€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

The Bishop Basher

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Problems arise when those who claim to know best have no expertise or qualifications in the areas that they claim to know best about.

Why do you constantly resort to this line ?

Sometimes all the expertise in the world can get it wrong for all sorts of reasons..

Anyone who’s ever tried to drive through Dublin city centre knows this is the wrong location and it doesn’t cost half a million to figure that out.

So many of us predicted massive overruns Die to the location and here we are with massive over runs.

If we could predict this outcome then why couldn’t the “experts”.

Let’s not forget that plenty of medical professionals and advocates for children and the hospital were also completely opposed to this location.

Are they all wrong too ?

Constantly harping back to qualifications and expertise as you do makes no sense at all in this debate. In some it might but not in this.

facehugger99

Rennaws wrote: »

Let’s not forget that plenty of medical professionals and advocates for children and the hospital were also completely opposed to this location.

Maybe the location could have been decided by an AH poll?

AndrewJRenko

Rennaws wrote: »

Why do you constantly resort to this line ?

Sometimes all the expertise in the world can get it wrong for all sorts of reasons..

Anyone who’s ever tried to drive through Dublin city centre knows this is the wrong location and it doesn’t cost half a million to figure that out.

I've driven and cycled through Dublin city centre, and I know this tells me precisely zilch about where to locate the hospital.

There are bigger issues here than parking and traffic.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've driven and cycled through Dublin city centre, and I know this tells me precisely zilch about where to locate the hospital.

There are bigger issues here than parking and traffic.

There may well be bigger issues here than parking and traffic. But the logistics of using the James site are huge and are the No 1 concern in most parents minds .

As the parent of a child who had a brain tumor and we lived on North side of Dublin we had to use Beaumont , Crumlin and St Bart’s in London .
The stress of getting in and out of hospitals in traffic was ABSOLUTELY the most stressful part !
Try being stuck in heavy traffic with a 5 year old child in the car due for radiotherapy . Try being stuck with roadworks or broken traffic lights with a child crying with pain or vomiting. Try being clamped because you had to park right outside the hospital because your child had become unconscious in the car and you had to carry them in to the hospital due to traffic delays!

We were only traveling from the greater Dublin area , not from Kerry , Donegal, Sligo, Mayo ! The traveling in London was actually easier as the trains and taxis were amazing. ( But we were away from home from 3months which was tough).
It is THE most stressful thing to go through . You are crying with worry, fear and stress. The additional complications of getting seriously sick children into the center of a capital city with narrow streets, bus lanes, traffic lights, parking restrictions , clampers, trucks being unloaded blocking lanes are truly horrendous . You might do it AndrewJRenko on a bike ....but try it with a seriously sick child ! A greenfield site on the M50 or even in the middle of Ireland would have been far preferable.


You don’t need experts to tell you what is as plain as the nose on your face. This new hospital is in the WRONG location. Dr Finn Breathnach has strenuously opposed the location from day 1. He was Crumlins most senior consultant oncologist and was our little girls doctor. Pat Kenny has made more sense than anybody on this matter from Day 1 , from an ordinary perspective as well as his engineers background.
Our arrogant government never back down when they made a mistake, never say “we got it wrong “. They are more than happy to plough ahead and use 2billion of our money for this farce rather than lose face !!

AndrewJRenko I have seen you derail other threads in order to score points and win the argument . In this case with respect I’d suggest unless you’ve walked the walk it’s better not to talk the talk. This is about common sense not degrees or qualifications or PWC reports.

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There may well be bigger issues here than parking and traffic. But the logistics of using the James site are huge and are the No 1 concern in most parents minds .

Sorry to hear about your unimaginably difficult situation. I hope it all worked out for you and yours.

You may be right to say that traffic, parking and access are the top concerns for parents. This doesn't mean that it should be the top concern for Government, where that would involve compromising on clinical care outcomes.

There are many ways of addressing the transport problems you describe at relatively low cost,without compromising on clinical outcomes.

SEPT 23 1989

Pat Kenny has been excellent on this

suicide_circus

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Pat Kenny has been excellent on this

he's some man for objecting to building plans

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

he's some man for objecting to building plans

But he’s right on this !

