€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

Podge_irl

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Hmm. Maybe I missed the part about it being a NATIONAL children's hospital. What are sick children from the rest of the country supposed to do?

Die on the side of the road probably :rolleyes:

If they can be treated locally they will be. If they can not they will be sent to Dublin. Routine pediatrics will still occur in other hospitals. Not every child with a broken bone will have to go to James'.

seamus

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Hmm. Maybe I missed the part about it being a NATIONAL children's hospital. What are sick children from the rest of the country supposed to do?

Go to other hospitals.

It's a simple fact of our population distribution that having specialist care facilities all over the country would mean that each of those care facilities provides worse healthcare than one or two large specialist facilities that do all the work.

Then you add on the need for infrastructure and co-location and it becomes obvious that building a huge children's hospital in the middle of a green field in rural Co. Laois might work out cheaper, but it won't be a good hospital.

Podge_irl

jmayo wrote: »

Why don't you read the above before commenting how only emergency cases would be traveling by car.
A lot of the traffic to this hospital will be for specialist care and the children will often be suffering chronic conditions and in a very susceptible state to infections ala the poor child above.

It is not diminishing the seriousness of that situation to comment that it is not, in fact, the usual case for people travelling to the hospital.

People's ire over the parking spaces should be reserved for those who take them up when they really don't have to.

ToBeFrank123

I've no problem personally with a spend of 1.7 billion if the hospital was as near perfect as could be, good location and future proofed. But Dublin traffic is getting worse not better. The LUAS and buses are packed to capacity in the mornings and are not suitable for a sick child. The M50 is a car park much of the time. Access will be a major issue, causing unnecessary hardship on users of the hospital.
Now is the time to decide if its the right location, not when its built.

facehugger99

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

There are plenty of examples including public-private projects which came in exactly on budget and sometimes under budget.

The cost overrun on this is not typical so don't try make out it is. An overrun of a few hundred million would be acceptable. An overrun of a billion and rising is not.

There’s plenty of examples of unforeseen ground conditions or uncharted services adding to the tender cost.

You seemed quite surprised/outraged at the exact cost not being known in advance of the construction phase.

tretorn

Also most people would have to drive or get a bus to the Luas and the buses are at full capacity in the mornings and evenings. And thats before Facebook creates another five thousand jobs in Dublin 2.

There is very little parking available in Luas carparks, they are used by commuters who park from early morning to night.

Comparing a hospital in London with traffic grid locked centre city Dublin is pointless. The Tube system carries millions of people every week and it has capacity most of the time. There is nothing comparable to the London tube in Ireland, the Darts are jam packed every morning and no one is going to force a sick child or any child into a packed Dart, they would be terrified, how can you get on a packed Dart with a child and a buggy and whatever else the child needs, this would be okay after ten in the morning but appointment times start at 9 AM. Where are you supposed to park your car if you drive to a Luas and yes, as I posted, I know young adults who are too afraid to travel on the Red Line through the city because of the junkies, this is a real problem and parents of sick children have enough problems without having to deal with aggressive junkies.

jmayo

Podge_irl wrote: »

It is not diminishing the seriousness of that situation to comment that it is not, in fact, the usual case for people travelling to the hospital.

People's ire over the parking spaces should be reserved for those who take them up when they really don't have to.

What is your definition of "when they really don't have to" ?

I know people that work in James both permanently and have to visit carrying out maintenance and repairs.
I know of one nurse that travels from South Wexford where she and her family live.
How is she meant to get to and from the hospital for her early or late shift ?

You maybe a green with this grand idea that people will be walking, cycling or catching public transport to this new hospital, but the reality is public transport is shyte all use to most people, both in and outside the Greater Dublin area.

And even if you are just going to visit someone are you going to spend hours waiting for public transport or will you drive?

If you are traveling from the country, and yes this is the NATIONAL CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL not the Dublin inner city children's hospital, are you meant to abandon your car at Liffey Valley, Red Cow, Blanchardstown and then try make your way to it by public transport?

I seriously think some people are clueless.

Podge_irl

jmayo wrote: »

And even if you are just going to visit someone are you going to spend hours waiting for public transport or will you drive?

If you are traveling from the country, and yes this is the NATIONAL CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL not the Dublin inner city children's hospital, are you meant to abandon your car at Liffey Valley, Red Cow, Blanchardstown and then try make your way to it by public transport?

