Strokestown **Mod Note in Post #4461**

relax carry on

simongurnick wrote: »

not sure, i don't know him. But I saw someone post earlier they were looking to do a grand a month.

A grand a month on ever increasing debt? That's around 41 years for his tax debt alone if interest wasn't accruing on it.

Considering it looks like nothing was paid on his mortgage for years and he has a history of being a bad debtor why would anyone he owes money too settle for such a paltry amount. This isn't someone down on their luck who has tried their best. This is a chancer who has issues with his financial responsibilities.

Danzy

Bringing the Loyalists in has really put the kibosh on the sale of this.

People are reluctant to buy seized assets but add that into the story and people will run miles.

Would you touch it if the Kinahan gang were involved in anyway, no, then who'll touch it when people who make them look like a school gang are in the frame.

Should he pay up, certainly, has he been to date, who knows , if he had it would not necessarily stop a hedge fund, we have seen that already.

It is a bit much to be going on about the rule of law when your getting involved with people who'd happily shoot Guards Judges and a few neighbours up there for being rowdy taigs.

Skylinehead

simongurnick wrote: »

you sure that last part is true? We're talking about interest rates, not insurance premiums.

It's no coincidence that our interest rates are so high compared to the rest of Europe.

simongurnick

relax carry on wrote: »

A grand a month on ever increasing debt? That's around 41 years for his tax debt alone if interest wasn't accruing on it.

Considering it looks like nothing was paid on his mortgage for years and he has a history of being a bad debtor why would anyone he owes money too settle for such a paltry amount. This isn't someone down on their luck who has tried their best. This is a chancer who has issues with his financial responsibilities.

so how did they lend to him in the first place?

JCJCJC

bb12 wrote: »

Even the presence of a valid court order is in doubt. They appear to have proper legal representation now, so maybe the actual facts will emerge in time but for now nobody really knows anything.
.

Consulting a solicitor after a High Court repossession order has been executed is like buying a box of condoms after your girlfriend announces she’s expecting twins.

Allinall

Danzy wrote: »

Bringing the Loyalists in has really put the kibosh on the sale of this.

People are reluctant to buy seized assets but add that into the story and people will run miles.

Would you touch it if the Kinahan gang were involved in anyway, no, then who'll touch it when people who make them look like a school gang are in the frame.

Should he pay up, certainly, has he been to date, who knows , if he had it would not necessarily stop a hedge fund, we have seen that already.

It is a bit much to be going on about the rule of law when your getting involved with people who'd happily shoot Guards Judges and a few neighbours up there for being rowdy taigs.

Which of these guys shot guards or judges?

simongurnick

Nixonbot wrote: »

It's no coincidence that our interest rates are so high compared to the rest of Europe.

any facts to back that up?

h2005

simongurnick wrote: »

any facts to back that up?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/mortgage-rates-in-ireland-are-highest-in-europe-1.3564370

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/mortgage-rates-higher-ireland-compared-eu.html

A particularly relevant quote:

"One of the reasons for higher rates cited by the Central Bank – is that there is more risk of default on mortgages in Ireland. For example – in France, they have 3% of loans classed as “Non Performing” . In Germany it is 1.87% , Spain 4.53%. Here in Ireland the rate is much higher at 11.23% ( Figures from ECB). So the banks try to get more revenue from mortgage payers to cover the higher general risk of non payment."

Wheeliebin30

h2005 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/mortgage-rates-in-ireland-are-highest-in-europe-1.3564370

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/mortgage-rates-higher-ireland-compared-eu.html

A particularly relevant quote:

"One of the reasons for higher rates cited by the Central Bank – is that there is more risk of default on mortgages in Ireland. For example – in France, they have 3% of loans classed as “Non Performing” . In Germany it is 1.87% , Spain 4.53%. Here in Ireland the rate is much higher at 11.23% ( Figures from ECB). So the banks try to get more revenue from mortgage payers to cover the higher general risk of non payment."

