the overpaid union hacks should be told where to go too

Pretty much every minister who has tried to reform health here has been chewed up and spat out for their efforts. That's why the savvy ones tend to focus on a parallel issue.

Actually reforming the health system here needs to be done cross party as you're basically up against some of the most manipulative vested interests in the country and all sorts of status quo situations that are doing a lot of damage but are willing to dig in and spin viciously to protect themselves.

Politics here has always been attacked by the system, going right back to the 50s when Noel Browne tired to reform primary care with the mother and child scheme.

The system has been incredibly arrogant and untamable for decades.

To actually fix it would take serious cross party politics and broad public backing for whatever reforms would be pushed through. To date, that's never happened.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The bottom line is we do not have a republic.

And how could we when we allowed our education system to be placed in the control of people who swear no loyalty to the State but are part of an international organisation based in another country which demands ultimate loyalty to itself?

How many of us learned civics in school? Do you think knowing the rights and responsibilities of being a citizen can be picked up by osmosis?
How many learned the Catechism? Most of us are very clear (even as we ignore most of it) of the duties of being a good Roman Catholic to the extent that, as the Marriage Ref demonstrated, many people can't even tell where the State ends and the Church begins. The number of people who didn't understand that the wedding mass part is meaningless window dressing with no legal standing and the actual marriage occurs when the register is signed in the Sacristy was mindboggling.

The simple truth is - We weren't allowed to run our own affairs. Outside interference was interwoven into the fabric of the State and there it remains.

We could have a republic but the I'm alright jack crew don't want that because (at the moment) the dysfunction is working to their advantage.
When people protest they are dismissed as "crusties", "the usual suspects", "layabouts","want something for nothing brigade".

All the things that were said in 1916 when a group of lefties led a Rising to try and create a republic. They were vilified by the I'm alright Jack Crew up until they were shot then the protests really started.
The RCC and the IARJ Crew were quick to see which way the wind was blowing and took control to ensure the status quo reasserted itself with themselves in prime position.
Since then we have had the two cheeks of the same arse parties abdicating responsibility while spinning their lack of achievements during the years they "serve" to build up their pension entitlements. All enabled by a politically illiterate electorate. It wouldn't be in either the RCC's or the IARJ Crew's interests, after all, to have a politically literate population now would it? - they might demand change.

The danger of a politically illiterate electorate is it looks for what it perceives as strong leaders to fix everything - most of whom are nothing more than Wizards of Oz spin doctors with no more brains than the rest of us but a lot more ego.

Let's nip this in the bid here. Sure ireland has some problems, but the UK is ****ed. The majority of people are doing quite well in Ireland these days, a massive turnaround in just a few years. You make out like we're all starving. Homelessness in the UK, which is actually far worse than ireland, hardly gets a mention in political or national discourse because they've so many competing problems that supercede the issue in severity.

France, Italy, Spain could be included in that also. We are doing swimmingly when you imagine how bad things could be in comparison, considering the economic crash and how poorly our, traditionally wealthier, neighbours are doing.

Franz Von Peppercorn

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

So what you're saying is, despite ideally preferring a republican model for the state, that the bottom line is that the republic has made a hames of things that were done well while Ireland was part of the UK ? The Irish just arent very good at running their own affairs. Extending that point then, there is a clear solution available.

Bad trol. The U.K. was better at this then too. It’s a clown show now. Can’t even find a drone. If there was a drone. Who knows. It’s all a bit English.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Allinall wrote: »

It was always thus.

People have rose tinted views of days gone by.

My parents bought a €4,000 house in 1962 and sold it for €1.7 million.

Meaningless figures.

I presume the second quote is a joke, although it could have happened.

No it wasn’t always thus. The guy you are all responding to is proof of that. House ownership was higher and first time buyers were younger.

P_1

EdgeCase wrote: »

Pretty much every minister who has tried to reform health here has been chewed up and spat out for their efforts. That's why the savvy ones tend to focus on a parallel issue.

Actually reforming the health system here needs to be done cross party as you're basically up against some of the most manipulative vested interests in the country and all sorts of status quo situations that are doing a lot of damage but are willing to dig in and spin viciously to protect themselves.