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry to hear about your unimaginably difficult situation. I hope it all worked out for you and yours.

You may be right to say that traffic, parking and access are the top concerns for parents. This doesn't mean that it should be the top concern for Government, where that would involve compromising on clinical care outcomes.

There are many ways of addressing the transport problems you describe at relatively low cost,without compromising on clinical outcomes.

Sadly it didn’t work out for us .....and over the years ahead many hundreds of other parents will be in the same situation as we were. Why make an intolerably difficult situation for parents and children 100 times worse by plonking the hospital they desperately need slap bang in the middle of the city ? They may have already travelled hours by car from the west of the country ? We could barely do it from the perimeter of Dublin . You can’t take a child that sick on a bus.

I’d argue the governments top priority is not clinical care. It’s not patient care. It’s money. They won’t pay the nurses demands now due to budgetary issues. This hospital as already overrun but their egos won’t let them back down , someone would have to take responsibility. It would look bad.
They could have the same center of clinical excellence somewhere off the M50, close to all motorways and Blanchartstown hospital.

Johnnyhpipe

Currently sitting on the canal and have been here the past 25 minutes in traffic. God help anyone having to access the worlds most expensive hospital.

alloywheel

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Currently sitting on the canal and have been here the past 25 minutes in traffic. God help anyone having to access the worlds most expensive hospital.

As a few Germans who were overheard recently in relation to the world most expensive hospital (by far), along with the housing crises, traffic etc, they said, "Ze Irish, they are not able to govern themselves"

beauf

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

....But for some reason, lack of expertise doesn't hold many people back in deciding they know better.

This reminds me of people in life who try to make out that some dumb thing or process has to be done one way, and it's too complicated for anyone else to understand or improve. They then try to prevent anyone else from getting the details or facts so no one can prove them wrong.

So invariably someone else almost always figures a better way of doing it.

This project has been like this from the start. Discussion of the costs had always been dismissed and shut down, as if it's not an issue. It's always going to be expensive so trust the experts. ... And here we are....

beauf

The cost of parking is another issue, and also having a zillion different systems.

Blanch is or used to be the funniest. It's cheapest to pay for a week it's a tenner a day other wise but you have to put €20 of coins into the meter. Except the machine that gives you change is often broken.

I wonder what expert designed that system.

tretorn

At least you can get into Blanchardstown.
You had to drive round Crumlin hospital and then join a queue outside creating a traffic hazard until a space became available. The residential roads nearby had cars parked everywhere.
Andrewr says the transport issues to James are easily resolved but he doesnt say how. I have friends who walk a long distance to work rather than use the Red Luas Luas line in the cuty centre, its full of dsngerous junkies, who wants that fir their children en route to hospital, we cant deal with this junky problem up to this and its getting worse.

ToBeFrank123

Ease of access for patients and visitors should be a fundamental cornerstone of any new hospital development.

Followed by ease of expansion. On both counts the new hospital fails.

There should also be significant hotel accommodation near by should parents wish to stay the night before or any night.

Of course colocation and trilocation are important, but if an existing hospital cannot handle an expansion, then the project needs to be started out of town on a greenfield site.

What exactly have we against greenfield sites away from the city centre in this country? Does everything have to be within a 5 mile radius of O'Connell Bridge? Because it certainly seems that way.

beauf

tretorn wrote: »

At least you can get into Blanchardstown.
....

Better than city center for sure.

The m50 and n3 often backed up these days. Because everyone going to Dublin. Parking in Blanch has been full at times in the last year when I've been there. Never not got parking. Which happens a lot at the mater.

tretorn

I see people are now asking that the PEC report examine why this site was chosen in the first place, it came down to a choice between Blanchardstown, a bigger site at the Coombe and James. The Coombe site was preferable but not owned by James hospital.
If PWCs remit is enlarged then its invoice will rocket too, we taxpayers are mugs.

Floppybits

Who would take a sick/injured child to hospital on public transport? Can you imagine taking a child with a broken arm or who has been split open on the 42A to the hospital?

