Just found out my 13 year old dropped a subject in school without my prior knowledge

I did metalwork because my dad wanted me to. I wasn't very good at it and still suck at any DIY.
I did French because 13 year old me was told that you need a language. Can't speak a word of French.

I didn't do music, art or business. Things I'm good at.

Leave your kid alone and let him find his own way.

One eyed Jack

D13exile wrote: »

I’m divorced and have my kids half the time. My son just started first year last September and one of the subjects I advised him to pursue was Technical Graphics as it could lead to a career as an engineer or architect. Well tonight I found out that he dropped the subject a month ago for woodwork. I’m gobsmacked that the school didn’t advise me of this prior to letting him swap subjects. I’ve asked him if his mother knew and he said no. He said he approached his year head and asked her and she allowed him to change. I feel there’s more to this than he’s letting on but he said that’s what happened. I can’t believe the school would allow this without notifying the parents first. It’s possible that my ex does know and unfortunately the school does favour her with the school reports etc while I have to fight to get them.

What should I do? I feel he’s let me down by not discussing it with me. I’m annoyed at the school not calling me about my son dropping a subject.

There’s probably not a whole lot more to it than he’s letting on in respect of your sons subject choices at least. My own child’s school are very good at keeping the parents well informed about their children’s performance in school. It might be worth contacting the school and asking do they have an online portal where you can access information such as your child’s attendance records and exam results. Showing an active interest in your child’s education will make it far more likely he’ll see that you’re actually interested in his education in the here and now as opposed to some future point in his life that you’re aware of, but he couldn’t possibly be aware of as he has very little to relate it to. Are you an engineer or an architect yourself? Are you actively interested in his education?

The reason I’m asking those questions is because in order for your son to care about his education and his future, he has to see that you care about his education and his future. I’m not just talking one particular subject over another, but his education as a whole. For example, I know you only touched on it, but have you considered the effects of the breakdown of your marriage upon your son? I know in my own circumstances, our son went from achieving excellent results in school, to his latest results, which were, not to put too fine a point on it, but- distinctly average. They were well below what I know he’s capable of achieving. Part of this has of course been due to the fact that his mother and I separated last year and I’ve been his primary carer since then. It’s a good thing for him he enjoys German, because I can’t speak a word. He achieved excellent results in German, but his math results were abysmal. He’s struggling with algebra and I’m having a hard time trying to find time to help him. It also didn’t help that up to two weeks ago, his home life has been... chaotic, is putting it kindly.

All these factors are having an effect on his ability to think clearly and focus on his education. That’s my responsibility. To that end, the last two weeks has been giving the place a complete makeover from floors to ceilings, literally gutted every room and got rid of all the crap and clutter and old stuff we no longer needed or used that was just sitting there taking up space. I’ve also changed around my work schedule so I can make more time to help my son with study and getting out of the house together, cooking meals together (he’s a dab hand at cooking whereas I can’t boil an egg without setting off the smoke alarm!), and he sees that I’m taking an active interest in his life and his education and his future, as opposed to just advising him on what subjects he should do to enter any specific profession.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Leave your kid alone and let him find his own way.

Don’t be daft, his child is 13 and he’s still the child’s father and parent. It’s his responsibility to guide his child and act in what he believes are his child’s best interests. Leaving children alone to find their own way is exactly how they get lost. It doesn’t do anything to help their relationship either, which is what the OP came to the Parenting forum for advice on - parenting.

seamus

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, not quite. Some third-level courses do have prerequisite subjects - Higher Maths for engineering, Higher Chemistry for veterinary etc.

Yeah, but even if you don't, you're not locked out of those courses for life.

If you get to 21 without chemistry and realise you wanted to do Veterinary, there are ways to do it.

There's far too much emphasis on getting it all right on the first go, being a qualified adult pursuing a career by 23.

People need to chill out a bit and realise that the leaving cert is simply not that important.

witchgirl26

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

In some schools, there’s an option to drop science after first year actually. I was surprised to learn that, but there you go. It’s not treated as a core subject up to JC in every school. The science education of one of my good friends ended at 13, believe it or not.