Yes? What is so wrong with that? A 17 minute Luas trip will kill you?

On top of which , about a third of households in Dublin do not even own a car so have no choice but to take public transport, so accessibility by public transport is a pretty vital criteria.

Amirani

tretorn wrote: »

Comparing a hospital in London with traffic grid locked centre city Dublin is pointless. The Tube system carries millions of people every week and it has capacity most of the time.

London traffic is far worse than Dublin, and the tube system in Central London is ridiculously crowded and over capacity most of the time. It's a far worse place for a hospital inpatient to have to be than a bus or Luas.

handlemaster

not familiar with the details of this, but was a contract at a certain price not signed for the building ? At the very least if there were to be over costs a % or max should have been applied with sign of from the department of health...

tretorn

Amirani wrote: »

London traffic is far worse than Dublin, and the tube system in Central London is ridiculously crowded and over capacity most of the time. It's a far worse place for a hospital inpatient to have to be than a bus or Luas.

I dont agree, you could wait over twenty minutes for a bus if you cant get on one because its packed. There is a train every two minutes on the tube line. You can also criss cross the city very quickly in London, with lots of buses in Dublin you have to go into the city centre and then get another bus to your destination. Its the same with the Luas and the biggest problem with the Luas is the lack of parking spaces if you drive say from Wicklow to Cherrywood to catch a Luas to the city centre and then another Luas to James. The other alternative is to get a Dart into town which will be jampacked from Dunlaoghaire and then its another battle to get the Red Luas, maybe with junkies on board to James Street.

The Luas trains are much shorter than the tubes and the Luas is also very slow, its completely full to capacity every morning and evening and anyone taking a sick child to hospital will drive the same way parents drive to crumlin rather than use inadequate public transport.

I can understand the costs increasing but genuinely cant understand why those in charge cant explain the cost over runs. There information has to be there, with every change there should be costings and surely someone involved should know in detail where the money was going. Harris should be able to ask officials for a breakdownwithout paying PWC a shed load of money. If he cant get this information this means he isnt on top of his brief, its him who should be resigning and instead of this we have unknown officials heads on plates.

Leo hasnt a clue either, first we are told individuals wont be named while PWC look at the accounts and then to dampen down disquiet Vradkar says people will be named, he should know full well this will means truckloads of money going on legal costs and whats to be gained by naming people anyway. the buck stops with Vradkar and Harris and the Civil Service unions wont stand for any of their members being thrown under a bus.

jmayo

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yes? What is so wrong with that? A 17 minute Luas trip will kill you?

Yes it might well kill a child with very low resistance to infection, but going by your attitude you couldn't give a sh*t about them so long as they used public transport.

BTW 17 minutes from where ?

Podge_irl wrote: »

On top of which , about a third of households in Dublin do not even own a car so have no choice but to take public transport, so accessibility by public transport is a pretty vital criteria.

Ah yes lets build a national children's hospital for 1/3 of Dublin's households.

Podge_irl

jmayo wrote: »

Yes it might well kill a child with very low resistance to infection, but going by your attitude you couldn't give a sh*t about them so long as they used public transport.

BTW 17 minutes from where ?

:rolleyes:

you wrote:

And even if you are just going to visit someone are you going to spend hours waiting for public transport or will you drive?

I was clearly referring to those visiting the hospital. And its 17 mins from the Red Cow.

This attitude is prevalent constantly when discussing public transport - people take the extreme cases and proclaim how it won't work. It is tedious beyond words.

jmayo wrote: »

Ah yes lets build a national children's hospital for 1/3 of Dublin's households.

The majority of people using the hospital will be from Dublin.

beauf

Podge_irl wrote: »

...This attitude is prevalent constantly when discussing public transport - people take the extreme cases and proclaim how it won't work. It is tedious beyond words.....

They did a study on it and about 10-15% or something use Public Transport.

Not that facts are important here.

Podge_irl

beauf wrote: »

They did a study on it and about 10-15% or something use Public Transport.

Not that facts are important here.

10-15% of who use public transport?

tototoe

Is the " most expensive hospital in the world" not based in cost per bed, and not the total cost. By that metric it is well and truly up there. There are more expensive hospitals, but on cost per bed...

