Selling without auctioneer

wowey

I heard that is is not a very popular way of sellling houses in Ireland, but in UK and Poland this is one of the natural options - you dont need to involve auctioneer and instead, do everything yourself. Does anyone have experience in that?

L1011

My brother did quite recently. Professional photographer resulted in a listing which looked better than any of the agent ones for the same development and the place was sold in days. However there were a significant number of viewings to accommodate which would not be for everyone.

airportgirl83

wowey wrote: »

I heard that is is not a very popular way of sellling houses in Ireland, but in UK and Poland this is one of the natural options - you dont need to involve auctioneer and instead, do everything yourself. Does anyone have experience in that?

A friend of mine sold his place in Lucan on his own. He knew the price he wanted, he was interested in a quick sale as already picked a new house. He saved himself c. €5k, did daft add himself, arranged viewings (I believe two), only had to get someone to do the BER cert for him.

wowey

That's what I wanted to hear:) So there is God
I cant understand why most people don't feel like saving themselves a substantial amount of money:)

godtabh

wowey wrote: »

That's what I wanted to hear:) So there is God
I cant understand why most people don't feel like saving themselves a substantial amount of money:)

I dont me you personally but

I wouldnt give you a deposit. To me thats a key role in an estate agent.

I also wouldn't trust you to tell me everything that is wrong with your house.

I wouldnt trust you with bids/offers.

Cash_Q

godtabh wrote:

I also wouldn't trust you to tell me everything that is wrong with your house.

An agent trying to sell a house won't usually tell a buyer anything thats wrong with the house either. Even when directly questioned they try to spin their answer so it comes off not as bad as it is.

utmbuilder

Maybe if your solicitor dealt with their solicitor otherwise I think it could be a nightmare. Buyers tend not to have cash on the hip, then the whole deposit scenario what if you dont hand it back if the buyer backs out. It really sounds like scarey stuff, but I see where your coming from.

wowey

It is a common procedure in some countries, i.e. in Poland. I sold a some property over there this way. As for deposit, you either do it through a solicitor, or just write up a contract yourself (download a template from internet), both sides sign it and it is legally binding.

I totally agree with Cash Q that an agent doesn't tell you much re faults of the house. I just bought a house in Ireland and the agent avoided EVERY question we had. He run through the house in under a minute and said 'not a problem' to literally everything he was asked. It was actually pretty shocking.

I can agree that offers/bids aren't transparent. At the end of the day, everyone offer they max and hope for the best.

airportgirl83

godtabh wrote: »

I dont me you personally but

I wouldnt give you a deposit. To me thats a key role in an estate agent.

I also wouldn't trust you to tell me everything that is wrong with your house.

I wouldnt trust you with bids/offers.

I believe booking deposit goes to the Solicitor in that case. Also, why on earth would you trust the estate agent to tell you the truth about the house? Why would you trust the estate agent in relation to the bids? Sorry but that just makes me laugh so much! You can only trust the results of the house survey if anything.

godtabh

airportgirl83 wrote: »

I believe booking deposit goes to the Solicitor in that case. Also, why on earth would you trust the estate agent to tell you the truth about the house? Why would you trust the estate agent in relation to the bids? Sorry but that just makes me laugh so much! You can only trust the results of the house survey if anything.

I’d have more faith in a professional who works in a regulated industry than I would a randomer

airportgirl83

godtabh wrote: »

I’d have more faith in a professional who works in a regulated industry than I would a randomer

Bidding process is not really regulated (correct me if I'm wrong). You can't request a record / history of it? Also, a lot of the time estate agents just turn up with the key and know nothing about the property. Furthermore, as a property owner I can tell the estate agent only what I want them to know.

Claw Hammer

wowey wrote: »

It is a common procedure in some countries, i.e. in Poland. I sold a some property over there this way. As for deposit, you either do it through a solicitor, or just write up a contract yourself (download a template from internet), both sides sign it and it is legally binding.