I know science isn't usually treated as a core subject in most schools but I hadn't heard of people being able to drop it after 1st year. That's a bit mad. I hated studying science (and failed every exam up to my JC) but I'm still glad I did it and I found it interesting enough (just couldn't get it to stay in my head).

_Brian

Maybe he just loves woodwork.

OP work with him on this not against him. Talk to him about it and ask him to discuss major changes with you. Maybe he felt you wouldn’t listen, there’s likely a learning in there for you.

I did engineering and plenty on the course had no TG before starting, yes they had to work harder but that’s no harm.

This episode is more about how your family treat each other and communicate than it is about subject choices. Learn from it or you will find more and more decisions being made without your input.

Ghekko

You're entitled to be annoyed that your son was able to switch without consultation with yourself or your ex. We have to sign off on our kids choices. However if your son wants to do woodwork instead of TG then I'd let him. He may not have liked TG and he probably wouldn't do well if that was the case. Did the teacher give him a woodwork book to replace the TG book that was taken from him? If so then it's probably a fair swap, but if your TG book was more expensive you can request the difference back. If they didn't give him a woodwork book then request that they do or ask for the TG book to be returned or paid for. In any case I'd have a word with the school about their lack of communication going forward.

Gimme A Pound

Absolutely bizarre to think the school should contact parents to notify them of a subject change. And what you do from 12 to 16 regularly has no bearing on a person's future career - he's in first year, let him get the junior cert done first ffs. Surely it's best that he pick subjects he wants to do and enjoys? Good on him for knowing his mind. Maths is mandatory and that should help determine whether he's cut out for engineering or architecture - IF he wants to study them.

lawred2

Mathew Echoing Fang wrote: »

Absolutely bizarre to think the school should contact parents to notify them of a subject change. And what you do from 12 to 16 regularly has no bearing on a person's future career - he's in first year, let him get the junior cert done first ffs. Surely it's best that he pick subjects he wants to do and enjoys? Good on him for knowing his mind. Maths is mandatory and that should help determine whether he's cut out for engineering or architecture - IF he wants to study them.

absolutely bizarre? really? That's a bit strong no?

The lad is just out of primary school. Maths may be indeed mandatory but what if he decided to do foundation level maths for the junior cert? You think it's bizarre that a parent would want to be aware of such a decision?

Very few first years in secondary school are making decisions of long term consequence. So it's hardly bizarre parents wanting to be aware and involved in such decisions.

I would fully encourage and support the lad to do classes that he wants to do... but why would that preclude a parent's involvement?

Gimme A Pound

I just genuinely can't see how it's a matter to be flagged by the school. Obviously truancy, disruptiveness, poor performance et al - but this is an elective subject change in just first year! Maybe the school's policy is to ask the kid whether they have sought advice from their parent(s) and that's all that's required. The decision is for the student, nobody else. Maybe the school agreed it was the right idea following a review of his progress in TG class.

I dropped art for music in second year and nobody contacted my parents. They agreed it was the right call (as I was fecking terrible at art - and yet did it initially because of an ambition to be an interior designer). And the OP's workmates at the Christmas party were "gobsmacked"? They are easily gobsmacked. It's not nothing but it's not such a huge deal either.

I think the OP comes across as unreasonable. Feeling his son "let him down" - is he for real?! I understand parents and others who care, encouraging the child to do the best for themselves, but the OP - with that phrase - is indicating that he wants his son to fulfil his (dad's) ambition rather than his son's. And the OP only wants opinions he agrees with too, going by his strop. Very mature.

Kylen Numerous Vandal wrote: »

Every time I hear a teenager say they want to be "a pro gamer" or "social influencer" when they "grow up", I literally die a little inside. So it really isn't a silly comparison.



Ah sure while you're at it...give him your car keys? And your bank card. Let him 'learn about choices'. Do let us know how that works out for you?

That's not what "literally" means. Also nobody implied a thing about resorting to those kinds of measures. False equivalency. Pro gaming is a valid career choice now (although I agree they should have a plan and stupid as that "influencer" stuff is, unfortunately it can be lucrative also (although a plan B very very much needed).