Politics here has always been attacked by the system, going right back to the 50s when Noel Browne tired to reform primary care with the mother and child scheme.

The system has been incredibly arrogant and untamable for decades.

To actually fix it would take serious cross party politics and broad public backing for whatever reforms would be pushed through. To date, that's never happened.

Indeed and sadly on virtually all issues ego in our political class prevents any proper cross party support from happening. I'll give you a bizzare anecdote from the dail recently. A pmb was proposed, everyone agreed on it, Shane bloody Ross agreed on it, yet FG voted it down because it criticised them. Honestly you can't make it up

EdgeCase

The other side of it in the past:

Interest rates were enormous.

Currency was highly unstable and lead to massive inflation which caused the relative value of mortgages to drop rapidly but had negative impacts for pretty much everything else.

There was relatively weak demand as nobody wanted to live in Ireland and there were decades of mass emigration and economic stagnation, so of course housing was cheap. If you pick a depressed part of continental Europe or the US, housing is also much cheaper than here but, you'd find it fairly unattractive.

The average Irish person in the 80s had very poor purchasing power. That's why we had very few luxuries. We couldn't afford them and were restricted to the basics. Low wages and a currency that was weak and linked to Sterling which was utterly chaotic in the 70s.

There was very bad infrastructure - no motorways, run down clapped out busses and trains, a telephone network that just didn't work. I don't mean bad rural broadband I mean you couldn't make a call between Dublin and Cork half the time and businesses were not investing because of it.

The quality of cars was bad compared to most of our neighbours. People were driving bangers. I remember the floor falling out of my mum's car in the 1980s.

I also remember having no heating because we couldn't afford fuel and having to wear coats indoors.

Houses with no central heating was common here until the 1990s. I distinctly remember some of my older relatives being quite excited at the prospect of having running hot water.

Things like dishwashers and microwaves were ultra luxury goods that only the wealthy even ever saw.

Both of my parents were young professionals at that stage btw and both working full time and childcare was being provided by my granny for free. They had a house but they couldn't afford the mortgage.

The health system was largely based on charity and facilities were only barely ok. It was only acceptable because people had no expectation of high tech treatments.

Living in a relatively poor place, if you're one of those with a job and a decent income has upsides as the costs of living are low but for the majority in Ireland in the 80s things were bad enough to pack up and leave. We had headlines suggesting that the last person to leave might turn off the lights at ESB HQ.

We have a housing crisis at the moment that's largely being driven by huge uptick in economic activity. It's painful and it needs to be resolved but it's a problem of supply and demand in an economy that's surging.

We would want to be very careful that we are not remembering someone else's 1970s and 80s. Ireland wasn't France or the US. There isn't a golden age when we all had wonderful jobs and standards of living to look back at. We had very low expectations really until the 1990s.

We have a series of housing problems at the moment but this is about as good as it ever has been.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The bottom line is we do not have a republic.

And how could we when we allowed our education system to be placed in the control of people who swear no loyalty to the State but are part of an international organisation based in another country which demands ultimate loyalty to itself?

How many of us learned civics in school? Do you think knowing the rights and responsibilities of being a citizen can be picked up by osmosis?
How many learned the Catechism? Most of us are very clear (even as we ignore most of it) of the duties of being a good Roman Catholic to the extent that, as the Marriage Ref demonstrated, many people can't even tell where the State ends and the Church begins. The number of people who didn't understand that the wedding mass part is meaningless window dressing with no legal standing and the actual marriage occurs when the register is signed in the Sacristy was mindboggling.

The simple truth is - We weren't allowed to run our own affairs. Outside interference was interwoven into the fabric of the State and there it remains.

We could have a republic but the I'm alright jack crew don't want that because (at the moment) the dysfunction is working to their advantage.
When people protest they are dismissed as "crusties", "the usual suspects", "layabouts","want something for nothing brigade".