I totally agree with Cash Q that an agent doesn't tell you much re faults of the house. I just bought a house in Ireland and the agent avoided EVERY question we had. He run through the house in under a minute and said 'not a problem' to literally everything he was asked. It was actually pretty shocking.

I can agree that offers/bids aren't transparent. At the end of the day, everyone offer they max and hope for the best.

It night be common in some countries but Irish conveyancing law differs from other countries as well as the fact that te irish property market is more olatile. Many attempts were made to set up to start a service of owners selling themselves. It has been going on for decades. Most people don't have the experience to deal with the range of issues ad messers who appear on the scene when a property is being sold. Relying on internet templates for the terms of a contract is foolish in the extreme. people are free to sell their own houses but the fact that relatively few do so tells its own story.

wowey

It's not so foolish if they're legally binding:)
These are regular contracts stating who, what, where, by when etc. but just simple in terms of what they relate to. Deposits given/received, date by which transaction must take place and what happens in any of the sides withdraws - this sort of things.

Claw Hammer

wowey wrote: »

It's not so foolish if they're legally binding:)
These are regular contracts stating who, what, where, by when etc. but just simple in terms of what they relate to. Deposits given/received, date by which transaction must take place and what happens in any of the sides withdraws - this sort of things.

A person can get into a legally binding contract which they cannot complete or get out of and find themselves sued. What would you know about inserting special conditions into a contract for the sale of a house?

wowey

It obviously works - when both parties want to go down that route. If not, you can use solicitor.

Claw Hammer

wowey wrote: »

It obviously works - when both parties want to go down that route. If not, you can use solicitor.

No sane puchaser is going to sign a contract when they gie you a deposit. Any purchaser is going to give the contract you have prepared to their solicitor to evaluate it. since you know nothing about inserting special conditions, you will be taking a major risk, not the purchaser.

wowey

I never said I would be implementing it Ireland. Just letting you know what way it works somewhere else. Here I would probably just use a solicitor & still sell without an auctioneer. It is obviously possible (see above).

Claw Hammer

wowey wrote: »

I never said I would be implementing it Ireland. Just letting you know what way it works somewhere else. Here I would probably just use a solicitor & still sell without an auctioneer. It is obviously possible (see above).

So much for downloading your contract from the internet.

cnocbui

godtabh wrote: »

I dont me you personally but

I wouldnt give you a deposit. To me thats a key role in an estate agent.

I also wouldn't trust you to tell me everything that is wrong with your house.

I wouldnt trust you with bids/offers.

Deposits are meaningless in Ireland - nothing but a fig leaf.

That's why buyers employ engineers to check out their prospective purchase.

What's trust got to do with anything property related in this country?

zdragon

godtabh wrote: »

I dont me you personally but

I wouldnt give you a deposit. To me thats a key role in an estate agent.

I also wouldn't trust you to tell me everything that is wrong with your house.

I wouldnt trust you with bids/offers.

a colleague sold his house himself. deposit went to his solicitor . so nothing to worry about "changing your mind"

JohnCleary

I sold myself, no need for an auctioneer.

The interested parties (and subsequent purchaser) were MUCH happier when they realised I was the owner. I ensured that I had all paperwork in order (compliance, BER, legal docs) so there was no delay.

Saved a few grand, for the sake of having to spend some time doing viewings.

Take good pics, have the place presentable (all the usual things, anyway).

BTW, deposit goes straight to the vendors solicitor, no issues whatsoever.....

Bio Mech

JohnCleary wrote: »

I sold myself, no need for an auctioneer.

The interested parties (and subsequent purchaser) were MUCH happier when they realised I was the owner. I ensured that I had all paperwork in order (compliance, BER, legal docs) so there was no delay.

Saved a few grand, for the sake of having to spend some time doing viewings.

Take good pics, have the place presentable (all the usual things, anyway).

BTW, deposit goes straight to the vendors solicitor, no issues whatsoever.....

Having just sold a house I would personally opt for an agent. I had a figure in mind for our house based on one valuation and comparison with several very similar (to me) homes in the area.