Not that those avenues were mentioned though.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

witchgirl26 wrote: »

I know science isn't usually treated as a core subject in most schools but I hadn't heard of people being able to drop it after 1st year. That's a bit mad. I hated studying science (and failed every exam up to my JC) but I'm still glad I did it and I found it interesting enough (just couldn't get it to stay in my head).

I know, I was shocked too. My friend gave up studying science when she was 13. I actually thought that science was something that you HAD to study to JC but apparently not and some schools offer the option to drop it after first year. I really think it’s very few schools though and it mostly seems to be girls’ school which is probably just a bit of a throwback.

Mango Joe

Some really, really dumb responses on this thread along the lines of "shut up man, leave the kid make his way in the world aw-right, he's 13 now Dude - so chillax ok"?

Where are these replies coming from, the 13 year old rebellious kids on the Site?

The fact is that a 13 year should be making decisions with a little help, input and guidance from those who care about them and are responsible for them and the safeguarding of their future.

Also the average 13 year old does not have the necessary experience, level of responsibility or foresight to make every decision going.

I would be very put out and disappointed if my kid randomly dropped a subject without my knowledge that I thought was beneficial to him and that we'd agreed on just weeks previously.

Also I think its a legitimate query as to whether the school contacted the ex-wife and not the OP - Divorce is like that ex-partners will lie and cover up stuff to win favour with kids over their ex or for 107 other reasons.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

^^^^ As I said earlier in the thread, I distinctly recall telling my parents what my elective subjects were going to be, not asking. And I was a goody-two-shoes at that point, not rebellious in the slightest. With strict parents. But they had no say in what subjects I picked. Do you really think teenagers never make these decisions for themselves? And have no idea what interests them? By the end of primary school, I knew I loved art and leaned towards the sciences and maths in aptitude and interest. 12 and 13 year old kids have well-defined interests usually. And the curriculum is broad to allow kids plenty of wiggle room as they proceed through their secondary schooling.

TheBoyConor

Technical Graphics is a terrible subject. I was advised to do it but didn't as it seemed incredibly mundane. Looking at the stuff they did it was braindead tripe with no practical connection. Just copying line drawings for the most part. I did Technology instead and it was far more interesting and I learned far more.

I'm now a chartered engineer. Stop giving him grief over a fairly pointless junior cert subject. It's inconsequential.

One eyed Jack

Mathew Echoing Fang wrote: »

I just genuinely can't see how it's a matter to be flagged by the school. Obviously truancy, disruptiveness, poor performance et al - but this is an elective subject change in just first year! Maybe the school's policy is to ask the kid whether they have sought advice from their parent(s) and that's all that's required. The decision is for the student, nobody else. Maybe the school agreed it was the right idea following a review of his progress in TG class.

I don’t agree that the subjects a student chooses to study should be a decision for themselves alone. They’re 13, they generally don’t have a bulls notion about adulthood or how the decisions they make now for themselves could affect the opportunities that are open to them in the future. Their parents will naturally have a better idea of what kind of a future they want for their children, and will want to guide them in that direction. It’s perfectly natural that the OP would be put out he wasn’t consulted on a matter concerning his child’s education, particularly when their current circumstances leave him somewhat out of the loop.

Sure, it’s absolutely likely that the school will assume the children have talked to their parents about it (more times they simply won’t care, they don’t have the resources to care about each students welfare individually, and that’s the parents responsibility anyway), but my point is that simply because parents rely on the school and teachers to parent their children, doesn’t absolve parents of their responsibility to inform themselves about their children’s education and welfare. It’s more difficult when the parents are separated or divorced, but it’s not as impossible as the OP makes out either. To be honest their lack of knowledge of their child’s education just sounds like laziness or lack of interest in their child’s education on their part, which isn’t a concept exclusive to parents who are separated and divorced either.

I dropped art for music in second year and nobody contacted my parents. They agreed it was the right call (as I was fecking terrible at art - and yet did it initially because of an ambition to be an interior designer). And the OP's workmates at the Christmas party were "gobsmacked"? They are easily gobsmacked. It's not nothing but it's not such a huge deal either.

