€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

LorelaiG

tretorn wrote: »

Co location in their "expert opinion" is non negotiable, that doesnt explain why co location is necessary.

I dont agree that it is. Crumlin is a world leader in the treatment of childhood cancer and it doesnt have a maternity hospital attached.

There is no good reason why a country the size of Ireland cant have a first class childrens hospital that isnt attached to a maternity hospital, attaching a letter written by "experts" isnt a convincing arguement.

The vast majority of women who attend maternity hospitals could safely deliver and go home the same day if we had adequate PHNs to do home visits. We would be better off adopting this model than spending millions building new maternity hospitals and insisting that they be located beside childrens hospitals.

Thats because childhood cancer isn't usually diagnosed at birth. If you look at something like congenital heart defects or spina bifida you look at why co location is a top priority. Many children born with these conditions need immediate transport to a specialist hospital and if they were born on the same site as that specialist children's hospital they immediately have better odds of survival and many of them are not stable enough for transport via ambulance. It also means that their parent is closer to them as usually these births result in a cesarean and the birth parent cannot travel with them because they've just had major surgery. This leads to better healing outcomes for the birthing person.

I think the experts are best placed to know whether maternity co location is an important issue or not.

AndrewJRenko

Doc07 wrote: »

I think I’d agree with many of your points here but that’s not quite true. It’s possible to take public only contract and many offered and filled (plenty unfilled) since 2012 or so. However public /private mix contracts still available

Thanks for the correction.

LorelaiG wrote: »

I think the experts are best placed to know whether maternity co location is an important issue or not.

Rubbish. Why would you need to involve experts when boards.ie posters with no qualifications know exactly how things should be done?


People in this country have had enough of experts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw276pOBgSU

beauf

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

No, a different group came up with the Mater earlier, and then they found that they couldn't get planning permission at the Mater site, so they looked at other sites - and came up with James.

Ah so ask different experts get a different answer. Maybe you've got to keep asking until you get the answer you want.

I'm sure we'll be back in another few years with the more issues at At James..

Rubberchikken

how could the small number of children born with heart issues/spina biffida/etc justify the cost of building a maternity hospital next to a kids hospital?

this whole thing is a pointless toothless expensive inquiry and this country is a bloody disaster.

AndrewJRenko

beauf wrote: »

Ah so ask different experts get a different answer. Maybe you've got to keep asking until you get the answer you want.
.

I'd say it was more to do with the fact that planning permission had been refused at the Mater that got them to ask the question again.

LorelaiG

Rubberchikken wrote: »

how could the small number of children born with heart issues/spina biffida/etc justify the cost of building a maternity hospital next to a kids hospital?

this whole thing is a pointless toothless expensive inquiry and this country is a bloody disaster.

Small number? I'm not sure you actually know the statistics of such conditions off the top of your head but CHDs account for 1in100 births and spina bifida is 1in1000 that's before we take into account other serious birth defects of which I was just giving two examples as they were two that I have personal experience of. If top consultants think colocation is a top priority we need to heed what they say.

salmocab

Rubberchikken wrote: »

how could the small number of children born with heart issues/spina biffida/etc justify the cost of building a maternity hospital next to a kids hospital?

this whole thing is a pointless toothless expensive inquiry and this country is a bloody disaster.

I think a lot of that is also having the mother next to an adult hospital.

I’m sure the medical reasons for co-location are sound but I can’t be convinced that this was the best long term plan. I’ve said here before moving to a site with room for James’s to move and the Coombe would have been a good plan. Hospitals have life spans and James’s is well along its path, various buildings will need upgrades and even rebuilds over the next few decades costing huge sums anyway. Even buying new land and building the children’s hospital with a long term plan to move the other two out over say 30 years could have been good. The James’s and Coombe sites would be worth a fortune to a developer and that would go a way to offsetting costs. Shared services could also see the running costs lowered for all 3.

brendanwalsh

They need to halt construction immediately.