So I had that amount in mind and would have been more than happy getting it sold for that. We had an agent come in (one of the larger ones) who looked at all the details of our house and came up with an asking price of 10k over the figure I had in mind.

I didn’t think it would go for that. But In fairness to the agent the listing and brochure were really good. Photos were great and they had a list of potential buyers and applicants ready to go.

First weekend of viewing ( Saturday open viewing) we had a dozen viewers and an offer of 5k under asking. Now that’s still 5k over what I would have taken based on the figure I had in mind.

I wanted to accept but the agent said “ wait a week. Trust me”. We then had another offer in at asking and then another at 5 over asking (so that’s 15k over my figure). It sold at that. 19 days after it went up.

So yes they took some commission but I ended up better off than I would have if i had gone with my own counsel. I also think I would have been naive to assume I could have gotten what they got.

My two cents. I would go with an agent if I even sold again.

ted1

airportgirl83 wrote: »

A friend of mine sold his place in Lucan on his own. He knew the price he wanted, he was interested in a quick sale as already picked a new house. He saved himself c. €5k, did daft add himself, arranged viewings (I believe two), only had to get someone to do the BER cert for him.

Sounds quite possible that he sold his house for a much lower price than an estate agent would have got.

uck51js9zml2yt

Sold our house in the summer.
Had 22 viewings. Very glad we had an agent.
All the time we saved made it worth it.

cruizer101

godtabh wrote: »

I wouldnt give you a deposit. To me thats a key role in an estate agent.

I also wouldn't trust you to tell me everything that is wrong with your house.

I wouldnt trust you with bids/offers.

Deposits can be handled by solicitors.
Wouldn'y trust EA to tell you that, or even to necessarily know it.
Can you trust EA with bids/offers.

I'm surprised not more people do it, especially in a sellers market like we currently have where it is easy to get a sale.

pwurple

wowey wrote: »

That's what I wanted to hear:) So there is God
I cant understand why most people don't feel like saving themselves a substantial amount of money:)

Because it's a pain in the backside dealing with viewing public.

snowcat

utmbuilder wrote: »

Maybe if your solicitor dealt with their solicitor otherwise I think it could be a nightmare. Buyers tend not to have cash on the hip, then the whole deposit scenario what if you dont hand it back if the buyer backs out. It really sounds like scarey stuff, but I see where your coming from.

Thats exactly what happens. You dont pay the vendor anything. The payment goes to his solicitor. From there on in the solicitors deal with it which is what happens with an estate agent anyway. Deposit is returnable until contracts are signed. Same as with an EA.

snowcat

ted1 wrote: »

Sounds quite possible that he sold his house for a much lower price than an estate agent would have got.

What a load of bull. An estate agent has no interest in getting the max price for a property. They just want to sell it quick and get their commission.
If you have the time and inclination you will get more money than any EA will. You have more knowledge of your property and can answer any queries promptly and efficiently and know your exact area and property values within.
I have sold and both many properties and dread dealing with EA's as most are uninterested and have zero knowledge of the property they are selling.

happyfriday74

Agent is well worth the €. A decent one will have a database of buyers they can call on they would have been compiling all year. They will also know all the tricks people will pull when buying and have experience dealing with them.

Bought and sold at the same time(rookie mistake) Had a few agents through my own with a view to tell and engaged with others trying to buy.

Some were poor, most were fine, some were exceptional. In the big chains individual agents on one branch might be better than another.

Also if buying I would be put off by someone trying to flog the house themselves. If they were selling themselves AND not using a solicitor I would run a mile.

pasquale83

Bio Mech wrote: »

Having just sold a house I would personally opt for an agent. I had a figure in mind for our house based on one valuation and comparison with several very similar (to me) homes in the area.

So I had that amount in mind and would have been more than happy getting it sold for that. We had an agent come in (one of the larger ones) who looked at all the details of our house and came up with an asking price of 10k over the figure I had in mind.