This is what most media and politicians are using and is a very valid metric.

James Brown

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Bit of a dig there? I'm not the one who designed it, i'm simply trying to explain how it is as i see it from my position.


Either way I agree, its not a spaceship, but it has been pinned as the worlds most advanced paed hospital iirc. However, if they spent the last decade actually designing and preparing a spec for the fcuking thing we wouldnt be in this mess, instead they spent god knows how much time and money trying to figure out where to put this underdesigned - half specified hospital.

You sure?
It's like everything else, IW, this, Brexit etc. they'll spend good money on research and consultants. After it becomes apparent they made a pigs ear of it they'll be throwing their hands up like they went into it blindfolded.

ToBeFrank123

facehugger99 wrote: »

There’s plenty of examples of unforeseen ground conditions or uncharted services adding to the tender cost.

And these unforeseen ground conditions and uncharted services added a couple hundred million to the project or effectively the price of another hospital?

Pull the other one.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Pioneering new Emergency Care Hospital close to completion

17 February 2015

Sir Bruce Keogh at the construction site of the Cramlington HospitalSir Bruce Keogh is set to see the progress being made on the new Emergency Care Hospital being built in Northumberland – the first purpose-built hospital of its kind in England.

NHS England’s National Medical Director will be given a tour of the £90million development next month – just over a year since he was guest of honour for the topping out ceremony.






LINK

BUMP.... (for the benefit of those who haven't seen it earlier in the thread)

facehugger99

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

And these unforeseen ground conditions and uncharted services added a couple hundred million to the project or effectively the price of another hospital?

Pull the other one.

You seem to have some inside knowledge of where the additional costs have come from - why not post it up so we can discuss?

ToBeFrank123

seamus wrote: »

Go to other hospitals.

It's a simple fact of our population distribution that having specialist care facilities all over the country would mean that each of those care facilities provides worse healthcare than one or two large specialist facilities that do all the work.

Then you add on the need for infrastructure and co-location and it becomes obvious that building a huge children's hospital in the middle of a green field in rural Co. Laois might work out cheaper, but it won't be a good hospital.

Ok show me a single post on this thread where I said build the hospital in Co. Laois.

Plenty of people have said build it outside the M50 but within 10-15minutes of Dublin City and also easily accessible for the rest of the country. This would be the most forward thinking approach. Instead of building it in a traffic congestion blackspot.

As for building it in Dublin city, there is also no guarantee it will be a good hospital. They are already hiring for the new hospital and struggling to fill a large number of posts. We've seen plenty of scandals and mistakes in our health system lately.

The point is specialist facilities should be centralised but they should be easily accessible to EVERYONE in the country. Because EVERYONE paid taxes for this hospital, a point that completely goes over the heads of some people, who want everything built on their doorstep but expect the rest to pay for it.

ToBeFrank123

facehugger99 wrote: »

You seem to have some inside knowledge of where the additional costs have come from - why not post it up so we can discuss?

I don't but I should. That's the point of transparency. It would be great if Simon Harris published a report on where the additional costs came from.

Amirani

Amirani wrote: »

London traffic is far worse than Dublin, and the tube system in Central London is ridiculously crowded and over capacity most of the time. It's a far worse place for a hospital inpatient to have to be than a bus or Luas.

I spent 3 full months in London with a sick child (referred there from Dublin). We travelled daily from Barnes to St Barts hospital and back. Never once was there a delay.

Transport may be busy but things run very much on time in London. This is paramount for a stressed parent trying to get to hospital tests, doctors, radiotheraphy, scans.
I WILL add we got overground trains everyday, not Tube , I'd imagine Tube would have been tougher. But I'd still opt for that over the many trips we made to Crumlin hospital through traffic jams in Dublin.

The Alder Hey in Liverpool is a brilliant example of a well thought out Childrens hospital - green field site, 5 minutes off M62 ,tons of parking, room for expansion, cost far less than 2Billion Euro too.

AndrewJRenko

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

seamus wrote: »

Go to other hospitals.

It's a simple fact of our population distribution that having specialist care facilities all over the country would mean that each of those care facilities provides worse healthcare than one or two large specialist facilities that do all the work.

Then you add on the need for infrastructure and co-location and it becomes obvious that building a huge children's hospital in the middle of a green field in rural Co. Laois might work out cheaper, but it won't be a good hospital.