They’re either easily gobsmacked, or trying to be supportive of the OP, six of one, half a dozen of the other really as the OP’s circumstances aren’t likely to have any effect on their lives so they’re that much less likely to be particularly interested one way or the other in the way the school the OP’s child attends, is run, and they’re far more likely to be interested in how their own children are doing in their respective schools. If you’ve ever been on a school Board of Management or been involved in the parents association, you’ll know just how difficult it is to get parents interested in even their own children’s education!

I think the OP comes across as unreasonable. Feeling his son "let him down" - is he for real?! I understand parents and others who care, encouraging the child to do the best for themselves, but the OP - with that phrase - is indicating that he wants his son to fulfil his (dad's) ambition rather than his son's. And the OP only wants opinions he agrees with too, going by his strop. Very mature.

Meh, I don’t think the OP is being unreasonable at all. Of course parents are going to feel like their children have let them down when their children do something or even don’t do something that the parent isn’t aware of, or does something that goes against their wishes for their children. I don’t see anything unreasonable about that. It’s quite common, but parents don’t generally express those sentiments because they’re often more concerned with praising their little Johnny or Jenny to the high heavens and boasting about their achievements. Sure, they could easily be accused of living their dreams vicariously through their children in one sense, but it’s also just as likely that they want their children to have the opportunities that they didn’t, so in that sense at least, the OP’s perspective isn’t immediately unreasonable or unrealistic. Parents having ambitions for their children isn’t either uncommon or unreasonable.

One eyed Jack

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I know, I was shocked too. My friend gave up studying science when she was 13. I actually thought that science was something that you HAD to study to JC but apparently not and some schools offer the option to drop it after first year. I really think it’s very few schools though and it mostly seems to be girls’ school which is probably just a bit of a throwback.

Nah, it’s not just girls schools at all, it’s both single-sex and co-ed schools simply don’t have the resources to provide for teaching science subjects. It also has much to do with more and more students simply showing no interest in science subjects like chemistry, biology and physics. That’s why some schools if they’re clustered close together will provide resources in one subject and not in another, and the students from either school will go between schools - boys who want to do home economics, and girls who want to do technical graphics, metalwork, woodwork etc being some of the more common examples. I remember when I was in an all boys secondary school the girls would come up from the Convent to do physics and higher math. There weren’t too many boys went the other way though - to the Convent for Home Economics. I kinda wish I had now. I wouldn’t have been able to do physics, but at least I wouldn’t be constantly setting off the smoke alarm trying to boil an egg for my breakfast :pac:

The practical subjects are just as important as the academic subjects in giving a young person a more all-rounded education, but all too often it’s just an unfortunate reality that schools simply don’t have the resources. I can understand where the OP is coming from in that technical graphics is of course more likely to be helpful in a career as an architect or an engineer, but they are both massive, massive career fields in and of themselves, and transforming at such a phenomenal rate that by the time the OP’s child is doing their Leaving Certificate, they may well have picked up other skills that are also quite useful in a career in engineering or as an architect of some description. I say “some description” because I’m a systems architect, and technical graphics while it was a useful subject to have done in school, what I learned can’t really be applied to what I do now, which is like a mix of engineering, architecture and design.

I could probably program Alexa to boil an egg for me, but that would make the young lad redundant... hmm 🀔 :pac:

Gimme A Pound

Mango Joe wrote: »

Some really, really dumb responses on this thread along the lines of "shut up man, leave the kid make his way in the world aw-right, he's 13 now Dude - so chillax ok"?

Where are these replies coming from, the 13 year old rebellious kids on the Site?

The fact is that a 13 year should be making decisions with a little help, input and guidance from those who care about them and are responsible for them and the safeguarding of their future.

Also the average 13 year old does not have the necessary experience, level of responsibility or foresight to make every decision going.

I would be very put out and disappointed if my kid randomly dropped a subject without my knowledge that I thought was beneficial to him and that we'd agreed on just weeks previously.

I know the language used is not ideal (and of course 13 is too young for lots of decisions) but what people are saying is simply that it's the boy's subject, not his father's. It's not a vital subject for engineering or architecture in nearly five or six years. That's if the boy even wants or has the aptitude for those paths. The father is giving indications that that's what HE (dad) wants though.