I didn’t think it would go for that. But In fairness to the agent the listing and brochure were really good. Photos were great and they had a list of potential buyers and applicants ready to go.

First weekend of viewing ( Saturday open viewing) we had a dozen viewers and an offer of 5k under asking. Now that’s still 5k over what I would have taken based on the figure I had in mind.

I wanted to accept but the agent said “ wait a week. Trust me”. We then had another offer in at asking and then another at 5 over asking (so that’s 15k over my figure). It sold at that. 19 days after it went up.

So yes they took some commission but I ended up better off than I would have if i had gone with my own counsel. I also think I would have been naive to assume I could have gotten what they got.

My two cents. I would go with an agent if I even sold again.

15k more than the price you had in mind sounds good but you have to deduct the agent fees that can be around 6-7k or more so that virtual gain ca be substantially reduced by half.

cruizer101

happyfriday74 wrote: »

A decent one will have a database of buyers they can call on they would have been compiling all year.

I don't think they really do and even if they do I don't see the value of it.

Anyone who is looking for a property to buy (and even many who aren't but are just interested in the market) will go onto daft and will see your property for sale. So regardless of if it is with an EA or not an interested buyer will know about your property being for sale.
Might some be turned off because its not being sold by EA, maybe but if they really want the house I doubt it.

ted1

snowcat wrote: »

What a load of bull. An estate agent has no interest in getting the max price for a property. They just want to sell it quick and get their commission.
If you have the time and inclination you will get more money than any EA will. You have more knowledge of your property and can answer any queries promptly and efficiently and know your exact area and property values within.
I have sold and both many properties and dread dealing with EA's as most are uninterested and have zero knowledge of the property they are selling.

They don't need to have knowledge of the property, they just need to soulless individuals who can extract money from people.

they work on commission so do indeed want to get the highest price.

L1011

happyfriday74 wrote: »

If they were selling themselves AND not using a solicitor I would run a mile.

I believe self-conveyancing is actually impossible in Ireland - legally impossible, not so hard it works out the same as impossible - due to Land Registry requirements for professional certification. Unless you *are* a solicitor of course

Claw Hammer

L1011 wrote: »

I believe self-conveyancing is actually impossible in Ireland - legally impossible, not so hard it works out the same as impossible - due to Land Registry requirements for professional certification. Unless you *are* a solicitor of course

People are buying in online auctions without solicitors. Some end up forfeiting deposits.

snowcat

ted1 wrote: »

They don't need to have knowledge of the property, they just need to soulless individuals who can extract money from people.

they work on commission so do indeed want to get the highest price.

Yes but their commission is minimal. They could not care less about an extra 5k on a sale price as their commission only increases by about 70 euro but an extra 5k on a sale is a huge amount for the owner. The sale is their only concern, price is secondary

cnocbui

L1011 wrote: »

I believe self-conveyancing is actually impossible in Ireland - legally impossible, not so hard it works out the same as impossible - due to Land Registry requirements for professional certification. Unless you *are* a solicitor of course

Yeah, yet another example of the systemic dysfunction of the law and bureaucracy in this country. Took me about 20 minutes and a small, reasonable fee, to transfer a property to my ownership in another country.

Mad_maxx

snowcat wrote: »

Yes but their commission is minimal. They could not care less about an extra 5k on a sale price as their commission only increases by about 70 euro but an extra 5k on a sale is a huge amount for the owner. The sale is their only concern, price is secondary

Higher prices will draw more customers to them, then there are the bragging rights amongst peers

JohnCleary

In Ireland, you cannot buy/sell a property without a solicitor.

When it comes to deposits, all the EA does is transfer deposit to solicitor. It's adding another link to the chain. You never transfer deposit to the seller directly. All this talk of "not trusting the seller with deposit" is nonsense, as the seller never gets it (until closing, obviously). Can't say EA's are the most trustworthy folk either, but i'd be very alarmed if one went off with a booking deposit, too (they'd be struck off).

