Ireland is now only 82% Native Irish.

MadDog76

kneemos wrote: »

If the children of immigrants are born here surely they are native Irish?

According to who?

You're assuming those children, or their parents, want to be identified as Irish as if being Irish is the Holy Grail of national identity.

Peatys

kneemos wrote: »

People who get those Gene pool tests are a mix of all sorts.

How do you define genetically Irish?

Good strong mix of Germanic Celt, Franco Norman, nomadic Geal blood.

EDit

vladmydad wrote: »

It’s what’s mentioned in the census, I guess they mean Gaelic, which has been the dominant genetic identity , despite invasions, of the inhabitants of this island for thousands of years.

...and how does your average Joe assess their genetic identity? If it is from the census, it is probably based just on self-assessed nationality or place of birth

I’m not originally from Ireland, but my wife is and my sons were born here. In a census, they would be recorded as Irish, but I have sullied their genetic lineage with my evil non-Irish genes...hence, all these stats are meaningless really

_Brian

vladmydad wrote: »

But does anyone find the complete silence on the issue a little Orwellian, I mean it’s a radical societal change in just 20 years with unknown ramifications for future generations and yet it’s just not spoken of.

It’s just modern life, it doesn’t mean it’s going to be worse.

If people, (real Irish amd others)focused on being productive members of the Irish society and worried less about the colour of their neighbors skin and what faux god they pray to, we would be grand.

But people’s ingrained ignorance of wanting to see difference and draw lines around difference cause endless problems. People who fee entitled to be looked after and their lifestyle kept at the expense of workers, this is how ansociety gets dragged down.

Yer Da sells Avon

PirateShampoo wrote: »

What's Native?

My daughter is only half Irish with me being Welsh. She's born and raised here.

Is the kid in her class that was born here and has a Dublin accent but Polish parents, is he Native?

I think a more important question might be, 'does it matter' whether someone is or isn't 'native'?

To most people (away from AH anyway), it doesn't.

vladmydad

kneemos wrote: »

vladmydad wrote: »

No not genetically. Just like if I was born in Japan I’m not genetically Japanese.

People who get those Gene pool tests are a mix of all sorts.

How do you definitely genetically Irish?

But are you saying if my Irish parents went to Japan and gave birth to me I would share the same genetics as the ancient Japanese people ? So therefore am I Japanese ? Does ethnicity matter ? And if not then why do we link certain ethnicities with certain geographical locations eg Chinese in China.

kneemos

MadDog76 wrote: »

According to who?

You're assuming those children, or their parents, want to be identified as Irish as if being Irish is the Holy Grail of national identity.

They can identify as Norwegians, they're still native Irish.

Arthur Daley

It is a concern for a significant number of people. Plus large amounts of migration within 20 years into a country like Ireland, with no empire or history of foreign invasion, is especially worrying.

Really it's gotta be motivated by the desire to drive down wages, and fill up houses.

realitykeeper

vladmydad wrote: »

Without the racist, xenophobic accusations and all that crap, does anyone have any concerns about just how rapidly the Irish people are decreasing in Ireland ?
It’s a very recent phenomenon and given that immigration into Ireland is ever increasing and that the birth rates of the “new” Irish are dramatically higher than natives. It is inevitable that 82% will soon be 70% , 55%, 40% etc.

There is no debate in Irish media or politics about this and we have never voted on the issue. In fact it’s actually taboo. What are your thoughts?

To me native Ireland is Irish speaking, Catholic and white so to me the native population is very small which is a pity but it is a fact I came to terms with long before Ireland pivoted from a country of mass emigration thirty years ago to immigration now.

The reason I am not inclined to bemoan these changes is that I feel it the Irish have given up on themselves in not reviving the language, in failing to get rid of the drink culture and in our failure to adopt a work centric culture. I feel secularism is a bad development and that has happened independently of immigration so there again the Irish have failed.

Being proud of being Irish is fine but when one is constantly disappointed, one tends to separate the chaff from the wheat or the good from the bad. I think where you have a people who are consistently doing the wrong thing, adopting the wrong attitudes and who have misplaced values, such a people are due a comeuppance. Elsewhere, there are countries with good people who have the right ideas and values. I think good people are leaving Ireland while people of questionable caliber remain. As for the immigrants, I think the checks and balances are flimsy at best but what else would you expect from the Irish.