Facts aren’t legit around here it seems.

bb12

h2005 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/mortgage-rates-in-ireland-are-highest-in-europe-1.3564370

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/mortgage-rates-higher-ireland-compared-eu.html

A particularly relevant quote:

"One of the reasons for higher rates cited by the Central Bank – is that there is more risk of default on mortgages in Ireland. For example – in France, they have 3% of loans classed as “Non Performing” . In Germany it is 1.87% , Spain 4.53%. Here in Ireland the rate is much higher at 11.23% ( Figures from ECB). So the banks try to get more revenue from mortgage payers to cover the higher general risk of non payment."

from the same article quoted above:

The banks have long maintained that the higher rates reflected the elevated risk of lending into the Irish market, but in reality the premium was there to compensate for loss-making tracker portfolios.

Skylinehead

simongurnick wrote: »

any facts to back that up?

Not very difficult, as h2005 as shown, plus a simple google:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/mortgage-rates-in-ireland-are-highest-in-europe-1.3564370

relax carry on

simongurnick wrote: »

so how did they lend to him in the first place?

Because the loan was taken out years back before his Revenue issues. Looks like KBC have been trying to sort this since 2009.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/roscommon-eviction-kbc-seeking-debt-repayment-since-2009-1.3736042

Mrsmum

goat2 wrote: »

I fully agree with you, If he were a chancer and not caring, the neighbours would not have been so angry about what happened to him, His side is not fully told I should think.
It would be good to hear him speak of what really is going on,

I totally agree with this too. I grew up in a rural village and locals would have a near perfect take on each other's situations and no meas on a chancer getting fat & rolling in money while paying for nothing. Begrudgery alone would have them pissed off with him if that was the case. It is really telling imo that his neighbours and people in the local town are vocally supporting him.

alias no.9

simongurnick wrote: »

But that's the point. They are not comparable. In one case the farmer is being held to the consequences of not supporting the debt. In the case of the banks etc. the vast vast majority weren't.

The owners of the Irish banks, the share holders in the banks, had their holdings wiped out, reduced to zero. The state intervened to stop the entire customer base from being wiped out too. You can argue the merits of that on another thread but it's simply not correct to say nobody was held to account.

Danzy

Allinall wrote: »

Which of these guys shot guards or judges?

What are you on about. Read it again.

alias no.9

bb12 wrote: »

from the same article quoted above:

The banks have long maintained that the higher rates reflected the elevated risk of lending into the Irish market, but in reality the premium was there to compensate for loss-making tracker portfolios.

Trackers that are being paid to schedule are not loss making

BattleCorp

mikeym wrote: »

Maybe they might come to an arrangement and come up with a repayment plan.

Too late. The bank own the property now. There'll be no repayment plan.

simongurnick

h2005 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/mortgage-rates-in-ireland-are-highest-in-europe-1.3564370

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/mortgage-rates-higher-ireland-compared-eu.html

A particularly relevant quote:

"One of the reasons for higher rates cited by the Central Bank – is that there is more risk of default on mortgages in Ireland. For example – in France, they have 3% of loans classed as “Non Performing” . In Germany it is 1.87% , Spain 4.53%. Here in Ireland the rate is much higher at 11.23% ( Figures from ECB). So the banks try to get more revenue from mortgage payers to cover the higher general risk of non payment."

So, that's the banks story. Main reason is they lost their holes on the tracker products and then decided not to pass on any interest rate reductions to the customers...but should we be surprised while lemmings like you lap it up.

alias no.9

simongurnick wrote: »

So, that's the banks story. Main reason is they lost their holes on the tracker products and then decided not to pass on any interest rate reductions to the customers...but should we be surprised while lemmings like you lap it up.

Trackers that are being paid to schedule are not loss making, they cannot be milked to cover other losses but they are not loss making.

feargale

Patww79 wrote: »

But getting the likes of that to come into our country to force people out? They should have been chopped up the minute they came near the property.

Bad as the banks are, and they are very, very bad, I would rather be at their mercy than at the mercy of the lowlife scum who camouflage their criminality in a fantastical cloak of "patriotism." I would have thought the illicit drug market would be particularly bullish at this time of year and would keep these traitors too busy to pose as "police."

BattleCorp

Like I said it’s no excuse for shirking your responsibilities.

The ‘Top’ didn’t force this man to take out loans he couldn’t afford. It was his choice and his alone.

Who said he couldn't afford the loan? Maybe he just didn't bother his hole paying it back.