EA's *may* achieve a higher price, but they may also NOT. I sold without an EA and I know I achieved the highest price possible (I've been keeping an eye on similar properties in the PPR since I sold this year, and they're all in line). I had an EA value my place... they low-balled to achieve a 'quick sale' - Infact, I achieved a considerable amount higher by selling myself.

My only costs were a DAFT ad and time. I actually enjoyed meeting potential purchasers, and they told me that it was such a relief to not be getting the "EA sales nonsense" (to quote a few). I let the interested parties into the property (no open viewing, I hate them... everyone interested got a 1 hour slot) and left them to it. Any questions they had, I was able to answer instantly and honestly (I knew a lot more about my place than any EA would). I could also assure the interested parties that ALL paperwork was in order and ready to go (I offered to call my solicitor there and then to verify... he obviously agreed to this previously)

I'm not putting down EA's, i'm just saying i'd never use one.

TheShow

godtabh wrote: »

I dont me you personally but

I wouldn't give you a deposit. To me thats a key role in an estate agent.

I also wouldn't trust you to tell me everything that is wrong with your house.

I wouldn't trust you with bids/offers.

I would trust the actual vendor a lot more than i would trust an estate agent. they are nowt but liars ans sneakthieves, only interested in greasing their own palms.

JohnCleary

TheShow wrote: »

I would trust the actual vendor a lot more than i would trust an estate agent. they are nowt but liars ans sneakthieves, only interested in greasing their own palms.

To be fair, you can't tar all with the same brush.

Over the past few months i've had dealings with lots of EA's (Galway). Bar a few sleazeballs, i've found them OK.... still wouldn't ever use one though, they are a totally un-necessary profession.

Edgware

godtabh wrote: »

I dont me you personally but

I wouldnt give you a deposit. To me thats a key role in an estate agent.

I also wouldn't trust you to tell me everything that is wrong with your house.

I wouldnt trust you with bids/offers.

You dont have to give him the deposit. A solicitor can hold it.
You actually believe an estate agent will tell you whats wrong with the house and the accuracy of bids.
All you do is decide on how much you are willing to pay and if not accepted just walk away

Muahahaha

L1011 wrote: »

I believe self-conveyancing is actually impossible in Ireland - legally impossible, not so hard it works out the same as impossible - due to Land Registry requirements for professional certification. Unless you *are* a solicitor of course

AFAIK it is possible to self conveyance in Ireland but if you are borrowing a mortgage there is no way the bank will allow you to do it. There is nothing stopping a cash purchaser doing it though. The Land Registry have very stringent requirements for registering a property in your name after purchase and if anything is out of place they will reject it and you must submit again. However the staff in the Land Registry in the Four Courts are actually very helpful and will take the time to explain to the layman what documents they need to register the property. I wouldnt advise someone to self-convey unless they know what they are doing. However if the property is already registered with the Land Registry and you have a folio in hand it is actually a pretty simple process. The folio is like a government backed guarantee that there is a root of title going back 15 years so it is a very valuable document. If the title is with the Registry of Deeds then things are a lot more complex, even solicitors have problems registering these types of properties. If it is a leasehold property like most apartments are then it gets even more complex.

In any case when it comes to professional fees in buying/selling houses the solicitor is the one who offers people value for money whereas the estate agent makes a tidy sum often for very little work. A solicitor has to do far more work yet typically ends up with only about half the fees that the agents do.

Muahahaha

Just on not using an agent- there is a hybrid option <snip> They are a flat rate estate agent who charge €1,800 to photograph and advertise the property and then the owner shows it to viewers. They say if it doesnt sell then you dont pay the fee (but Id be checking the T&Cs for the fine print on this)

One of my cousins sold his house without an agent a while back. He spent nearly €40k upgrading the house with external insulation, upgraded the heating, new triple glazed windows and composite door, etc. He wanted to get this across to potential purchasers to get a higher price than other houses in the estate, houses that were still freezing cold inside compared to his. He had all the warranties of works done to show purchasers and was very passionate about the time and money he had spent on the house. He felt that an estate agent could never convey the work and money he had spent and that an agent would just get a few thousand more than what the last house sold for on the price register. In the end he got €27k higher than the previous sale, he said that the purchasers were really happy with the works he had done as they would have done the same themselves. For that convenience they were happy to pay a fair bit more than the previous property that sold in the estate.