All the things that were said in 1916 when a group of lefties led a Rising to try and create a republic. They were vilified by the I'm alright Jack Crew up until they were shot then the protests really started.
The RCC and the IARJ Crew were quick to see which way the wind was blowing and took control to ensure the status quo reasserted itself with themselves in prime position.
Since then we have had the two cheeks of the same arse parties abdicating responsibility while spinning their lack of achievements during the years they "serve" to build up their pension entitlements. All enabled by a politically illiterate electorate. It wouldn't be in either the RCC's or the IARJ Crew's interests, after all, to have a politically literate population now would it? - they might demand change.

The danger of a politically illiterate electorate is it looks for what it perceives as strong leaders to fix everything - most of whom are nothing more than Wizards of Oz spin doctors with no more brains than the rest of us but a lot more ego.

There’s only so much blaming of the RCC you can do in 2018. In any case we could and did build housing (if little else) after 1921.

Bannasidhe

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

Let's nip this in the bid here. Sure ireland has some problems, but the UK is ****ed. The majority of people are doing quite well in Ireland these days, a massive turnaround in just a few years. You make out like we're all starving. Homelessness in the UK, which is actually far worse than ireland, hardly gets a mention in political or national discourse because they've so many competing problems that supercede the issue in severity.

France, Italy, Spain could be included in that also. We are doing swimmingly when you imagine how bad things could be in comparison, considering the economic crash and how poorly our, traditionally wealthier, neighbours are doing.

Interesting, but I made no reference to the UK bar mentioning what was in place in 1922. I certainly didn't extol the UK as some sort of benchmark - I have been watching their society crumble since Thatcher decided to sell off the family silver and blame the E.U - although I do like how they occasionally jail MPs who have been caught being dodgy. We seem to like to re-elect them here.
Nor did I mention anyone starving - or homelessness.

I also didn't mention immigration/emigration, Direct Provision, clerical abuse and failure of the religious orders to meet their financial obligations, potholes (a mainstay of Irish political life), cancer testing f ups.... I will mention the trolley crisis in a minute...

Tell me - do you have an opinion on our education system? Lack of political accountability? Inability of those in charge of tendering processes to set realistic budgets? RCC intertwining with State services?
You know, those things I did actually rant about?

As for this "massive" turn around - yeah, I saw that in my local hospital Center of Excellence before Xmas as I was camped out on a chair for 3 days next to my elderly father on his trolley in a corridor trying to prevent him from leaving. Poor man has dementia and couldn't understand that the nightmare he was experiencing was healthcare. Nor did he derive any comfort from the fact that he was far from being alone in his misery. At least on the 2nd day we got his trolley moved to a less draughty bit of corridor and that was a "massive improvement". But I have the top cover VHI he would cry. The deluded fool.

Strangely enough "the majority are doing quite well" doesn't sound to me like a ringing endorsement of our society. It just sounds like a variation on the general theme of I'm alright Jack.

And I'm alright Jack is really just code for F everyone who isn't. A very shortsighted view because some day Jack might not be alright and who will be there to help poor Jack then?
Jack could lose his job.
Jack could have a serious accident.
Jack could get very very sick.
Jack might have a child who needs special supports.
Jack's wife might be told her smear test was clear but some time later oops.
Jack's Da could develop dementia.

Poor Jack. Once he was alright. He paid his stamps. Jack paid in so Jack's alright. Except now Jack needs the State to pay out but all the other Jacks say stop looking for something for nothing - can't you see the massive improvements all around you. Stop moaning - you could be living in the U.K and then where would you be?

Bannasidhe

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s only so much blaming of the RCC you can do in 2018. In any case we could and did build housing (if little else) after 1921.

The RCC is what the RCC is - I would expect them to act no differently.
I blame the governments who allowed them to intertwine themselves with State functions and continue to kowtow and divert funds in their general direction.

Yes, we did build housing. Lots of it. When we didn't have a gazunder to urinate in we managed to build social housing.

But then we sold it and didn't replace it because the market gods will provide.

Now we are apparently doing splendidly (keep the recovery going!) and we can't organise a portacabin modular house (land not included and must be purchased separately) for less than an estimated 191,000 (2015 figures so you know yourself...) and Mr O'Brien is cutting his own throat at that price.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Interesting, but I made no reference to the UK bar mentioning what was in place in 1922. I certainly didn't extol the UK as some sort of benchmark - I have been watching their society crumble since Thatcher decided to sell off the family silver and blame the E.U - although I do like how they occasionally jail MPs who have been caught being dodgy. We seem to like to re-elect them here.
Nor did I mention anyone starving - or homelessness.