Most people would drive themselves, get a neighbor or other relation to drive them, get a taxi or an ambulance, this being close to public transport is a joke. I live close to Temple Street hospital and the couple of times I have had to take my child to hospital I drove to Tallaght instead of going to Temple street, why? well it was quicker than going to Temple street even with the traffic on the M50, there is a car park on the site, I don't have to drive around looking for a parking spot, this meant that I could drop my child and wife off at the door and they go into the hospital while I parked the car and followed them in.

There is no way that I would take my child in an emergency to the new hospital in St James, the only way I would go there is if we were referred by the doctor and it was by appointment and my child was able to travel on public transport, other than that no way would I got near it in an emergency.

It has been a disaster of a decision for this government, they should have chosen a greenfield site out side of the city that had good transport links to it and allowed for expansion. Also this new hospital is only going to increase the bed count by 9 beds when it is finished, if even that.

tototoe

Loving FG and their children's hospital at any cost mantra....sure won't it be great.

The arrogance of them all is astounding

Wanderer78

tototoe wrote:

The arrogance of them all is astounding

'Keep the recovery going'!

Wheeliebin30

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Currently sitting on the canal and have been here the past 25 minutes in traffic. God help anyone having to access the worlds most expensive hospital.

Sat on the m50 for an hour this morning.

God help anyone trying to get to blanch if it was there.

The m50 is worst in the mornings than town.

tretorn

Does anyone know who was involved in the last minute decision to pick the James sute. Could a journalist make a Freedom of Infirmation request. It was a ladt minute decision.

The taxpayers are entitled to this information and we shouldnt have to pay PWC or anyone else to get it. We shouldnt be paying half a million euros to get any info about this sute, Harris could get the information re escalating costs by Monday, getting PWC in is complicating matters and delaying things in the hope the spotlight moves on to something else. We have been here before.

Wheeliebin30

tretorn wrote: »

Does anyone know who was involved in the last minute decision to pick the James sute. Could a journalist make a Freedom of Infirmation request. It was a ladt minute decision.

The taxpayers are entitled to this information and we shouldnt have to pay PWC or anyone else to get it. We shouldnt be paying half a million euros to get any info about this sute, Harris could get the information re escalating costs by Monday, getting PWC in is complicating matters and delaying things in the hope the spotlight moves on to something else. We have been here before.

Last minute?

It took 20 years to reach the decision.

Where do you tin foil lads get this nonsense from?

Tacitus Kilgore

Floppybits wrote: »

Who would take a sick/injured child to hospital on public transport? Can you imagine taking a child with a broken arm or who has been split open on the 42A to the hospital?

Most people would drive themselves, get a neighbor or other relation to drive them, get a taxi or an ambulance, this being close to public transport is a joke. I live close to Temple Street hospital and the couple of times I have had to take my child to hospital I drove to Tallaght instead of going to Temple street, why? well it was quicker than going to Temple street even with the traffic on the M50, there is a car park on the site, I don't have to drive around looking for a parking spot, this meant that I could drop my child and wife off at the door and they go into the hospital while I parked the car and followed them in.

There is no way that I would take my child in an emergency to the new hospital in St James, the only way I would go there is if we were referred by the doctor and it was by appointment and my child was able to travel on public transport, other than that no way would I got near it in an emergency.

It has been a disaster of a decision for this government, they should have chosen a greenfield site out side of the city that had good transport links to it and allowed for expansion. Also this new hospital is only going to increase the bed count by 9 beds when it is finished, if even that.

Is it an emergency hospital? Don't think there's an A&E in it is there?

monkeybutter

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Sat on the m50 for an hour this morning.

God help anyone trying to get to blanch if it was there.

The m50 is worst in the mornings than town.

no town is worse, you obviously just haven't gone into town

any time of the day

seamus

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Sat on the m50 for an hour this morning.

God help anyone trying to get to blanch if it was there.

The m50 is worst in the mornings than town.

This.

The ideal locations are Blanch or Tallaght.

Tallaght pips it because it has the LUAS, meaning you have interconnections from Connolly & Heuston that Blanch doesn't have.