Christy Browne

enricoh wrote: »

According to the last census 18% foreign born, in reality I'd be surprised if its not close to 25%

So me being born in London to two Irish parents and moving home when I was 4 means I’m not native Irish?

There’s thousands in the same situation. Where you are born isn’t the ultimate litmus test of someones “Irishness”

recedite

coastwatch wrote: »

It's a great development, we badly needed to add some "good lookin" genes to the irish gene pool, we were a bunch of pale and pasty freckle heads for far too long.

Have you anything to say that is not based on racism? Self loathing racism is as ugly as any other kind.

Fighting Tao

vladmydad wrote: »

But are you saying if my Irish parents went to Japan and gave birth to me I would share the same genetics as the ancient Japanese people ? So therefore am I Japanese ? Does ethnicity matter ? And if not then why do we link certain ethnicities with certain geographical locations eg Chinese in China.

You have some African, Japanese, Russian etc DNA (not necessarily those three but you do have DNA from multiple continents). You are not a true native! Damn...how will you live with yourself?

MadDog76

kneemos wrote: »

They can identify as Norwegians, they're still native Irish.

According to........ you? Lol

You're of the mistaken belief that your opinion somehow changes reality/facts..... it doesn't.

tigger123

vladmydad wrote: »

God I hope not, I’m just looking for a genuine discussion as it’s non existent anywhere in Irish media

You do have an agenda here, and it's very clear by looking at your posts in this thread.

vladmydad

realitykeeper wrote: »

vladmydad wrote: »

Without the racist, xenophobic accusations and all that crap, does anyone have any concerns about just how rapidly the Irish people are decreasing in Ireland ?
It’s a very recent phenomenon and given that immigration into Ireland is ever increasing and that the birth rates of the “new” Irish are dramatically higher than natives. It is inevitable that 82% will soon be 70% , 55%, 40% etc.

There is no debate in Irish media or politics about this and we have never voted on the issue. In fact it’s actually taboo. What are your thoughts?

To me native Ireland is Irish speaking, Catholic and white so to me the native population is very small which is a pity but it is a fact I came to terms with long before Ireland pivoted from a country of mass emigration thirty years ago to immigration now.

The reason I am not inclined to bemoan these changes is that I feel it the Irish have given up on themselves in not reviving the language, in failing to get rid of the drink culture and in our failure to adopt a work centric culture. I feel secularism is a bad development and that has happened independently of immigration so there again the Irish have failed.

Being proud of being Irish is fine but when one is constantly disappointed, one tends to separate the chaff from the wheat or the good from the bad. I think where you have a people who are consistently doing the wrong thing, adopting the wrong attitudes and who have misplaced values, such a people are due a comeuppance. Elsewhere, there are countries with good people who have the right ideas and values. I think good people are leaving Ireland while people of questionable caliber remain. As for the immigrants, I think the checks and balances are flimsy at best but what else would you expect from the Irish.

Absolutely, there is a strange thing happening in most of Western Europe. A sense of decline and retirement. As though Europe’s best days are behind it. A sense of shame about its past and a lack of appreciation of its incredible contribution to the world. I fear Cultural Marxism has done its job.

stimpson

Peatys wrote: »

Good strong Germanic Celt blood.

Genetically we are Spanish, not German. We seem to have adopted Celtic art and culture from trading with Celtic tribes from Germany which is why it was assumed we were Celts, but the genetics don’t support it.

Deub

vladmydad wrote: »

But does anyone find the complete silence on the issue a little Orwellian, I mean it’s a radical societal change in just 20 years with unknown ramifications for future generations and yet it’s just not spoken of.

But why is it an issue?
It is easier to travel now than 100 years ago so it is only normal to see this change.

kneemos

MadDog76 wrote: »

According to........ you? Lol

You're of the mistaken belief that your opinion somehow changes reality/facts..... it doesn't.

It's an indisputable fact that if you are born and raised here you are a native Irish.
If you reject Irish culture for another you are a native Irish that has rejected Irish culture.