Ok show me a single post on this thread where I said build the hospital in Co. Laois.

Plenty of people have said build it outside the M50 but within 10-15minutes of Dublin City and also easily accessible for the rest of the country. This would be the most forward thinking approach. Instead of building it in a traffic congestion blackspot.

As for building it in Dublin city, there is also no guarantee it will be a good hospital. They are already hiring for the new hospital and struggling to fill a large number of posts. We've seen plenty of scandals and mistakes in our health system lately.

The point is specialist facilities should be centralised but they should be easily accessible to EVERYONE in the country. Because EVERYONE paid taxes for this hospital, a point that completely goes over the heads of some people, who want everything built on their doorstep but expect the rest to pay for it.

Except that moving it OUTSIDE the city makes it much less accessible for the vast majority of Dubliners who live INSIDE the city.

Snow Garden

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Except that moving it OUTSIDE the city makes it much less accessible for the vast majority of Dubliners who live INSIDE the city.

Nonsense argument. Lucan, Clondalkin, Swords, Tallaght, Mulhuddart, Stepaside are all outside the M50....for example. I imagine the folks in Dun Laoghaire would rather get the M50 to a hospital than venture thru town.

The location chosen was idiotic.

beauf

Podge_irl wrote: »

10-15% of who use public transport?

Go look at the studies they did for the mater and James regarding people using the current hospitals they are replacing. Patients, staff visitors etc.

One of my favourites is when they estimated travel time by ambulance but not at peak. Lots of clever stuff like that.

Podge_irl

beauf wrote: »

Go look at the studies they did for the mater and James regarding people using the current hospitals they are replacing. Patients, staff visitors etc.

One of my favourites is when they estimated travel time by ambulance but not at peak. Lots of clever stuff like that.

That's not really answering my question.

I'll assume you mean the reports stated 10-15% of people attending the current children's hospitals go by public transport? If so what is your point?

ToBeFrank123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Except that moving it OUTSIDE the city makes it much less accessible for the vast majority of Dubliners who live INSIDE the city.

You call 10-15 minutes outside the city not accessible for Dubliners?

What about parents of sick children from western seaboard who face a 4 or 5 hour journey just to get to Dublin?

beauf

Podge_irl wrote: »

...
This attitude is prevalent constantly when discussing public transport - people take the extreme cases and proclaim how it won't work. It is tedious beyond words.....

What's tedious is complaining about the lack of people using public transport without any useful insight about why they don't use it.

Podge_irl

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

You call 10-15 minutes outside the city not accessible for Dubliners?

What happened to the apocalyptic levels of traffic?

jmayo

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Except that moving it OUTSIDE the city makes it much less accessible for the vast majority of Dubliners who live INSIDE the city.

So here we are folks.

National now means it is for Dublin City, not greater Dublin mind and definitely not for the culchies outside The Pale.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

You call 10-15 minutes outside the city not accessible for Dubliners?

What about parents of sick children from western seaboard who face a 4 or 5 hour journey just to get to Dublin?

Well according to the andy renkos of this country, they go and shag themselves, they don't matter this is for Dublin City folk.
Basically the ones between the canals.

And shure besides they can follow Podge & Rodge's idea and travel the hours to the Red Cow and then spend 17 minutes (probably optimistic as well) on the junkie Luas to the hospital.

BTW most people in Dublin metro area will probably drive bar the ones living right along the Luas or the ones in the actual city centre.

Or is it a case they will drive to the Dundrums, Jervis Streets, Liffey Valleys, Tallaght Squares, Blanchardstown centres, but decide to take their sick kids to hospital by bus, Dart and Luas.

IngazZagni

Auguste Comte wrote: »

There was a hard shoulder that could be used in an emergency to access Blanch. For anyone coming from the country the m50 traffic will be just the start of their battle with Dublin traffic instead of end of it. I suppose if it was important enough a sick child could be flown in by helicopter except they can't because there is no where to land one.

Let’s not be misleading here. There will be a helipad on the roof.

The issue with the location has been done to death. There was no clear majority for any specific location. The professionals decided that this was the best location for loads of different reasons. Personally I had my doubts as well but here we are. People do need to be held accountable for this mess but beyond all that we need to get on with it.
Stopping this from being built now will end up costing us 4-500 million and that’s before we start building something elsewhere. It’ll also mean our children will be forced to attend hospitals unfit for purpose for another 4-5 years.