But the M50 poses a similar problem for both hospitals - if you come from the North of the country, land onto the M50, then you have to cross the bridge to get to Tallaght. If you come from the south, you have to cross the bridge to Blanch. Either way, someone is losing out.

Either way the ORR should be completed from Lucan to Clonsilla. This would kill the bottleneck even if the NCH still goes into the worst location.

tretorn

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Last minute?

It took 20 years to reach the decision.

Where do you tin foil lads get this nonsense from?

The hospital was to be built on the Coombe site as far as I remember. At the last minute it was changed to St James and it would be interesting to know why.

The James site is congested and there isnt room there now for a co located maternity hospital and there never will be unless you bull doze buildings nearby.

Its all mad stuff but who are we to question our betters.

Amirani

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Currently sitting on the canal and have been here the past 25 minutes in traffic. God help anyone having to access the worlds most expensive hospital.

Why are you making stuff up when you have no clearly have no idea?

New Karolinska Hospital in Sweden is the World's most expensive hospital. It cost over €5bn so you're actually miles off with your statement.

https://www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k1816
https://www.thelocal.se/20180207/finance-minister-calls-for-new-karolinska-hospital-inquiry

Podge_irl

Rennaws wrote: »

Sometimes all the expertise in the world can get it wrong for all sorts of reasons..

Anyone who’s ever tried to drive through Dublin city centre knows this is the wrong location and it doesn’t cost half a million to figure that out.

If their decision is based entirely on the ability to drive to the hospital then yes, it is the wrong location. It was not considered the primary factor - so the argument you should have having is whether the desire for co/tri-location was incorrect.

So, is a focus on clinical outcomes less important the ease of driving to the hospital?

Wheeliebin30

Amirani wrote: »

Why are you making stuff up when you have no clearly have no idea?

New Karolinska Hospital in Sweden is the World's most expensive hospital. It cost over €5bn so you're actually miles off with your statement.

https://www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k1816
https://www.thelocal.se/20180207/finance-minister-calls-for-new-karolinska-hospital-inquiry

How do people in the media and political parties get away with lying everyday????

AndrewJRenko

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

tretorn wrote: »

Does anyone know who was involved in the last minute decision to pick the James sute. Could a journalist make a Freedom of Infirmation request. It was a ladt minute decision.

The taxpayers are entitled to this information and we shouldnt have to pay PWC or anyone else to get it. We shouldnt be paying half a million euros to get any info about this sute, Harris could get the information re escalating costs by Monday, getting PWC in is complicating matters and delaying things in the hope the spotlight moves on to something else. We have been here before.

Last minute?

It took 20 years to reach the decision.

Where do you tin foil lads get this nonsense from?

And it's all in the published Dolphin report, despite what the conspiracy theorists would like to believe.

Podge_irl

Floppybits wrote: »

Who would take a sick/injured child to hospital on public transport? Can you imagine taking a child with a broken arm or who has been split open on the 42A to the hospital?

Most people would drive themselves, get a neighbor or other relation to drive them, get a taxi or an ambulance, this being close to public transport is a joke. I live close to Temple Street hospital and the couple of times I have had to take my child to hospital I drove to Tallaght instead of going to Temple street, why? well it was quicker than going to Temple street even with the traffic on the M50, there is a car park on the site, I don't have to drive around looking for a parking spot, this meant that I could drop my child and wife off at the door and they go into the hospital while I parked the car and followed them in.

There is no way that I would take my child in an emergency to the new hospital in St James, the only way I would go there is if we were referred by the doctor and it was by appointment and my child was able to travel on public transport, other than that no way would I got near it in an emergency.

It has been a disaster of a decision for this government, they should have chosen a greenfield site out side of the city that had good transport links to it and allowed for expansion. Also this new hospital is only going to increase the bed count by 9 beds when it is finished, if even that.

Not even close to everyone going to a hospital is going in an emergency - I highly doubt it is even close to a majority. If it is truly an emergency you should be going to the nearest A&E or getting an ambulance. Proximity to public transport however is vital for staff, visitors and routine appointments and James' is the best connected hospital by public transport in Ireland by quite a distance.