If this was the private sector heads would roll. Whoever tendered that price would be asked to explain full the reasons for over run and likely be sacked. Project manager and the estimator would be hung out to dry. It's ridiculous that a country like ireland will have the most expensive hospital in the world.

FixdePitchmark

brendanwalsh wrote: »

They need to halt construction immediately.

If this was the private sector heads would roll. Whoever tendered that price would be asked to explain full the reasons for over run and likely be sacked. Project manager and the estimator would be hung out to dry. It's ridiculous that a country like ireland will have the most expensive hospital in the world.

Sorry BAM are private sector.

We don't know how much BAM contributed yet.

Guess wait till the report.

AndrewJRenko

brendanwalsh wrote: »

They need to halt construction immediately.

If this was the private sector heads would roll. Whoever tendered that price would be asked to explain full the reasons for over run and likely be sacked. Project manager and the estimator would be hung out to dry. It's ridiculous that a country like ireland will have the most expensive hospital in the world.

The Project Manager was the cream of the private sector - former MD of Sisk, had been through the builds of Croker, Landsdown, Dundrum TC.

https://www.constructionawards.ie/blog/tom-costello-construction-industry-leader-2017

But he's resigned now, and who could blame him.


Good luck in finding someone to take on the role now, a piddling €40k at best for a non-exec role where you get hung out to dry by your Minister. Who in their right mind would step up to that role now?

tretorn

Has construction started.

I feel sorry for the local residents, they will have a miserable time while this totally unsuitable building is constructed.

LorelaiG

tretorn wrote: »

Has construction started.

I feel sorry for the local residents, they will have a miserable time while this totally unsuitable building is constructed.

Groundworks only so far

FixdePitchmark

A good few comments targeting the public sector are a bit crazy, the construction industry in this county are complete rip off merchants who brought the country to its knees.

If anyone has done any building work, I wouldn't be too quick to criticism of public sector. Not to mention they know how to dodge tax too.

beauf

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'd say it was more to do with the fact that planning permission had been refused at the Mater that got them to ask the question again.

The point being the experts were happy with the lunacy. The helipad on the roof was a nice touch. Just every one else though it was crazy.

fly_agaric

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'd say it was more to do with the fact that planning permission had been refused at the Mater that got them to ask the question again.

I think FG had opposed that site strongly in opposition.
They didn't exactly battle very hard to get it built after rejection despite all the time + money that had already been put in. Whole thing was junked straight away; new reports ordered up etc.
Probably wanted to firmly put their own brand on the big shiny vote winning project. Possibly doesn't look like it was such a clever political move now though.:(

foxy06

AndrewJRenko wrote:

Do you know better than them?

AndrewJRenko wrote:

If you want me to do your research for you, we'll need to agree an hourly rate. We haven't invested in paediatric facilities since the 1950s. The current facilities are not fit for purpose. We got in a team of eight experienced experts who came up with James as the best option.

Everyone in the country knows better than the 8 people who decided on this site. It's a ridiculous location for a new hospital.

Dakotabigone

LorelaiG wrote: »

Groundworks only so far

It will be another €1bn by the time the foundation is poured. The tax payer will have some sore hole by the time the blocklayers get to first floor.

tretorn

The hospital board has spent 800,000€ on Public Relations costs so far.

iamwhoiam

tretorn wrote: »

The hospital board has spent 800,000€ on Public Relations costs so far.

Well that went belly up

SEPT 23 1989

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Sorry BAM are private sector.

We don't know how much BAM contributed yet.

Guess wait till the report.

You think the costs would have overun like this if BAM were building a plant or a data centre for a multi-national?

Berserker

tretorn wrote: »

The hospital board has spent 800,000€ on Public Relations costs so far.

A drop in the ocean. The consultancy firms are probably making a killing off this. Two of the big four have a slice of this pie.

brendanwalsh wrote: »

They need to halt construction immediately.