Do people care how low that % gets? Would it matter if there was a hypothetical surge in people moving over, say the UN migration pact actually ends up being implemented as its written, would it matter to the people on this thread if the foreign born population increased so much that in their kids adulthood the population born here became something like 50% or less?

Would that be an issue

vladmydad

tigger123 wrote: »

vladmydad wrote: »

God I hope not, I’m just looking for a genuine discussion as it’s non existent anywhere in Irish media

You do have an agenda here, and it's very clear by looking at your posts in this thread.

Of course I do. Talking about this is healthy and good. Stifling debate, as you are trying to do, is a dangerous thing and can have terrible consequences. So let’s talk about the experiment that is multiculturalism and see it’s benefits and negatives.

Peatys

stimpson wrote: »

Genetically we are Spanish, not German. We seem to have adopted Celtic art and culture from trading with Celtic tribes from Germany which is why it was assumed we were Celts, but the genetics don’t support it.

Post edited

vladmydad

Deub wrote: »

vladmydad wrote: »

But does anyone find the complete silence on the issue a little Orwellian, I mean it’s a radical societal change in just 20 years with unknown ramifications for future generations and yet it’s just not spoken of.

But why is it an issue?
It is easier to travel now than 100 years ago so it is only normal to see this change.

When nations lose their sense of identity, historically it’s a disaster. I truly fear that things will get very very ugly in Europe over the next 50 years.

MadDog76

kneemos wrote: »

It's an indisputable fact that if you are born and raised here you are a native Irish.
If you reject Irish culture for another you are a native Irish that has rejected Irish culture.

Again, just based on YOUR opinion
........ so your "fact" is, in fact, being disputed.

Fighting Tao

MadDog76 wrote: »

Again, just based on YOUR opinion
........ so your "fact" is, in fact, being disputed.

Opinions are like aholes, everyone has one. This raises the question, what is factually 'Native Irish'?

Deub

vladmydad wrote: »

When nations lose their sense of identity, historically it’s a disaster. I truly fear that things will get very very ugly in Europe over the next 50 years.

Do you have an example?
I am not irish so I would like to know the potential risk I brought to Ireland.

TCM

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

Hung drawn without any trial etc.

Plumbthedepths wrote:

My family came to Ulster during the 'Plantation' from Scotland before that from Norway.

Give back the land.

Fighting Tao

Deub wrote: »

Do you have an example?
I am not irish so I would like to know the potential risk I brought to Ireland.

As a typical Irish person who has DNA that is from across the world due millennia of migration, I would also like to know what threat you pose me.

Maybe I should have said 'Native Irish person'. Although, I'm still waiting on the official definition of what that means.

El Weirdo

vladmydad wrote: »

... I’m just looking for a genuine discussion...

If you blow a dog whistle, you're gonna end up surrounded by dogs.

vladmydad

Deub wrote: »

vladmydad wrote: »

When nations lose their sense of identity, historically it’s a disaster. I truly fear that things will get very very ugly in Europe over the next 50 years.

Do you have an example?
I am not irish so I would like to know the potential risk I brought to Ireland.

Yugoslavia, western Roman Empire, Austria-Hungary

Fighting Tao

vladmydad wrote: »

Yugoslavia, western Roman Empire, Austria-Hungary

Are they all going to invade Ireland in the next 50 years? :pac:

vladmydad

El Weirdo wrote: »

vladmydad wrote: »

... I’m just looking for a genuine discussion...

If you blow a dog whistle, you're gonna end up surrounded by dogs.

So mass immigration cannot be discussed ?

vladmydad

El Weirdo wrote: »

vladmydad wrote: »

... I’m just looking for a genuine discussion...

If you blow a dog whistle, you're gonna end up surrounded by dogs.

So mass immigration cannot be discussed ?

Fighting Tao

vladmydad wrote: »

So mass immigration cannot be discussed ?

You are not discussing anything. You ignore any posts that contravene your beliefs.

vladmydad

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Deub wrote: »

Do you have an example?
I am not irish so I would like to know the potential risk I brought to Ireland.

As a typical Irish person who has DNA that is from across the world due millennia of migration, I would also like to know what threat you pose me.

Maybe I should have said 'Native Irish person'. Although, I'm still waiting on the official definition of what that means.