I'm aware it is brought up repeatedly, but I still do not understand why the fact that GOSH suggests as many patients and visitors as possible come by public transport, and that it is far less accessible by private car transport than James' is so readily dismissed. No one is screaming that GOSH is asking immuno-suppressed kids to brave junkies on the tube.

James' will have I believe about 500 parking spaces. It is more than enough if visitors to the hospital use public transport.

And yes, the traffic around the hospital will be bad a couple of hours a day but getting around the M50 at those times is no easier and leaves way fewer options. At least in a traffic jam the Luas will still be getting to James quickly.

monkeybutter

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

How do people in the media and political parties get away with lying everyday????

in fairness, it's not even complete, the current cost is what 2 billion

and is set to reach 5.2 by 2040 according to the document and is for 1100 beds

so is that running costs or is there more

neither article are clear if the all beds have been delivered

both a shambles

so as we are in planning I'm sure it can eclipse those numbers

Kivaro

Amirani wrote: »

Why are you making stuff up when you have no clearly have no idea?

Jebus, relax a bit or you might need a hospital.
The media it touting the new hospital as the most expensive in the world. Even if it isn't, the projected cost overrun begs the halting of this political build. Also the site for the hospital is obviously inappropriate, the infrastructure for the onslaught of extra traffic in the area will not cope, public transportation to the hospital will be wholly inadequate, and the list goes on and on .......

The decision to continue with the build is plain and simple a political one. It has nothing to do with fiduciary responsibility to the tax payer, it has nothing to do with accountability for a badly-planned and badly-managed project, and it has nothing to do with the provision of a badly needed children's hospital; not just for Dublin, but for the whole country.

In years to come, this decision to continue with the build at that location, even with all the warning bells, will be looked at with incredulity.

Wheeliebin30

Kivaro wrote: »

Jebus, relax a bit or you might need a hospital.
The media it touting the new hospital as the most expensive in the world. Even if it isn't, the projected cost overrun begs the halting of this political build. Also the site for the hospital is obviously inappropriate, the infrastructure for the onslaught of extra traffic in the area will not cope, public transportation to the hospital will be wholly inadequate, and the list goes on and on .......

The decision to continue with the build is plain and simple a political one. It has nothing to do with fiduciary responsibility to the tax payer, it has nothing to do with accountability for a badly-planned and badly-managed project, and it has nothing to do with the provision of a badly needed children's hospital; not just for Dublin, but for the whole country.

In years to come, this decision to continue with the build at that location, even with all the warning bells, will be looked at with incredulity.

After years of reports and looking into the best location you’re suddenly an expert on the location???

seamus

monkeybutter wrote: »

in fairness, it's not even complete, the current cost is what 2 billion

No, the current cost is not 2 billion.

The 2bn figure is exactly the same hysteria as the "most expensive hospital in the world" one. Media and opposition politicians rounding up figures and throwing out speculation in order to stoke up anger.

The headline cost of putting the hospital on the ground is €1.4bn.

On top of that a few extra project have been bundled into this one, including moving to a new electronic system for health records, and the implementation of an updated system for integrating health records.

These are upgrades that will be used across the HSE, but have been included as part of the new hospital project.

As a whole, this inflates the total cost to €1.7bn. The actual cost of building the hospital hasn't increased, but typical politiking has allowed the hangers-on to get their projects paid for without having to make an independent case for funding.

The €2bn figure comes from a throwaway comment by a Labour TD (Alan Kelly, who loves nothing more than publicity) who said he believed it would cost at least that much.

So the 2bn figure is nonsense.

Even the 1.7bn figure is questionable.

The 1.4bn figure is still pretty crazy, and we should definitely be asking why the cost of building a hospital jumped 50% in less than two years.

But the more noise is made about trying to account for a 2bn figure that's completely fake, the less likely it is we'll get any answers about the actual costs.

vargoo

Lantus wrote: »

It's not an overrun. It's gross incompetence, ignorance, stupitity, deliberate fraud or a combination of those 4 but let's please stop calling it an overrun.

This.

Someone is cleaning up here.

Jaysus guys, this can't keep going on, it's just 1 scandal after another. ....

