Burger van on Building site

bludcrazetiger

So, I have been offered a Van on a building site...
Caters for approx. 180 builders - has 2 years left on current site (not much competition around the site, Tesco/local shops all 10/15 min drive away, so the lads tend to use this canteen as a 30 minute break is rushed if they were to drive off site to go to a shop)

I have no experience in this, although a friend has 20 years experience catering and had a canteen contract for a workplace catering for upto 400 staff members so he is very experienced, long story short, its 9k, 4.5k each. and may open doors for more than just this site says the foreman on its current site...in an ideal world within 6-12 months we will have a few vans on several sites but hey we need to crawl before we can walk/run.
It appears to be a good opportunity, and at 4.5k each not mush risk...



The current van basically only offers the normal breakfasts/rolls.
Burgers/chips for lunch (99% of the menu is deep fat fried - except the fruit on offer)

Anyone have experience or advice with this ?

893bet

Experience is that most builders bring their own breakfast and lunch.

No one wants to eat burger and chips every day.

If currently trading go down and watch it from 12-3 for a few days to track footfall.6

Victor

bludcrazetiger wrote: »

has 2 years left on current site

No guarantees here. Is it on site or on the public road? What food / retail licencing is needed?

Who will run it? Do they have experience?

Are there opportunities to sell other convenience store products?

bludcrazetiger

893bet wrote: »

If currently trading go down and watch it from 12-3 for a few days to track footfall.6

Good advice, although the vans current site is slowing down as its almost finished, the van is being moved to the new plot which is 1 km from the current site, the van is being moved in march time by the contractor to the busier site - approx.180 builders for 2 years.

if we do take the van, we plan to go in end of February.

I believe the owner (73 years old and retiring) would like to tie the sale up this side of xmas, and the site is closing this Thursday for xmas, so I don't think watching the trade will tell us much at the moment as we know its quiet, also first few weeks in January will be quiet.

As for burgers/chips every day - I fully agree.

We do plan to put in an oven, as we are not keen on everything being deep fat fried.

Lasagna, pasta bake dishes, chicken curry, fresh home made soup being offered along with the normal breakfast rolls/burgers.

bludcrazetiger

Victor wrote: »

No guarantees here. Is it on site or on the public road? What food / retail licencing is needed?

Who will run it? Do they have experience?

Are there opportunities to sell other convenience store products?

its on the building site, so the 2 years is guaranteed.

we can sell what we like, it will be our van (im calling it a van but its actually a portacabin - no seating canteen basically)

convenience store products - what are you suggesting ?

mikemac2

Stock lucozade

It’s more expensive than other soft drinks so I’d imagine there is a good markup

For those who are hungover and even for those who are not It’ll sell well

Wildly Boaring

bludcrazetiger wrote: »

Good advice, although the vans current site is slowing down as its almost finished, the van is being moved to the new plot which is 1 km from the current site, the van is being moved in march time by the contractor to the busier site - approx.180 builders for 2 years.

.

No site ever has 180 men for 2 years!!

I've seen this stunt several.times when getting lads in to do food on site.

First 3 months maybe 30 or 40. Ramp to the magic figure over next 3 or 4 months.

The second completion date passes you'll be down in number drastically. Particularly if it's a hotel or public building that opens

antoinolachtnai

Just make sure you understand what you are buying for the money and make sure that you are actually buying it.

Can you explain what you think makes this a good opportunity, in euros and cents?

bludcrazetiger

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

No site ever has 180 men for 2 years!!

I've seen this stunt several.times when getting lads in to do food on site.

First 3 months maybe 30 or 40. Ramp to the magic figure over next 3 or 4 months.

The second completion date passes you'll be down in number drastically. Particularly if it's a hotel or public building that opens

I have worked on sites with more than 180 men.
its a new estate of homes.

I have seen the new site, its huge. Footings currently being put in place.
The head count is no issue, if there were only 30/40 men it would take 5 years.

Wildly Boaring

bludcrazetiger wrote: »

I have worked on sites with more than 180 men.
its a new estate of homes.

I have seen the new site, its huge. Footings currently being put in place.
The head count is no issue, if there were only 30/40 men it would take 5 years.

I said 30 or 40 for 3 months then a ramp up.

The 30 or 40 phase is obviously happening right now so you'll be arriving the right time.

bludcrazetiger

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

I said 30 or 40 for 3 months then a ramp up.