So then there are no Irish ?

batgoat

vladmydad wrote: »

When nations lose their sense of identity, historically it’s a disaster. I truly fear that things will get very very ugly in Europe over the next 50 years.

Honestly you guys and your obsession with "native Irish" or "native British" is a tad sickening... It's a not so subtle of being racist. Your numbers aren't shocking or upsetting, we've become slightly more mixed in background. What's the harm?

It's also probably better for the nations genetics to actually variety in the nation rather than everyone having a background that doesn't exit the nation.

You can rave about unforeseen consequences but the reality is that it doesn't negatively affect us. Maybe go over to stormfront to have a proper discussion about it? They'll totally agree with you.

Fighting Tao

vladmydad wrote: »

So then there are no Irish ?

Not as ethnically pure as you seem to think. We Irish are a mishmash of loads of different nationalities and cultures. Do some reading up on DNA and migration of people and you'll see that there is no such thing as a pure Irish person. Ethnic Irish Travellers are as close as it gets and they are a tiny percentage of the population.

y0ssar1an22

Fighting Tao wrote: »

You are not discussing anything. You ignore any posts that contravene your beliefs.

what are your belief on the matter do you mind sharing?

ablelocks

vladmydad wrote: »

Without the racist, xenophobic accusations and all that crap, does anyone have any concerns about just how rapidly the Irish people are decreasing in Ireland ?
It’s a very recent phenomenon and given that immigration into Ireland is ever increasing and that the birth rates of the “new” Irish are dramatically higher than natives. It is inevitable that 82% will soon be 70% , 55%, 40% etc.

There is no debate in Irish media or politics about this and we have never voted on the issue. In fact it’s actually taboo. What are your thoughts?

if vlad is indeed your Dad, then it suggests that you're not exactly 100% "native" yourself.

MadDog76

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Opinions are like aholes, everyone has one. This raises the question, what is factually 'Native Irish'?

True....... the "official" definition of native is simply to be born in country X but this definition has always been disputed for very valid reasons....... native Americans, for example, take issue with Donald Trump being defined as a native American.
In fact, most Americans will define themselves as Irish, Italian, Polish etc. based on their genetic history whilst the rest of the world will define them as simply Americans or, if we're being courteous, Irish-American/Italian-American etc.

So what is "native" isn't easily defined.

Calina

The relevant statistic for Luxembourg is 52%.

Any intelligent person is aware that human history is full of migratory movements. We wouldn't actually have got to Ireland otherwise. Irish is not a genetic construct it is a cultural, political and geographic construct.

Discussions around native this and native that tend to miss that point. But I imagine the more people want to buy stupid DNA tests the more hung up on purity they will get. This discussion about native Irish is designed to be exclusionary.

vladmydad

batgoat wrote: »

vladmydad wrote: »

When nations lose their sense of identity, historically it’s a disaster. I truly fear that things will get very very ugly in Europe over the next 50 years.

Honestly you guys and your obsession with "native Irish" or "native British" is a tad sickening... It's a not so subtle of being racist. Your numbers aren't shocking or upsetting, we've become slightly more mixed in background. What's the harm?

It's also probably better for the nations genetics to actually variety in the nation rather than everyone having a background that doesn't exit the nation.

You can rave about unforeseen consequences but the reality is that it doesn't negatively affect us. Maybe go over to stormfront to have a proper discussion about it? They'll totally agree with you.

Your post sums up the malaise of Europeans. We’ve been browbeaten into believing the we’re the bad guys and our time is up. We’re witnessing the last days of Europe.

fryup

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Ethnic Irish Travellers are as close as it gets and they are a tiny percentage of the population.

yep, they're true-blue irish and yet everyone hates them :cool: self loathing irish?

kneemos

realitykeeper wrote: »

To me native Ireland is Irish speaking, Catholic and white so to me the native population is very small which is a pity but it is a fact I came to terms with long before Ireland pivoted from a country of mass emigration thirty years ago to immigration now.

The reason I am not inclined to bemoan these changes is that I feel it the Irish have given up on themselves in not reviving the language, in failing to get rid of the drink culture and in our failure to adopt a work centric culture. I feel secularism is a bad development and that has happened independently of immigration so there again the Irish have failed.