ToBeFrank123

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Sat on the m50 for an hour this morning.

God help anyone trying to get to blanch if it was there.

The m50 is worst in the mornings than town.

This is true.

But something like 75% of our population lives outside the M50. And that 75% will have to deal with the M50 at some stage when going to the new hospital, whether they are coming from Wicklow, Wexford, Kerry, Cork, Mayo, Galway, Meath, Cavan etc.

So you make a good argument for any new hospital being outside the M50.

0ph0rce0

vargoo wrote: »

This.

Someone is cleaning up here.

Jaysus guys, this can't keep going on, it's just 1 scandal after another. ....

But it will that's the sad thing.

They go around your door, lie to your face. We vote them in. They become millionaires and **** off.

Someone ****s up, they start a report or some tribunal bull**** which takes 20 years and when they come to a conclusion on who was responsible the people or person are retired or long gone with 100k a year for sitting on their hole and it's onto the next scandal.

ToBeFrank123

seamus wrote: »

No, the current cost is not 2 billion.

The 2bn figure is exactly the same hysteria as the "most expensive hospital in the world" one. Media and opposition politicians rounding up figures and throwing out speculation in order to stoke up anger.

The headline cost of putting the hospital on the ground is €1.4bn.

On top of that a few extra project have been bundled into this one, including moving to a new electronic system for health records, and the implementation of an updated system for integrating health records.

These are upgrades that will be used across the HSE, but have been included as part of the new hospital project.

As a whole, this inflates the total cost to €1.7bn. The actual cost of building the hospital hasn't increased, but typical politiking has allowed the hangers-on to get their projects paid for without having to make an independent case for funding.

The €2bn figure comes from a throwaway comment by a Labour TD (Alan Kelly, who loves nothing more than publicity) who said he believed it would cost at least that much.

So the 2bn figure is nonsense.

Even the 1.7bn figure is questionable.

The 1.4bn figure is still pretty crazy, and we should definitely be asking why the cost of building a hospital jumped 50% in less than two years.

But the more noise is made about trying to account for a 2bn figure that's completely fake, the less likely it is we'll get any answers about the actual costs.

So basically no-one knows what the final cost could be. It could be 1.4 billion. It could be 1.7 billion. It could be 2.5 billion.

That's the problem. The government haven't a clue. They can't say it will definitely cost a certain figure. And given the cost inflation already, its fairly clear it will rise further.

Given international comparisons, anything over 1 billion, there is something seriously wrong. Far larger hospitals have been built for less than 1 billion internationally.

beauf

It wasn't last minute. It's been discussed for decades.

jmayo

mariaalice wrote: »

However, that won't satisfy those who want a named individual preferable a public servant to blame, one that can be either hanged drawn and quartered or at least publicly humiliated and their pension taken away.

This is from the days when politicians had a now novel concept of accepting blame for things.

But I guess you subscribe to the Irish, especially public sector, concept of "systemic failures" rather than somebody being to blame for cockups, usually through negligence, incompetence and sheer bloodymindness.

Kelvinwhalley wrote: »

How are they leaving out stuff like a sprinkler system out of the design

The other day on Marion Finucane somebody was blaming the changes in building regs due to Greenfeld.
As she rightly pointed out surely they had designed the spec to the highest standards already?

Rennaws wrote: »

Why do you constantly resort to this line ?

Sometimes all the expertise in the world can get it wrong for all sorts of reasons..

Anyone who’s ever tried to drive through Dublin city centre knows this is the wrong location and it doesn’t cost half a million to figure that out.

So many of us predicted massive overruns Die to the location and here we are with massive over runs.

If we could predict this outcome then why couldn’t the “experts”.

Let’s not forget that plenty of medical professionals and advocates for children and the hospital were also completely opposed to this location.

Are they all wrong too ?

Constantly harping back to qualifications and expertise as you do makes no sense at all in this debate. In some it might but not in this.

Because I believe they have skin in the game as this is one they refuse to let go and continously try to act arrogant and sanctimonious using expert reports to diminish other's concerns or warnings.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've driven and cycled through Dublin city centre, and I know this tells me precisely zilch about where to locate the hospital.