There was mention of him not making a payment on it for 14 years. I can't verify that so it might not be true.

simongurnick

relax carry on wrote: »

Because the loan was taken out years back before his Revenue issues. Looks like KBC have been trying to sort this since 2009.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/roscommon-eviction-kbc-seeking-debt-repayment-since-2009-1.3736042

I suspect they didnt do their due diligence. just like they didn't do their due diligence ahead of this debacle.
At this point, they havent got their money, the asset and it's a PR disaster. Clowns.

simongurnick

alias no.9 wrote: »

The owners of the Irish banks, the share holders in the banks, had their holdings wiped out, reduced to zero. The state intervened to stop the entire customer base from being wiped out too. You can argue the merits of that on another thread but it's simply not correct to say nobody was held to account.

Who went to jail?

simongurnick

alias no.9 wrote: »

Trackers that are being paid to schedule are not loss making, they cannot be milked to cover other losses but they are not loss making.

Why did banks offer to buy people out of those products?

Allinall

simongurnick wrote: »

Who went to jail?

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.thejournal.ie/bankers-jailed-financial-crisis-ireland-4082033-Jun2018/%3famp=1

alias no.9

simongurnick wrote: »

Who went to jail?

Who in the family in question is going to jail for anything to do with the loan? Someone took a financial risk and lost their financial stake. In the case of the bank shareholders, the shares were rendered worthless, in the case of the farmer, he's lost the collateral he put up against the loan. Anything done to lessen the value of that collateral actually renders the farmer in a worse financial position.

h2005

simongurnick wrote: »

So, that's the banks story. Main reason is they lost their holes on the tracker products and then decided not to pass on any interest rate reductions to the customers...but should we be surprised while lemmings like you lap it up.

Have a read of page 6 here:

https://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/Press/PressPublicationsdoclib3.nsf/vPages/Newsroom~ibec-publishes-latest-economic-outlook-report-12-11-2018/$file/Ibec+Quarterly+Economic+Outlook+Q3+2018.pdf

Yeah I'm the lemming here:rolleyes:

simongurnick

Allinall wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.thejournal.ie/bankers-jailed-financial-crisis-ireland-4082033-Jun2018/%3famp=1

4 people...wow

alias no.9

simongurnick wrote: »

Why did banks offer to buy people out of those products?

Before the ECB stepped in with its bond buying scheme, the banks were for a period of time at the mercy of international capital markets, they were for a while loss making but they are not loss making right now and haven't been for several years. Very few offers were made to buy people out of products, if I were to speculate it was simply a sample of customers to gauge reaction.

simongurnick

h2005 wrote: »

Have a read of page 6 here:

https://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/Press/PressPublicationsdoclib3.nsf/vPages/Newsroom~ibec-publishes-latest-economic-outlook-report-12-11-2018/$file/Ibec+Quarterly+Economic+Outlook+Q3+2018.pdf

Yeah I'm the lemming here:rolleyes:

that's related to SME's not individuals

relax carry on

simongurnick wrote: »

I suspect they didnt do their due diligence. just like they didn't do their due diligence ahead of this debacle.
At this point, they havent got their money, the asset and it's a PR disaster. Clowns.

You suspect they didn't and I suspect they did. Woohoo, random statements are fun.

Here's why I suspect they did. If the borrower wanted to press the due diligence angle I'm sure his solicitor would have run with it anytime from 2009 to August 2018.

From the Irish Times article.

"High Court records show that KBC lodged proceedings against Michael Anthony McGann in July 2009 and that a possession order was awarded in the case in 2013. The size of the debt is not known but is understood to be in excess of €300,000.

It appears the 2013 possession order was not acted on. It is understood that attempts by the bank to negotiate a solution were unsuccessful. New affidavits were filed in the case in subsequent years. A renewal of the possession order was issued in June 2017. Mr McGann, who was legally represented, swore a new affidavit the following month, and a possession order was issued in August of this year.

Security men
It is understood Mr McGann’s home was visited by a representative of the county sheriff’s office in September and he advised that he would have to leave the property. On December 9th, the house was called on again and the occupants told that possession would be taken of the house two days later.