The construction of this project is already a year on and we need to continue it. Keep a focus on cost discipline from here on in.

In 2021 we will then have a hospital we can be proud of despite the costs.

I also want to add as some people forget that this hospital will have nearly 700 underground parking spaces reserved for visitors and family members as well as on site accommodation facilities removing the need to travel every day for very sick children.

alloywheel

The government and HSE here could not organize a piss up in a brewery,despite they fact they are so overpaid. What a waste of taxpayers money. An awful pity we are not part of the NHS.

jmayo

IngazZagni wrote: »

Let’s not be misleading here. There will be a helipad on the roof.

Yes and unfit for the coast guard helicopters that carry out a lot of our search and rescue work.

So let you not be misleading.

ToBeFrank123

Podge_irl wrote: »

What happened to the apocalyptic levels of traffic?

A greenfield site would have far less levels or concentration of traffic.

As for the much heralded garden and green spaces in the new hospital, it won't be much good to the children if they are breathing in dirty city air and diesel emissions.

That's not to mention the stress levels dealing with Dublin city centre traffic.

Tacitus Kilgore

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You sure?
.

Honestly, it looks like a vulva to me :pac:

IngazZagni

IngazZagni wrote: »

Let’s not be misleading here. There will be a helipad on the roof.


……but one that bigger helicopters cannot land on! So if there was an emergency in mountains, at beaches, on the sea, a major fire let say in Centre Parcs in Longford …. none of the bigger search and rescue helicopters could ferry children to this hospital.... which makes no sense.
If it was built on a greenfield site no problems landing multiple helicopters anywhere as they're landing on the ground not on a roof!

This hospital is going to built for the next few generations of children - any kind of emergency scenario could happen in the future and its too late for wringing of hands then! It needs to be built for purpose now.

IngazZagni

jmayo wrote: »

Yes and unfit for the coast guard helicopters that carry out a lot of our search and rescue work.

So let you not be misleading.

I didn't know that but makes sense considering how large those sikorsky's are. The Air Corps can be called to operate these missions and I hope they will have the resources in place to do that.
Absolute emergencies will continue to be treated at any A&E.

alloywheel

Exactly, it not too late for the government and HSE to put their hands up and admit they made a mistake and build it in a more central location for the country, on a greenfield site. Let the existing city site be put to use for something else eg housing, which is badly needed in Dublin.

beauf

Its waaaaayy too late. Its done. This thread is about 4yrs too late.

ToBeFrank123

beauf wrote: »

Its waaaaayy too late. Its done. This thread is about 4yrs too late.

I know what you are saying.

We all put our faith in the experts, politicians, architects of the project.

People were willing to stomach the location as long as the cost was reasonable.

But now the cost has ballooned, the location is clearly not suitable and the building has many short comings, not least the lack of a helipad for larger search and rescue helicopters. That and its inaccessibility because of traffic.

The experts and politicians and so on have clearly made a b*lls of it. Like you say its late now but not too late. Better late than never as they say.

The whole thing is a mess and someone needs to be held accountable.

AndrewJRenko

Snow Garden wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Except that moving it OUTSIDE the city makes it much less accessible for the vast majority of Dubliners who live INSIDE the city.

Nonsense argument. Lucan, Clondalkin, Swords, Tallaght, Mulhuddart, Stepaside are all outside the M50....for example. I imagine the folks in Dun Laoghaire would rather get the M50 to a hospital than venture thru town.

The location chosen was idiotic.

Do you want me to list all the communities that are inside the M50 who would be inconvenienced by moving the location outside? Lots of people live inside the M50 and even more work there.

Calling something ridiculous just because it doesn't suit you isn't a great approach to policy making.

AndrewJRenko

jmayo wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Except that moving it OUTSIDE the city makes it much less accessible for the vast majority of Dubliners who live INSIDE the city.

So here we are folks.

National now means it is for Dublin City, not greater Dublin mind and definitely not for the culchies outside The Pale.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

You call 10-15 minutes outside the city not accessible for Dubliners?

What about parents of sick children from western seaboard who face a 4 or 5 hour journey just to get to Dublin?