There are bigger issues here than parking and traffic.

Yeah like the suitability of the site to take further development, it's capability to offer expansion.

Auguste Comte

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Currently sitting on the canal and have been here the past 25 minutes in traffic. God help anyone having to access the worlds most expensive hospital.

Sat on the m50 for an hour this morning.

God help anyone trying to get to blanch if it was there.

The m50 is worst in the mornings than town.

There was a hard shoulder that could be used in an emergency to access Blanch. For anyone coming from the country the m50 traffic will be just the start of their battle with Dublin traffic instead of end of it. I suppose if it was important enough a sick child could be flown in by helicopter except they can't because there is no where to land one.

beauf

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

This is true.

But something like 75% of our population lives outside the M50. And that 75% will have to deal with the M50 at some stage when going to the new hospital, whether they are coming from Wicklow, Wexford, Kerry, Cork, Mayo, Galway, Meath, Cavan etc.

So you make a good argument for any new hospital being outside the M50.

Doesn't matter now the whole economic policy of the entire country is move everything and everyone to Dublin.

We need a M60 about 20km beyond the M50.

The suburbs will be out to there in about 20yrs.

Amirani

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

This is true.

But something like 75% of our population lives outside the M50. And that 75% will have to deal with the M50 at some stage when going to the new hospital, whether they are coming from Wicklow, Wexford, Kerry, Cork, Mayo, Galway, Meath, Cavan etc.

So you make a good argument for any new hospital being outside the M50.

Dolphin Report states that 75% of the hospitals patients will be from the Dublin Area.

facehugger99

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

So basically no-one knows what the final cost could be. It could be 1.4 billion. It could be 1.7 billion. It could be 2.5 billion.

That's the problem. The government haven't a clue. They can't say it will definitely cost a certain figure. And given the cost inflation already, its fairly clear it will rise further.

You obviously have very little experience of construction projects if any of the above statements come as a surprise.

ToBeFrank123

Amirani wrote: »

Dolphin Report states that 75% of the hospitals patients will be from the Dublin Area.

Hmm. Maybe I missed the part about it being a NATIONAL children's hospital. What are sick children from the rest of the country supposed to do?

At least the Dolphin Report is unambiguous about this being a national hospital largely for the benefit of Dublin and Dubliners but paid for by everyone else.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

There may well be bigger issues here than parking and traffic. But the logistics of using the James site are huge and are the No 1 concern in most parents minds .

As the parent of a child who had a brain tumor and we lived on North side of Dublin we had to use Beaumont , Crumlin and St Bart’s in London .
The stress of getting in and out of hospitals in traffic was ABSOLUTELY the most stressful part !
Try being stuck in heavy traffic with a 5 year old child in the car due for radiotherapy . Try being stuck with roadworks or broken traffic lights with a child crying with pain or vomiting. Try being clamped because you had to park right outside the hospital because your child had become unconscious in the car and you had to carry them in to the hospital due to traffic delays!

We were only traveling from the greater Dublin area , not from Kerry , Donegal, Sligo, Mayo ! The traveling in London was actually easier as the trains and taxis were amazing. ( But we were away from home from 3months which was tough).
It is THE most stressful thing to go through . You are crying with worry, fear and stress. The additional complications of getting seriously sick children into the center of a capital city with narrow streets, bus lanes, traffic lights, parking restrictions , clampers, trucks being unloaded blocking lanes are truly horrendous . You might do it AndrewJRenko on a bike ....but try it with a seriously sick child ! A greenfield site on the M50 or even in the middle of Ireland would have been far preferable.

You don’t need experts to tell you what is as plain as the nose on your face. This new hospital is in the WRONG location. Dr Finn Breathnach has strenuously opposed the location from day 1. He was Crumlins most senior consultant oncologist and was our little girls doctor. Pat Kenny has made more sense than anybody on this matter from Day 1 , from an ordinary perspective as well as his engineers background.
Our arrogant government never back down when they made a mistake, never say “we got it wrong “. They are more than happy to plough ahead and use 2billion of our money for this farce rather than lose face !!