If this was the private sector heads would roll. Whoever tendered that price would be asked to explain full the reasons for over run and likely be sacked. Project manager and the estimator would be hung out to dry. It's ridiculous that a country like ireland will have the most expensive hospital in the world.

The project manager, a man who appears to have countless successful builds to his credit in this country, has resigned. I suspect that the poor bastard has had enough. I wouldn't do that job for €240,000 a year, let alone €40,000.

gimli2112

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Well that went belly up

They'll be thinking they should have spent more and wouldn't be in this mess if they had

mariaalice

The Chairman of the hospital procurement board was paid 12k a year, that won't suit the ...they are all resigning on a massive pension and pay corruption blabla.


That does not mean there are no issues but the simple narratives are never the answers.

Cushie Butterfield

mariaalice wrote: »

The Chairman of the hospital procurement board was paid 12k a year, that won't suit the ...they are all resigning on a massive pension and pay corruption blabla.


That does not mean there are no issues but the simple narratives are never the answers.

Where did you get that figure? Is that an emoluments figure for a given year or total renumeration for a given year? A lot of figures being bandied about, just wondering where you got yours.

mariaalice

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

Where did you get that figure? Is that an emoluments figure for a given year or total renumeration for a given year? A lot of figures being bandied about, just wondering where you got yours.

From Rte radio, he was director of a very large construction firm before he became chairman of the board.

jmayo

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you reckon that you know something that the consultants, planners, architect and hospital adminstrator on the Dolphin Committee didn't already know when they chose the James site as the best option?


https://health.gov.ie/blog/press-release/announcement-of-the-composition-of-the-review-group-into-the-national-paediatric-hospital/

I don't think you replied to my last post about how easy it is to make sure an expert panel reach the "right" conclusion ?

Also did you back the Mater site since it also had expert opinion backing it or have you skin in the game with regard to the James' site?

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So that kids have access to the best health care - co-located with a maternity hospital and an adult hospital.

So I suppose you reckon when a maternity hospital is based there, probably costing 3 billion, that women in labour should take public transport ?

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If you want me to do your research for you, we'll need to agree an hourly rate. We haven't invested in paediatric facilities since the 1950s. The current facilities are not fit for purpose. We got in a team of eight experienced experts who came up with James as the best option.

Do you know better than them?

And the James site is not fooking fit for purpose.
Just ask some of the people working there or having to access it. :rolleyes:

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The Project Manager was the cream of the private sector - former MD of Sisk, had been through the builds of Croker, Landsdown, Dundrum TC.

https://www.constructionawards.ie/blog/tom-costello-construction-industry-leader-2017

But he's resigned now, and who could blame him.

Well for a start he was always usually the builder, not the person signing the cheques.
He had converted from being poacher to gamekeeper.
And was he a project manager or project engineer ?

And didn't he leave the company after review following the companies large losses in Poland?

Also there is no fecking way in hell he could have ramped up the costs for projects being paid for by the GAA and IRFU, Delaney's FAI maybe. :rolleyes:
So I wouldn't laud him too much for those projects not been massive overspends.

BTW does anyone know if SISK or SISK Healthcare have won contracts for any of the build or fit out of this new hospital ?

If I was a competitor or those companies I would find it disconcerting an ex very long term employee of theirs was in such a position of influence.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Good luck in finding someone to take on the role now, a piddling €40k at best for a non-exec role where you get hung out to dry by your Minister. Who in their right mind would step up to that role now?

Ehh expenses my dear boy/girl.

mariaalice wrote: »

The Chairman of the hospital procurement board was paid 12k a year, that won't suit the ...they are all resigning on a massive pension and pay corruption blabla.
...

You know what always gets me in this fooking country, the impression that unless we pay millions we get idiots.
Funnily enough 90 something percent of the very astronomically paid executive we have or had in this country have made a cockup.
That includes politicans, civil servants, regulators, bankers, sports body executives, you name it.