Well according to the andy renkos of this country, they go and shag themselves, they don't matter this is for Dublin City folk.
Basically the ones between the canals.

And shure besides they can follow Podge & Rodge's idea and travel the hours to the Red Cow and then spend 17 minutes (probably optimistic as well) on the junkie Luas to the hospital.

BTW most people in Dublin metro area will probably drive bar the ones living right along the Luas or the ones in the actual city centre.

Or is it a case they will drive to the Dundrums, Jervis Streets, Liffey Valleys, Tallaght Squares, Blanchardstown centres, but decide to take their sick kids to hospital by bus, Dart and Luas.

You can play the outrage card all you like, but it's generally better to take a dispassionate look at the facts instead.

Auguste Comte

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Snow Garden wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Except that moving it OUTSIDE the city makes it much less accessible for the vast majority of Dubliners who live INSIDE the city.

Nonsense argument. Lucan, Clondalkin, Swords, Tallaght, Mulhuddart, Stepaside are all outside the M50....for example. I imagine the folks in Dun Laoghaire would rather get the M50 to a hospital than venture thru town.

The location chosen was idiotic.

Do you want me to list all the communities that are inside the M50 who would be inconvenienced by moving the location outside? Lots of people live inside the M50 and even more work there.

Calling something ridiculous just because it doesn't suit you isn't a great approach to policy making.

Which would be a good argument for placing the Dublin children's hospital inside the canals.

beauf

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I know what you are saying.

... Like you say its late now but not too late. Better late than never as they say.
...

To move it again would probably cost 3bn.

I don't think there is enough support to stomach that. Regardless of anything else.

ToBeFrank123

beauf wrote: »

To move it again would probably cost 3bn.

I don't think there is enough support to stomach that. Regardless of anything else.

They are still in the foundations stage so nope it wouldn't cost 3 billion. At most a couple hundred million lost at this stage. They can even keep the same design.

They can put it out to tender again, a proper one this time, instead of a sham like the last one. I'd favour an international construction company with a long established history in projects like this, maybe a company like this https://www.ncc.group/

And finally they can sell the land around St James for housing. We are near the peak of the market again so they should easily recoup a couple hundred million. That's unless corruption gets in the way.

Podge_irl

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

They are still in the foundations stage so nope it wouldn't cost 3 billion. At most a couple hundred million lost at this stage. They can even keep the same design.

They can put it out to tender again, a proper one this time, instead of the sham like the last one. I'd favour an international construction company with a long established history in projects like this, maybe a company like this https://www.ncc.group/

And finally they can sell the land around St James for housing. We are near the peak of the market again so they should easily recoup a couple hundred million. That's unless corruption gets in the way.

Except they would need to build an adult teaching hospital beside it on a greenfield site and decommission one of the adult teaching hospitals already in use. So probably more like 5 or 6 billion.

Podge_irl

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Which would be a good argument for placing the Dublin children's hospital inside the canals.

You are aware that it is not going to be literally the only hospital in Ireland caring for children?

It will be the primary hospital for children in Dublin and the the primary hospital for highly specialised care nationwide. The majority of the patients will be from Dublin.

facehugger99

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

They are still in the foundations stage so nope it wouldn't cost 3 billion. At most a couple hundred million lost at this stage. They can even keep the same design.

They can put it out to tender again, a proper one this time, instead of the sham like the last one. I'd favour an international construction company with a long established history in projects like this, maybe a company like this https://www.ncc.group/And finally they can sell the land around St James for housing. We are near the peak of the market again so they should easily recoup a couple hundred million. That's unless corruption gets in the way.

Doesn't really matter what kind of company you'd favour, that's not how EU procurement processes or laws operate.

As for the rest of your post, it's full of figures you've presumably pulled from your arse, not to mention the lost time of starting from scratch on the location issue.

ToBeFrank123

Podge_irl wrote: »

Except they would need to build an adult teaching hospital beside it on a greenfield site and decommission one of the adult teaching hospitals already in use. So probably more like 5 or 6 billion.

Why the 5 or 6 billion? The Brits were able to build a 1200 bed adult hospital in Birmingham for £565 Million a couple years ago.

Why do our hospitals cost many multiples of everywhere else?

Its either because of political incompetence or corruption or a mixture of both.