The court had told the bank it could take possession of the house at 1pm on December 11th and on that date papers to that effect were served by an agent of the sheriff. Security men who attended were engaged by the bank."

simongurnick

alias no.9 wrote: »

Before the ECB stepped in with its bond buying scheme, the banks were for a period of time at the mercy of international capital markets, they were for a while loss making but they are not loss making right now and haven't been for several years. Very few offers were made to buy people out of products, if I were to speculate it was simply a sample of customers to gauge reaction.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2011/apr/14/irelands-dirty-little-secret-tracker-mortgages

Lefty Bicek

alias no.9 wrote: »

Trackers that are being paid to schedule are not loss making, they cannot be milked to cover other losses but they are not loss making.

Worth remembering that the tracker mortgage scandal however, led to provisions (funds set aide to pay for future losses) of a combined figure of E900m !

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/0118/934146-tracker-mortgage-update/

simongurnick

relax carry on wrote: »

You suspect they didn't and I suspect they did. Woohoo, random statements are fun.

Here's why I suspect they did. If the borrower wanted to press the due diligence angle I'm sure his solicitor would have run with it anytime from 2009 to August 2018.

From the Irish Times article.

"High Court records show that KBC lodged proceedings against Michael Anthony McGann in July 2009 and that a possession order was awarded in the case in 2013. The size of the debt is not known but is understood to be in excess of €300,000.

It appears the 2013 possession order was not acted on. It is understood that attempts by the bank to negotiate a solution were unsuccessful. New affidavits were filed in the case in subsequent years. A renewal of the possession order was issued in June 2017. Mr McGann, who was legally represented, swore a new affidavit the following month, and a possession order was issued in August of this year.

Security men
It is understood Mr McGann’s home was visited by a representative of the county sheriff’s office in September and he advised that he would have to leave the property. On December 9th, the house was called on again and the occupants told that possession would be taken of the house two days later.

The court had told the bank it could take possession of the house at 1pm on December 11th and on that date papers to that effect were served by an agent of the sheriff. Security men who attended were engaged by the bank."

I'm not talking about it as defence for the borrower. I'm talking about from the standpoint that KBC is a poorly run bank that does not effectivelly manage its loan portfolio,

Danzy

BattleCorp wrote: »

Too late. The bank own the property now. There'll be no repayment plan.

They won't be able to sell it though so that is a different problem for them.

Drifter50

BattleCorp wrote: »

Too late. The bank own the property now. There'll be no repayment plan.

Bank may own the property now but it is never going to be sold in the future. This fiasco will stay with this property forever and no-one will buy it and if anyone does try to buy it, see what happens.

Seriously, there is extraordinary naievety being shown in some of the posts here. At the end of the day, the history of land being stolen, taken etc by British and foreign landlords goes away back in the west of Ireland.

If it was`nt so serious an issue, the stuff flying about on the Whats App trails down here show what the local people really think although its thinly veiled behind a "jokey" sort of description. " Hard border west of the Shannon from Athlone to Carrick" and " LVF out of Roscommon " etc etc

Poor decision making by KBC tho. It was clearly a non Irish approach to an Irish problem caused the issue. No-one thinking clearly and locally would employ this Craigavon bunch to collect a debt in the most Republican area of Leitrim / Roscommon. You only need to scratch the surface to see the underlying issues here and when you mix a bank into it, you might as well throw petrol on a chemical bonfire

I've Motor Neuron Disease, AMA

gandalf wrote: »

TBH you're right I am worried about the implications for those that are in genuine distress. These guys aren't and the sort of hysterics that has occurred over this will push the banks to dump all their problem loans to vulture funds and then those who have genuine reasons for their difficulties will be fecked.

Re processions of property where the debtors have no intention of servicing the debt at all should be streamlined and rather than dragging on for years it should take a year max. It was probably obvious early on that the chancer in Strokestown was gaming the system. Then there should be obligations put in place so banks have to help those with genuine reasons for not being able to meet their payments but who are engaging with the bank to find a solution. They also need to separate the residence from the rest of the farm so in the worst case scenario the farm is lost but the residence is retained.

I've followed this thread with great interest.

I do not really have any sympathy for this man as he deliberately deceived and defrauded the taxpayer. He could pay but chose not to.

I don't have much time for banks either as I found myself in genuine trouble before, took out a mortgage and paid for a number of years, overpaid by thousands at one stage but fell into difficulty. I became ill but just didn't know how ill i was. All offers to the bank were refused, the end result being there's an empty house sitting idle a few years now.

Banks don't help themselves either.