AndrewJRenko I have seen you derail other threads in order to score points and win the argument . In this case with respect I’d suggest unless you’ve walked the walk it’s better not to talk the talk. This is about common sense not degrees or qualifications or PWC reports.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Not even close to everyone going to a hospital is going in an emergency - I highly doubt it is even close to a majority. If it is truly an emergency you should be going to the nearest A&E or getting an ambulance. Proximity to public transport however is vital for staff, visitors and routine appointments and James' is the best connected hospital by public transport in Ireland by quite a distance.

I'm aware it is brought up repeatedly, but I still do not understand why the fact that GOSH suggests as many patients and visitors as possible come by public transport, and that it is far less accessible by private car transport than James' is so readily dismissed. No one is screaming that GOSH is asking immuno-suppressed kids to brave junkies on the tube.

James' will have I believe about 500 parking spaces. It is more than enough if visitors to the hospital use public transport.

And yes, the traffic around the hospital will be bad a couple of hours a day but getting around the M50 at those times is no easier and leaves way fewer options. At least in a traffic jam the Luas will still be getting to James quickly.

Why don't you read the above before commenting how only emergency cases would be traveling by car.
A lot of the traffic to this hospital will be for specialist care and the children will often be suffering chronic conditions and in a very susceptible state to infections ala the poor child above.

And as the poster above quite pointedly said...
unless you’ve walked the walk it’s better not to talk the talk.


And 500 spaces will soon be eaten up by staff, by contract workers and those travelling both from Dublin area and from much further afield.

BTW where will those in labour in the future park when they is the new paternity hospital ?
Or will they be expected to take public transport also. :rolleyes:

wrangler

Deleted User wrote: »

There may well be bigger issues here than parking and traffic. But the logistics of using the James site are huge and are the No 1 concern in most parents minds .

As the parent of a child who had a brain tumor and we lived on North side of Dublin we had to use Beaumont , Crumlin and St Bart’s in London .
The stress of getting in and out of hospitals in traffic was ABSOLUTELY the most stressful part !
Try being stuck in heavy traffic with a 5 year old child in the car due for radiotherapy . Try being stuck with roadworks or broken traffic lights with a child crying with pain or vomiting. Try being clamped because you had to park right outside the hospital because your child had become unconscious in the car and you had to carry them in to the hospital due to traffic delays!

We were only traveling from the greater Dublin area , not from Kerry , Donegal, Sligo, Mayo ! The traveling in London was actually easier as the trains and taxis were amazing. ( But we were away from home from 3months which was tough).
It is THE most stressful thing to go through . You are crying with worry, fear and stress. The additional complications of getting seriously sick children into the center of a capital city with narrow streets, bus lanes, traffic lights, parking restrictions , clampers, trucks being unloaded blocking lanes are truly horrendous . You might do it AndrewJRenko on a bike ....but try it with a seriously sick child ! A greenfield site on the M50 or even in the middle of Ireland would have been far preferable.


You don’t need experts to tell you what is as plain as the nose on your face. This new hospital is in the WRONG location. Dr Finn Breathnach has strenuously opposed the location from day 1. He was Crumlins most senior consultant oncologist and was our little girls doctor. Pat Kenny has made more sense than anybody on this matter from Day 1 , from an ordinary perspective as well as his engineers background.
Our arrogant government never back down when they made a mistake, never say “we got it wrong “. They are more than happy to plough ahead and use 2billion of our money for this farce rather than lose face !!

AndrewJRenko I have seen you derail other threads in order to score points and win the argument . In this case with respect I’d suggest unless you’ve walked the walk it’s better not to talk the talk. This is about common sense not degrees or qualifications or PWC reports.

shocking !! Public service doesn't give a s..t, not only are they insulated from the real world up on their pedestal but now they are pulling up the ladder after them

ToBeFrank123

facehugger99 wrote: »

You obviously have very little experience of construction projects if any of the above statements come as a surprise.

There are plenty of examples including public-private projects which came in exactly on budget and sometimes under budget.

The cost overrun on this is not typical so don't try make out it is. An overrun of a few hundred million would be acceptable. An overrun of a billion and rising is not.