You can count on your hands the chief executives in this country that are worth their salaries.

rob316

It's going to cost another half a million to do a report into why its costing more. A report that will stop short of holding someone accountable. Scandalous

mariaalice

jmayo wrote: »

I don't think you replied to my last post about how easy it is to make sure an expert panel reach the "right" conclusion ?

Also did you back the Mater site since it also had expert opinion backing it or have you skin in the game with regard to the James' site?



So I suppose you reckon when a maternity hospital is based there, probably costing 3 billion, that women in labour should take public transport ?



And the James site is not fooking fit for purpose.
Just ask some of the people working there or having to access it. :rolleyes:



Well for a start he was always usually the builder, not the person signing the cheques.
He had converted from being poacher to gamekeeper.
And was he a project manager or project engineer ?

And didn't he leave the company after review following the companies large losses in Poland?

Also there is no fecking way in hell he could have ramped up the costs for projects being paid for by the GAA and IRFU, Delaney's FAI maybe. :rolleyes:
So I wouldn't laud him too much for those projects not been massive overspends.

BTW does anyone know if SISK or SISK Healthcare have won contracts for any of the build or fit out of this new hospital ?

If I was a competitor or those companies I would find it disconcerting an ex very long term employee of theirs was in such a position of influence.



Ehh expenses my dear boy/girl.



You know what always gets me in this fooking country, the impression that unless we pay millions we get idiots.
Funnily enough 90 something percent of the very astronomically paid executive we have or had in this country have made a cockup.
That includes politicans, civil servants, regulators, bankers, sports body executives, you name it.

You can count on your hands the chief executives in this country that are worth their salaries.

Yes but you are not answering the question of why anyone would be on the board and be hauled before the public accounts committee and be expected to be responsibly for almost unreal levels of accountability and be accused of corruption and the like in the media, more so if you are wealthy a millionaire and could join the board of loads of private company.

jmayo

mariaalice wrote: »

Yes but you are not answering the question of why anyone would be on the board and be hauled before the public accounts committee and be expected to be responsibly for almost unreal levels of accountable and be accused of corruption and the like in the media, more so if you are wealthy a millionaire and could join the board of loads of private company.

Prestige ?
Come on a lot of these people have big egos and to be asked to be part of one of the biggest building projects of the last 50 years could be hard to pass up.

Besides historically no one has ever been made responsible for anything in Ireland. :rolleyes:

This could be a turning point.
And it is a about time.

This board and executives are responsible for the spending of billions and a cost overrun of a hundreds of millions deserve the highest scrutiny on behalf of the taxpayers of the state.
The sad thing is that we have often incompetent gimps of politicians carrying out some of that scrutiny.

I don't want an attitude as displayed by that arrogant bast*** Dukes, when he looked down upon politicians for demanding to know from him, as the public's so called representative on the board of Anglo Irish Bank/IBRC, what was going on.

And he was being paid for that position out of the public purse on top of his publicly funded pension of €120k.

Gael23

Heads need to roll.
Culture needs to change in the civil service and individuals must be held to account

Berserker

mariaalice wrote: »

The Chairman of the hospital procurement board was paid 12k a year, that won't suit the ...they are all resigning on a massive pension and pay corruption blabla.

Are you sure? The director is a €140K + expenses role, as of 2017, so it's hard to imagine that the Chairman would be paid €12K.

mariaalice

Berserker wrote: »

Are you sure? The director is a €140K + expenses role, as of 2017, so it's hard to imagine that the Chairman would be paid €12K.

It was on RTE and they are very careful about stuff like that.