I also didn't mention immigration/emigration, Direct Provision, clerical abuse and failure of the religious orders to meet their financial obligations, potholes (a mainstay of Irish political life), cancer testing f ups.... I will mention the trolley crisis in a minute...

Tell me - do you have an opinion on our education system? Lack of political accountability? Inability of those in charge of tendering processes to set realistic budgets? RCC intertwining with State services?
You know, those things I did actually rant about?

As for this "massive" turn around - yeah, I saw that in my local hospital Center of Excellence before Xmas as I was camped out on a chair for 3 days next to my elderly father on his trolley in a corridor trying to prevent him from leaving. Poor man has dementia and couldn't understand that the nightmare he was experiencing was healthcare. Nor did he derive any comfort from the fact that he was far from being alone in his misery. At least on the 2nd day we got his trolley moved to a less draughty bit of corridor and that was a "massive improvement". But I have the top cover VHI he would cry. The deluded fool.

Strangely enough "the majority are doing quite well" doesn't sound to me like a ringing endorsement of our society. It just sounds like a variation on the general theme of I'm alright Jack.

And I'm alright Jack is really just code for F everyone who isn't. A very shortsighted view because some day Jack might not be alright and who will be there to help poor Jack then?
Jack could lose his job.
Jack could have a serious accident.
Jack could get very very sick.
Jack might have a child who needs special supports.
Jack's wife might be told her smear test was clear but some time later oops.
Jack's Da could develop dementia.

Poor Jack. Once he was alright. He paid his stamps. Jack paid in so Jack's alright. Except now Jack needs the State to pay out but all the other Jacks say stop looking for something for nothing - can't you see the massive improvements all around you. Stop moaning - you could be living in the U.K and then where would you be?

I'm sorry to hear that about your father. What's the solution to all of your grievances? You mention political accountability - the next election, who do you vote for?

Franz Von Peppercorn

That trolly issue reminds me that none of us are really alright jack. With the increasing percentage of us getting older that’s the end of life situation for our parents, and probably for us.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The RCC is what the RCC is - I would expect them to act no differently.
I blame the governments who allowed them to intertwine themselves with State functions and continue to kowtow and divert funds in their general direction.

They actually ran hospitals well, and education (propaganda aside) not that badly. They haven’t been in charge of much for a generation. And I’m an atheist. From an atheist family actually.

Yes, we did build housing. Lots of it. When we didn't have a gazunder to urinate in we managed to build social housing.

Yes.

But then we sold it and didn't replace it because the market gods will provide.

Indeed. Thatcherism may eventually be the thing that kills capitalism.

Now we are apparently doing splendidly (keep the recovery going!) and we can't organise a portacabin modular house (land not included and must be purchased separately) for less than an estimated 191,000 (2015 figures so you know yourself...) and Mr O'Brien is cutting his own throat at that price.

Insane alright. It seems to me that we need to get the public sector building again ie builders as employees. Obviously some sub contractors will be private.

Bannasidhe

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear that about your father. What's the solution to all of your grievances? You mention political accountability - the next election, who do you vote for?

It more who do I not vote for.
Not FF or FG (but tbh I never have so no change there). I have moved on from the Civil War :P
Not Labour (never again!)
Not S.F (The closing of ranks and cries of he's entitled during inkgate showed them to be same-ol same-ol as t'udders).
Renua ... hahahahahahahahahaha. No.
Greens ... can't afford anymore fecking carbon taxes that are not being used to actually do anything environmentally speaking.
The PDs (are they still around?) - Thatcher lite - no thanks.

The Social Democrats haven't annoyed me yet. But there's time.



I actually would like to see the SDs get a chance but (with the exception of the PDs who managed to wag the dog) the support act in an Irish coalition govt are really just the Fall Guys.

EDIT TO ADD:
These aren't "my" grievances as you term them. These are areas that are patiently not functioning and we should all be grieved by that. Personally, I'm actually alright Jack but I'm not so foolish as to think the day won't come when I'm not.