Shouldn't he pick what he likes/is good at at this stage? My view is not that 13 is old enough but that it's too young for talk of third level and careers. And maths is mandatory anyway, plus he's likely doing science so that's the physics element covered.

It's not just a few weeks since he agreed to it either - it's over two months and he must have disliked it, so he chose an alternative. Is it really such a big deal?

Gimme A Pound

Of course parents have ambitions for their children - these should be based around what their children are good at/have a passion for, not what their parents would like them to do even if the child doesn't want to do it.

One eyed Jack

Mathew Echoing Fang wrote: »

Of course parents have ambitions for their children - these should be based around what their children are good at/have a passion for, not what their parents would like them to do even if the child doesn't want to do it.

I understand where you’re coming from, but I would see that as idealistic rather than realistic. There’s plenty for example my child doesn’t want to do and has no interest in that he has to be made do. He doesn’t grasp the long term benefits of personal hygiene, healthy eating and exercise for example, but I as his parent do understand how these things benefit him in the long term. If we were to stick solely to school subjects, he’d drop math in the morning if he was let, as well as a couple of other subjects (including the sciences, sorry ODB ) like history and geography. He’s passionate about languages, loves languages and all things IT related, and that’s fine, but he still needs an understanding of the basics in other subjects in order to better understand the world around him. It’s not just about passing either the Junior Cert or the Leaving Cert and securing a place in University, but it’s about setting him up for the rest of his life, because in a couple of years neither I nor his mother will be there to guide him.

I’d prefer that he travel and see a bit of the world and gain some maturity before he enrols in University tbh as I think in Ireland we’re sending people to third level education who are far too immature for it and hence the high dropout rates in first year across the whole range of courses on offer, but that’s a whole other story!

Gimme A Pound

Dunno about comparing an essential like personal hygiene to elective school subjects (and maths is non negotiable - can't be dropped) however yeah fair point - certain subjects are beneficial to get a broad feel for, e.g. science and business, however something as specific as tech graphics... that's covered by maths and science.

I mean yeah, if a kid says e.g. they want to be a "social influencer" (groan) you'd need to advise them of the pitfalls, but at the same time, I'd see it as a cue to nurture an interest in business studies. If they want to be like one of the forensic detectives on CSI? Biology and chemistry.

starface

I haven’t had a chance to read through all the replies so ignore me if I’m repeating stuff.

1. He can still study engineering etc without this. A H4 in maths and a H6 in a science subject is a requirement. As a maths teacher though I see lots of students putting themselves under massive pressure to study higher maths so just make sure it’s what he wants. That being said it’s good to keep him somewhere motivated. You don’t want his floating by with zero ambition. If he starts well it’s much easier to keep him going.

2. He is much better off studying subjects he enjoys as it’s a long six years and there is enough compulsory subjects. School refusal is a big big thing these days so try keep him interested and happy at school.

3. If you need the school to notify you before stuff like this happens just ring and ask them nicely if there is anything they can do for you. Don’t be that parent ringing and giving out. It was probably just a taster subject and he decided not to keep it on. Maybe I’m wrong but that’s what happens in my school. They try all the subjects and then three months in they pick.

ElizaBennett

I was in secondary school in the 80s and, as others have said, I completely made up my own mind about subject choices. Parents made a few remarks re options and things to consider but I made up my own mind completely. I was incredibly stubborn so they would have had zero chance of convincing me to do otherwise.

Having said that, my son went to boarding school and I found out in third year that he was dropping to ordinary level Irish. He had already changed classes and it was a fait acompli. I was very annoyed at the school for not even alerting me to give me the chance to talk it through with him but, at the same time, it's true that he is also stubborn and my remonstrances would have had little effect. I felt irritated by the school but really, my knowing would actually have made no diffeerence to the outcome. Bear this in mind, OP.

On the TG issue - I think it seems to be a subject that kids are either brilliant at or really struggle with. They either 'get it' or they don't. If they don't, then they'll really have a rotten time and it's pointless. My daughter finds it very easy and quite a relaxing subject as it's something you just work on in your own time and you get a break from the teacher's drone. But if she was finding any elective subject really hard I'd encourage her to change. Why make things harder?