The 30 or 40 phase is obviously happening right now so you'll be arriving the right time.

Apologies I mis-understood. I was in the building trade myself so have some knowledge on how building sites work but my experience is 15 years ago now so is now dated.
apparently its 180 men on the new site for another 2 years, I know that isn't guaranteed but that was a estimate from the contractor at its peak time

we would be under no contract to stay on the site, so once its not worth our while we will be gone, but we do hope to move on with the contractor or have a second van with them on another site if all is well.

Victor

mikemac2 wrote: »

Stock lucozade

It’s more expensive than other soft drinks so I’d imagine there is a good markup

While it may be a premium product, it probably also costs more to buy, not least due to the sugar tax.

listermint

Would you not be better of going through his books first ?

drunkmonkey

Before you spend a penny do a 2yr cash flow forecast for opening this food van another one if you were to take over a burger shop and compare them both to just having a job as a shift manager in Mc Donalds paying €28k a year.
I'd also be very weary of going 50/50 with someone else as it's never going to end up a 50/50 work split.

OldMrBrennan83

bludcrazetiger wrote: »

Good advice, although the vans current site is slowing down as its almost finished, the van is being moved to the new plot which is 1 km from the current site, the van is being moved in march time by the contractor to the busier site - approx.180 builders for 2 years.

if we do take the van, we plan to go in end of February.

I believe the owner (73 years old and retiring) would like to tie the sale up this side of xmas, and the site is closing this Thursday for xmas, so I don't think watching the trade will tell us much at the moment as we know its quiet, also first few weeks in January will be quiet.

As for burgers/chips every day - I fully agree.

We do plan to put in an oven, as we are not keen on everything being deep fat fried.

Lasagna, pasta bake dishes, chicken curry, fresh home made soup being offered along with the normal breakfast rolls/burgers.

Do not listen to people here about food as you'll always be told what they think people should be eating rather that what regular people want to eat. I'd think long and hard before getting rid of the fried stuff without doing some proper research about it.

salmocab

Your service needs to be excellent lads will mostly get 30 mins lunch and if it takes 15 to get served they’ll not be long about bringing the sambos.
I’ve worked on a few sites with these on them and generally they are a welcome addition but I’d wonder how well they’d pay on a site with 200 odd people. Plenty will bring their own stuff especially the foreign labor who in my experience are great at bringing their own food. For lots you will be a great source of a can and packet of crisps but not much else, couldn’t see you shifting more than 30/40 breakfast rolls and maybe a few more hot lunches.
I’d be doing the maths on this before I committed, as others have said you need to see the footfall, I’d be very wary of the builder saying he will bring you along or the numbers he estimates. Who pays to move the portacabin each time? Your kinda stuck with that builder then if it’s dropped onto his site it would be very difficult to get it out and move elsewhere if it’s not working out.

I don’t think that the site is big enough to sustain 2 wages and overheads, maybe if everyone was buying everyday but it doesn’t sound like enough people will use it to me.

duploelabs

400 servings from one van in say 2 hours, someone has been given some very dodgy numbers.
Even in a canteen scenario where there's no choice, you'd be lucky to get through 120 in an hour (30 seconds to plate up), yet in this scenario you've the choice and payments to get through as well.

Sounds like a wistful (homework) scenario without any real world experience

Homer

It’s been mentioned already but don’t part with any money until
You have seen his books and know what turnover he has been doing! Easy to make promises of moving to a new site with x amount of potential customers

bludcrazetiger

Victor wrote: »

While it may be a premium product, it probably also costs more to buy, not least due to the sugar tax.

I haven't looked into the cost of lucozade tbh!

listermint wrote: »

Would you not be better of going through his books first ?

Like most mobile caterers who keeps books ? you declare what you want, and usually the minimum, he keeps tabs of just breakfast orders (as he needs to for cooking them, every breakfast is 'create your own', it was normally around 40ish per day so he says but more recently with xmas it has been 25 breakfasts give or take - which I have seen.
He doesn't note down breakfast rolls, or sandwiches/drinks.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Before you spend a penny do a 2yr cash flow forecast for opening this food van another one if you were to take over a burger shop and compare them both to just having a job as a shift manager in Mc Donalds paying €28k a year.
I'd also be very weary of going 50/50 with someone else as it's never going to end up a 50/50 work split.