Millionaire only not

If there is fraud going on there between BAM main building contractors And those in charge send in the revenue hit them with audits and tax bills get the money back. Tom Costello was head of Sisk for long enough he knows how jobs work and pricing
But again let the foolish tax payers pay for our boats expensive houses cars
Guaranteed there paying minimum wage to foreigners on that site . The job u can be sure is subbed out at a lot lower rate than what bam got to build it . The figures being mentioned there could be anywhere up to 30/40% profits for bam and there not even doing the work
Tax tax audit tax bring it all back again , but do u think it will happen . Sure live in good old Ireland rob the working class

Wheeliebin30

Just heard Sinn Fein saying they don’t even think it’s legal if PWC names people to blame.

So when the government say they will find heads to roll the opposition still criticizes them.

This is one big political mess as always.

Parties make it political for personal gain.

Yakult

Monty Pythons " Building a Children's Hospital"

Coming Late 2022.

rob316

I didn't even need to look up who the developer was, BAM are pulling the same strokes with the event centre in Cork. Massively underbidding for the tenders and then as they already have the contracts the government pony up for the balance. Jobs for the boys is what it is.

SoundsRight

The religious orders are probably shaking their heads in disbelief. They would have had it on time and within budget, but we can't be having that in progressive Ireland.

tretorn

Why do all the rooms in the new childrens hospital have to be single.

Most children will probably only spend a few nights in hospital having minor procedures so surely they could share four bed wards. Children enjoy being with other children anyway especially when they are on the mend.

We wont need as many hospital beds for long term care in future because with legal abortion foetuses with disabilities will be diagnosed earlier and earlier and terminated. Sadly children with disabilities also usually have major health difficulties too and their care is enormously expensive. Provision for education for children with disabilities is also very expensive too and abortion will result in big savings in both these areas.

it does sounfd like BAM came in with a very low tender and where does this leave competitors who may have tendered higher but with more realistic costings. Should the whole job be stopped now and the project retendered again, this to me is the only realistic way forward.

Noel Smyth who offered a site at the Naas Road was interviewed yesterday. Many professionals said at the time if that site was chosen they would offer their services at cost, eg architects and solicitors. Smyth says he could have provided a hospital at a fraction of the cost but he has now sold the site on.

Harris definitely needs to resign over this, He did not perform well in the cervical cancer mess and we now have solicitors lining up encouraging women to take legal cases even though errors in reading smears are inevitable in cancer screening. He promised panicking women free smears even though there is no capacity within the HSE for this work, he really hasnt the competency for senior ministerial roles. He should have been aware of the rising costs, was it brought to his attention and what did he do about it. Costello who resigned isnt reponsible for this fiasco, he isnt Taoiseach or Minister for Health. How dare Vradkar say dont worry about the astronomical costs, we have ten years to pay it back, sure if thats the attitude why bother tendering the work out at all. Watch them all bleat on about sick children now as if it isnt possible to build a first class hospital without spending billions.

We get what we deserve.

facehugger99

tretorn wrote: »

it does sounfd like BAM came in with a very low tender and where does this leave competitors who may have tendered higher but with more realistic costings. Should the whole job be stopped now and the project retendered again, this to me is the only realistic way forward.

You can't just cancel a tender and re-tender it because you don't like how it's going.

iamwhoiam

facehugger99 wrote: »

You can't just cancel a tender and re-tender it because you don't like how it's going.

Well if I got a builder to give me a price of €30k for an extension on my house snd he suddenly it would actually cost me €90k . I would absolutely cancel him and seek another builder .
So are you saying if the build suddenly escalated to 5 billion its just tough luck ?

salmocab

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Well if I got a builder to give me a price of €30k for an extension on my house snd he suddenly it would actually cost me €90k . I would absolutely cancel him and seek another builder .
So are you saying if the build suddenly escalated to 5 billion its just tough luck ?

See that’s not what happened in your scenario after he gave you the price of 30k you then gave him a new spec and he said actually that will cost 90k.

tretorn

I would have thought contracts are signed at a fixed price, they were when we extended our house.