Thing was then the next house in the estate went for sale with an asking price very close to his closing price on the PPP. That house sold for asking and the purchasers ended up paying way over the odds for a freezing cold house. Buyer beware.

Claw Hammer

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thing was then the next house in the estate went for sale with an asking price very close to his closing price on the PPP. That house sold for asking and the purchasers ended up paying way over the odds for a freezing cold house. Buyer beware.

The other way of looking at this is that your cousin valued under the odds and got a negative return for all the work he had done.

Muahahaha

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The other way of looking at this is that your cousin valued under the odds and got a negative return for all the work he had done.

You could see it that way but he got 8 years of value out of the upgrades he did to the house before selling it on. External insulation and good triple glazed windows have a life span of about 20-25 years so losing 30% on the price he paid was about right as he had used 30% of its lifespan. On top of that he reckons the upgrade saved him around €2k per year in energy bills. So he got the benefit of a warm comfortable house for 8 years while it saved him around €16k in energy.

His main reason for selling himself is he wanted to get these points across to potential buyers to extract a higher price than other houses in the estate that were freezing cold and drafty. He felt that an agent just wouldnt achieve this is the same way he could. He had all the certifications and warranties of the upgrade works he had done for inspection to potential purchasers along with evidence of his pretty low energy bills. This meant they knew he wasnt a spoofer and if anything he gave the purchasers way more confidence in the house than what you would get with your typical estate agent. Having seen the professional way he went about selling his house its certainly something Id consider doing myself down the line.

I think that the introduction of the property price register to the market has meant agents have lost a key advantage- secrecy of the prices houses were actually selling for. Now that we have transparency it makes it easier than ever for a self seller to achieve a fair market price without using an agent.

Bio Mech

pasquale83 wrote: »

15k more than the price you had in mind sounds good but you have to deduct the agent fees that can be around 6-7k or more so that virtual gain ca be substantially reduced by half.

The agent commission was bang on 6k alright. But I still had 9k extra in my pocket at the end and I didn’t have to do anything. Win win.

Plus our own purchase had some snags and the agent we were buying from was rubbish. Our own selling agent was brilliant with advice on our purchase.

Marcusm

wowey wrote: »

It obviously works - when both parties want to go down that route. If not, you can use solicitor.

Assuming the seller has a mortgage free property and a like minded purchaser can settle the proceeds out of his bank account. Otherwise solicitors will absolutely required on both sides.

snowcat

Marcusm wrote: »

Assuming the seller has a mortgage free property and a like minded purchaser can settle the proceeds out of his bank account. Otherwise solicitors will absolutely required on both sides.

People are confusing the conveyancing and the sale process. You need a solicitor for the sale. You do not need an auctioneer.

snowcat

Bio Mech wrote: »

The agent commission was bang on 6k alright. But I still had 9k extra in my pocket at the end and I didn’t have to do anything. Win win.

Plus our own purchase had some snags and the agent we were buying from was rubbish. Our own selling agent was brilliant with advice on our purchase.

6k to put an ad on daft.ie and to facilitate a few viewings is silly money. Purple bricks in the UK do it for 1000 euro

snowcat

happyfriday74 wrote: »

Agent is well worth the €. A decent one will have a database of buyers they can call on they would have been compiling all year. They will also know all the tricks people will pull when buying and have experience dealing with them.

Bought and sold at the same time(rookie mistake) Had a few agents through my own with a view to tell and engaged with others trying to buy.

Some were poor, most were fine, some were exceptional. In the big chains individual agents on one branch might be better than another.

Also if buying I would be put off by someone trying to flog the house themselves. If they were selling themselves AND not using a solicitor I would run a mile.

A database of buyers (Comical). There is a database of buyers and is called the market.