Good advice, thanks.
We will switch roles on a weekly basis (cook/front of house), so should be 50/50 by the end of the month.

duploelabs wrote: »

400 servings from one van in say 2 hours, someone has been given some very dodgy numbers.
Even in a canteen scenario where there's no choice, you'd be lucky to get through 120 in an hour (30 seconds to plate up), yet in this scenario you've the choice and payments to get through as well.

Sounds like a wistful (homework) scenario without any real world experience

400 servings? I think you are talking about my friends current canteen right ?
This is not the vans footfall.

Homer wrote: »

It’s been mentioned already but don’t part with any money until
You have seen his books and know what turnover he has been doing! Easy to make promises of moving to a new site with x amount of potential customers

Books as above, no promises of a new site - we would be hopeful of this.

Bandara

I cannot see how this can possibly make any profit whatsoever.

your being fed lies to make you buy and (like us all with ambition and drive) you want to get stuck in, make it succeed so your going to fight to talk yourself into going for it. but your doomed from the start

just walk away. please, trust me, I know a lot about this industry.

antoinolachtnai

If you just buy it off him, pay him off ten percent of the profit per month until whatever amount you agreed is paid off. I would make the first payment after you have moved to the new site. Also agree that you will deduct fot unforeseen expenses (moving fees, rent) from the total amoumt you pay.

bludcrazetiger

Bandara wrote: »

I cannot see how this can possibly make any profit whatsoever.

your being fed lies to make you buy and (like us all with ambition and drive) you want to get stuck in, make it succeed so your going to fight to talk yourself into going for it. but your doomed from the start

just walk away. please, trust me, I know a lot about this industry.

Hi, Can you give me more of a reason to walk away?
Pm if you prefer, thanks.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If you just buy it off him, pay him off ten percent of the profit per month until whatever amount you agreed is paid off. I would make the first payment after you have moved to the new site. Also agree that you will deduct fot unforeseen expenses (moving fees, rent) from the total amoumt you pay.

The owner did state on my 2nd phone call to him (before viewing the van) if he couldn't sell he would consider renting it, so this may be a possibility if he still feels the same.

we may look into this angle after the comments from this thread - so thanks for the input.

(there is no fee in moving the van to it's new site, the contractor will do it for free - we only have to pay to have it removed at the end of the job to its new home, there also is no rent to have it on the site, the contractor puts you up for free, supplies us with electric for free, and pays for the removal of waste - we just supply the gas through bottles, and the food)

Pelvis

It doesn't really sound like something that's going to support two full time wages. Would you even be earning minimum wage? You've no idea because there are no records.

Who actually owns the portacabin? How do you move it? At least if it were an actual van you can take it to where the business is, stay mobile. Porta cabin is kind of useless if it doesn't work out on the building site.

bludcrazetiger

Pelvis wrote: »

It doesn't really sound like something that's going to support two full time wages. Would you even be earning minimum wage? You've no idea because there are no records.

Who actually owns the portacabin? How do you move it? At least if it were an actual van you can take it to where the business is, stay mobile. Porta cabin is kind of useless if it doesn't work out on the building site.

I know what you mean, we are going in slightly blind with the books, but at the same time I can see why he doesn't keep the books like he should, look it isn't mcdonalds huh! And TBH, most mobile caterers do the same for obvious reason

The owner currently has his wife and daughter working in the van, I imagine they would do ok! So with just us 2 working in the van, with the quality of food being a lot better we would hope to do ok and a lot more than minimum wage!)
His reason for sale is purely out of age, he is 73, and TBH he looks 83 and shouldn't be in a catering van.

The only proof of takings I have physically seen, is when I went to view it on a wet cold day last Thursday, when his wife was counting the takings, she had around e200/e250 on the side, yes it wasn't great for a days takings, but the site was empty due to the weather and due to its current plot being almost finished, plus the food isn't amazing, we would improve that 10 fold.


The 73 yr old chap owns the portacabin, how is it moved ?
It has 2 hooks on the roof, it hooks onto a crane and is lifted onto a lorry, the same again to put it down.

I would prefer a mobile unit off course, but then you need to double the investment as you need a 4x4 with a tow.
Plus a nice mobile unit would cost over 12k, you can find cheap ones on donedeal for a lot less but they look scabby and not appealing, and a half decent 4x4 does not come cheap.

This is, if you want to call it - a trial (with low cash investment). The portacabin actually looks great inside, its decked out well, If it works out well and if we need another we would probably buy mobile.