I was sorry afterwards I didnt go for better windows but the cheaper windows were costed at the time of tender so if I wanted better windows I had to pay more. I understood this and I am not an accountant. My architect ordered the tendering of the work and the choosing of the builders and they worked together so the job would be completed on time. I wasnt asked for one cent more above the price tendered for.

Why hasnt BAM made a statement regarding the shenanigans going on. Surely they must have some idea as to how the costs jumped so high. They should be asked to appear before the Public Accounts committee.

tretorn

salmocab wrote: »

See that’s not what happened in your scenario after he gave you the price of 30k you then gave him a new spec and he said actually that will cost 90k.

Is this what happened though, I dont think anyone has officially admitted this yet.

If this is the case then no need to pay another half million to PWC.

We dont need another pointless enquiry, we need BAM to state why the project is costing so much more than the job was tendered for, its a matter of identfying the extras and the changes and who suggested them and were they costed when changes were suggested. The various Civil Servants involved should be able to get this information for the taxpayer, its basic accountancy.

facehugger99

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Well if I got a builder to give me a price of €30k for an extension on my house snd he suddenly it would actually cost me €90k . I would absolutely cancel him and seek another builder .
So are you saying if the build suddenly escalated to 5 billion its just tough luck ?

It's a Public Works Contract - there are certain circumstances in which either party may terminate the contract but the one outlined by the poster isn't a valid reason.

Reference sub-clause 12.5
The Employer is entitled by the Contract to terminate the Contractor’s
obligation to complete the Works at its election upon giving 20 working days
notice to the contractor.
One important limitation on this power is that the Employer may not terminate
under it for the purpose of obtaining another Contractor to execute/complete
the works.

CrabRevolution

tretorn wrote: »

Noel Smyth who offered a site at the Naas Road was interviewed yesterday. Many professionals said at the time if that site was chosen they would offer their services at cost, eg architects and solicitors. Smyth says he could have provided a hospital at a fraction of the cost but he has now sold the site on.

I would have built it for free. In fact I'd have paid to do it.

Well not really but it's about as likely as Smyth's "if only" story.

iamwhoiam

salmocab wrote: »

See that’s not what happened in your scenario after he gave you the price of 30k you then gave him a new spec and he said actually that will cost 90k.

Has that happened with the hospital ? I read nothing about new specs that made the cost rise like that

rob316

The Cork events centre has jumped from €50m to €80m also tendered out to BAM. Questions need to be asked of BAM, its farcical that 2 large projects are going the same way.

facehugger99

rob316 wrote: »

The Cork events centre has jumped from €50m to €80m also tendered out to BAM. Questions need to be asked of BAM, its farcical that 2 large projects are going the same way.

What questions?

They are entitled to submit claims.

If those claims are not valid then they get rejected, if valid they are entitled to a increase in the Contract sum or extension of time or both.

I'd be more asking questions of whoever compiled the tender documents.

tretorn

The nuns wouldnt have parted with one euro more than the price agreed. They would have kept control before the first sod was turned.

Its incredible to think no one on that Board can get to the cause of why the costs went out on control, here we are now spending the guts of 450,000e for someone to go through costings, how many layers of management were involved in this project, why dont they know or have even some idea of the costs, surely they must have had regular meetings about this project.

Harris needs to go on the six o clock news with the facts and information and stop hiding behind the PWC enquiry. He is probably hoping people will get bored of this while the enquiry goes on and on and probably will end up costing double the original price and wont give answers anyway. The information PWC will be looking for is already there or at least should be.

Tacitus Kilgore

facehugger99 wrote: »

What questions?

They are entitled to submit claims.

If those claims are not valid then they get rejected, if valid they are entitled to a increase in the Contract sum or extension of time or both.

I'd be more asking questions of whoever compiled the tender documents.

This - Huge differences in tender to construction.

Also, the original figure doesn't seem to have ever included the fit-out costs, making it all seem so much worse.