Being proud of being Irish is fine but when one is constantly disappointed, one tends to separate the chaff from the wheat or the good from the bad. I think where you have a people who are consistently doing the wrong thing, adopting the wrong attitudes and who have misplaced values, such a people are due a comeuppance. Elsewhere, there are countries with good people who have the right ideas and values. I think good people are leaving Ireland while people of questionable caliber remain. As for the immigrants, I think the checks and balances are flimsy at best but what else would you expect from the Irish.

What a Rosy picture you have of old Ireland.
The truth is a history of mass migration,poverty,sweeping problems under the carpet, corruption and an inability to govern ourselves effectively.

It really wasn't better in the good old days,it was a miserable ****hole.

Fighting Tao

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

what are your belief on the matter do you mind sharing?

I think I've made it clear that the point raised is in the OP is moot because we are all a mishmash of societies/cultures/nationalities(these change with border changes).

Diceicle

_Brian wrote: »

I don’t care who comes and goes as long as they are decent people and contribute to society.
We have an awful problem with “Irish natives” who sponge, sponge, sponge and have done for generations, they pop out kids at a savage rate and so the cycle goes on. This needs to be addressed before we worry about housing poor unfortunates coming from active war zones with their families.

I would love to see a swifter asylum process where decisions were made quickly and those proven to be genuine cases given permits to work and those not making the cut sent immediately back to their point of origin.

Agree with much of the above, unfortunately, we are also adding too high a percentage of low-skill Africans to our talent pool (https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1107/1009164-esri_migrants/) while at the same time not changing the asylum system to remove those who do not meet the criteria.

recedite

Deleted User wrote: »

Do people care how low that % gets? Would it matter if there was a hypothetical surge in people moving over, say the UN migration pact actually ends up being implemented as its written, would it matter to the people on this thread if the foreign born population increased so much that in their kids adulthood the population born here became something like 50% or less?

Would that be an issue

That's an interesting question, and while it seems difficult or impossible to answer, it is in fact quite simple to answer.
The answer is No, not after it happens. And before it happens, they are mostly oblivious to it.


After it gets to that level, the people redefine themselves as "a nation of immigrants" and "the majority" are quite happy then with that situation.
You can see this effect working in London and some of the other cities of the UK. They have a very different attitude to issues such as Brexit when compared with some other parts of England that are still inhabited by "native" English people.

vladmydad

Calina wrote: »

The relevant statistic for Luxembourg is 52%.

Any intelligent person is aware that human history is full of migratory movements. We wouldn't actually have got to Ireland otherwise. Irish is not a genetic construct it is a cultural, political and geographic construct.

Discussions around native this and native that tend to miss that point. But I imagine the more people want to buy stupid DNA tests the more hung up on purity they will get. This discussion about native Irish is designed to be exclusionary.

But native refers to a Gaelic gene that is present throughout most of the last 12,500 years. The Irish people who carry this gene are what’s considered native. We are a race of people just as the Japanese and Chinese are. It’s ok to be proud of it, just as ancient tribes in Africa are proud. Stop this reflexive fear of any mention of ethnicity.

Fighting Tao

vladmydad wrote: »

Your post sums up the malaise of Europeans. We’ve been browbeaten into believing the we’re the bad guys and our time is up. We’re witnessing the last days of Europe.

Last days of Europe. How so?

Also, borders change and have changed many times. Once upon a time there were no border lines drawn on a map. With border changes nationalities of people born in those areas will not be the same as people born in those areas in the past.

Mrs OBumble

realitykeeper wrote: »

To me native Ireland is Irish speaking, Catholic and white.

Dem dam athiests, coming over here and stealing all our peoples!


FWIW, I know some ethnically-African kids who speak Irish better than your average white Catholic who was born here.

Den14

Deub wrote: »

Do you have an example?
I am not irish so I would like to know the potential risk I brought to Ireland.

It's the potential 'ghettos' that may establish in areas that could be a concern.
Integration is so important.
And the following video demonstrates when this doesn't happen. There is a recently made video where a female journalist attempts to walk around a suburb of paris... A good eye opener

https://youtu.be/RlNCVQGFrMU