Wildly Boaring

2 things

Moving - you'll probably get craned free off site. Haulage minimum €300. Crane far end? If you end up hiring looking at another 300.
For the mobile all you need is to hire a big van for a day to move

Power
Be very careful here
Most new sites do not have power and often do not get it until they're nearly complete. One one site the henny we supplied did not power the cookers in the canteen. He needed massive power. My response at the time....tough, I'm giving you reasonable power here (same as all offices combined), was a big site. He was ok as had another set-up he swapped in.

Just make sure all these things ironed out.

€250 wont go far once you pay for the actual stock. Then divide in 2. There are a lot of wet days in Ireland.

bludcrazetiger

bludcrazetiger wrote: »

I would prefer a mobile unit off course, but then you need to double the investment as you need a 4x4 with a tow.
Plus a nice mobile unit would cost over 12k, you can find cheap ones on donedeal for a lot less but they look scabby and not appealing, and a half decent 4x4 does not come cheap.

This is, if you want to call it - a trial (with low cash investment). The portacabin actually looks great inside, its decked out well, If it works out well and if we need another we would probably buy mobile.

I have an opportunity to buy a mobile burger van, with a 4x4 - the guy wants 18,500. He works on the van on his own, its all precooked in the morning and reheated on the pan when ordered.
His site is 25 minutes closer to my home, also has 180 builders peak, he has 30 confirmed weekend bookings to go along with the sale, although the weekend bookings do nothing for me as I tied up with the kids.

I mentioned this to my friend, he didn't say much - I think the price tag put him off with discussions.

I chanced my arm and actually offered the guy 15k, he refused bluntly stating the van cost him 24k 3 years ago, so I haven't chased it up, im set on the portacabin now.

bludcrazetiger

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

€250 wont go far once you pay for the actual stock. Then divide in 2. There are a lot of wet days in Ireland.

I know, but if you saw the headcount on site and looked at the weather and had a look at the menu, you would have been amazed at how they earned that money.

On a good day he says he can take 600e, and I believe that, with a full site and half decent weather, I also believe we would do more than his takings due to our menu and the pace we would work at, compared to a 73 yr old couple and there daughter.

Wildly Boaring

bludcrazetiger wrote: »

I know, but if you saw the headcount on site and looked at the weather and had a look at the menu, you would have been amazed at how they earned that money.

On a good day he says he can take 600e, and I believe that, with a full site and half decent weather, I also believe we would do more than his takings due to our menu and the pace we would work at, compared to a 73 yr old couple and there daughter.

Ok. But you must do a proper plan here.

So 200 on a bad day. 600 on a good.
Average 400
Site open 47 weeks of year.
95000

Stock say 1/3 (I have no idea I'm a civil engineer, you NEED to know)
63000

Other overheads.
Insurance -god knows. But with ambulance chasers on every site you'll have to get it. Say 5k and I assume its actually way more
58000

Cleaning gear, break downs, break ins, site shut due to strike, whatever....not accounted for

Tax man = 1/3 of that
38000
Good luck not declaring. Some boy will report you. Competition, client rep, pissed off customer, arch nemesis......

Divide by 2
19000 take home
360 a week

Need to get there every day too.

My view.....you need to plan to beat that.

bludcrazetiger

just an update,

we will propose (in the new year as nothing can be done this side of xmas) to rent the van for 3 months (500e) per month, and if successful or feel we can run with it, pay the man his money. (and propose that he takes the rental cost off the purchase price) or if we feel its a no goer, hand the keys back and he has managed to get 3 months rent and he can sell it on to the next man..

Opinion on this proposal ?

Fair on all sides ?

drunkmonkey

Surely he has accounts to support his valuation. Grand it's only €1500 euro but it's also 6mts labour if the 2 of ye are in it for 3mts. True cost of the test run is about 15k + stock less what ever profit you make.

salmocab

bludcrazetiger wrote: »

just an update,

we will propose (in the new year as nothing can be done this side of xmas) to rent the van for 3 months (500e) per month, and if successful or feel we can run with it, pay the man his money. (and propose that he takes the rental cost off the purchase price) or if we feel its a no goer, hand the keys back and he has managed to get 3 months rent and he can sell it on to the next man..

Opinion on this proposal ?

Fair on all sides ?

That to me sounds reasonable, long enough to get a real feel for the place but not too much risk for you personally, it will also mean you can get a feel for the builder too and how it will work in the future regards moving. good luck with it.