Allinall

simongurnick wrote: »

I'm not talking about it as defence for the borrower. I'm talking about from the standpoint that KBC is a poorly run bank that does not effectivelly manage its loan portfolio,

I think you’ll find they’re a very well run bank.

Check out their financial statements.

alias no.9

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Worth remembering that the tracker mortgage scandal however, led to provisions (funds set aide to pay for future losses) of a combined figure of E900m !

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/0118/934146-tracker-mortgage-update/

They may become loss making again in the future when the ECB bond buying program ends but they are not loss making right now.

Anyhow, even if the banks cost of borrowing exceeds the nominal rate on a tracker, the loss is limited to the margin between the rates when the loan is being repaid to schedule.

On the other hand, where a loan is delinquent, it doesn't matter what the rate is, tracker or subprime, there is a total loss. Delinquent loans, regardless of rates are where the banks lost their shirts, not trackers being paid to schedule.

Naos

Danzy wrote: »

They won't be able to sell it though so that is a different problem for them.

Sure you just make up things as you go along anyway.

fryup

Feisar wrote: »

Is fap fest like Octoberfest except with fapping? If so, count me in!

well we are talking about Strokestown

simongurnick

Allinall wrote: »

I think you’ll find they’re a very well run bank.

Check out their financial statements.

they won't look good for long if they continue to carry on like this. They've already alienated half the country alone.

relax carry on

simongurnick wrote: »

I'm not talking about it as defence for the borrower. I'm talking about from the standpoint that KBC is a poorly run bank that does not effectivelly manage its loan portfolio,

Ok to to hone in on the actual case itself and leaving aside the eviction action carried out by the security firm which seems to have become mired in emotional opinions; do you accept that the process followed from 2009 to August 2018 allowed the borrower ever chance to deal with his financial responsibilities?
I believe that if he had engaged in a meaningful manner including possibly selling some of his assets to meet his debts he may not have found himself in the situation he did. Instead he seems to have compounded his problems given what we know of his issues with Revenue.

Danzy

Naos wrote: »

Sure you just make up things as you go along anyway.

Ha. Honestly who do you think will buy this?

The bank messed this up in every way possible.

Allinall

simongurnick wrote: »

they won't look good for long if they continue to carry on like this. They've already alienated half the country alone.

Half the country eh?

Don’t think do.

Danzy

relax carry on wrote: »

Ok to to hone in on the actual case itself and leaving aside the eviction action carried out by the security firm which seems to have become mired in emotional opinions; do you accept that the process followed from 2009 to August 2018 allowed the borrower ever chance to deal with his financial responsibilities?
I believe that if he had engaged in a meaningful manner including possibly selling some of his assets to meet his debts he may not have found himself in the situation he did. Instead he seems to have compounded his problems given what we know of his issues with Revenue.

That seems a reasonable supposition. It may be wrong to a degree, who knows but in this case more right than wrong.

I have seen cases where people were paying debt back in time and at an impressive rate who hedge funds tried to close on. The land being worth potentially more for development than the loan for farming.

Fair dues to KBC for turning this into such a disaster for themselves.

pablo128

Danzy wrote: »

Ha. Honestly who do you think will buy this?

The bank messed this up in every way possible.

What would happen if someone dared to buy this farm? Could you give me a few examples?

Naos

Danzy wrote: »

Ha. Honestly who do you think will buy this?

The bank messed this up in every way possible.

Well you do. You said KBC should be locked up for who they are hiring. Now you are saying the bank messed this up.

Who did KBC hire exactly?

How did KBC mess this up?

Where is the personal responsibility from the tax-dodging farmer?

martingriff

simongurnick wrote: »

they won't look good for long if they continue to carry on like this. They've already alienated half the country alone.

I say your figures are a bit off there. A lot of people will have sympathy for this case when someone loses a home but a lot will be lost due to the morans last weekend.

Spanish Eyes

If this happened in a city no one would give a sh!t really.

But in a rural community it is different. That is not to say that some in that community are not impressed with these defaulters either. But it may be an anti establishment thing going on or something.

Either way, there are a good number of people from all walks of life that have lived mortgage/repayment free for many years now, and have lived in the properties that they held up as security.

Many, many others worked their socks off to keep up their repayments. I know which cohort I admire anyway.