€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

Podge_irl

jmayo wrote: »

PS I know of children that have had to make the trips to Temple St, Crumlin.
And they are either very sick getting much needed chemo or they are wheel chair bound.

But I suppose according to you they should just park up at the Red Cow after driving from Mayo and then get on the fooking Luas to your precious fooking ill placed hospital.

A better way of phrasing this would be:

Do I think your niece/nephew/cousin should have better clinical outcomes even though it requires you to have to get on a Luas to go visit them

And the answer would be yes.

Rush hour into town is a couple hours. The medical expertise is there. It will massively inconvenience some people, I don't argue otherwise. However, it is a location that is difficult to access by private transport for a couple hours a day, but brings huge expertise, research and other attendant benefits from being the largest hospital in Ireland with the most specialities. If you were given the choice for your kid of a more convenient location but slightly worse outcomes what would you pick?

cnocbui

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why?

Because your ridiculous utterance suggests very strongly that you don't.

Podge_irl

cnocbui wrote: »

Because your ridiculous utterance suggests very strongly that you don't.

Would you rather that you could easily drive to a hospital or that your kids would get the best care once they are there?

iamwhoiam

It cant be rocket science to give high risk immuno suppresssed patients a pass to park in designated spaces . Not every child attending out patients needs to come in cars . A child with special needs can be given a pass with the outpatient or addmission appointment letter
Oncology and immunosuppressed kids should get priority designated parking and this can't be that difficult to make work

salmocab

Podge_irl wrote: »

Would you rather that you could easily drive to a hospital or that your kids would get the best care once they are there?

Really we should be striving to have both, short sighted decisions have left us having to choose. We shouldn’t just accept here we are this is what we are doing. We should be building for kids whose parents haven’t even been born yet.

beauf

Podge_irl wrote: »

...- if the majority of people going to GOSH can take public transport, ....

...Can you share the figures that show the majority of all people going to gosh (not co-located?) Use public transport...

beauf

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It cant be rocket science to give high risk immuno suppresssed patients a pass to park in designated spaces . Not every child attending out patients needs to come in cars . A child with special needs can be given a pass with the outpatient or addmission appointment letter
Oncology and immunosuppressed kids should get priority designated parking and this can't be that difficult to make work

Lots in outpatients do...

Wheeliebin30

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Just thinking, if Fianna Fail are in any way an actual political party interested in politics and being in government because they feel their way would be better for the country, now's the time to strike, as it where. But they have it handy playing both sides I suppose, and of course they aren't.

What would that achieve Matt?

beauf

Podge_irl wrote: »

I...It is also only an onerous trip traffic wise during rush hour in the morning - .....

Did evening rush hour vanish..

Out patients usually start in the morning during rush hour. Same as everything else does.

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

It is all about patient outcomes. Co-location leads to better clinical outcomes and that is why the location was chosen. If you think that co-location with an adult teaching hospital and research facilities doesn't impact patient care feel free to explain why.

I hear you and kind of understand you on this one Podge_irl. The parking and transport situation has been debated and done to death from day 1.
But if we continue to build this fine new hospital and it continues to spiral far far out of budget, is it going to swallow a large chunk of the capital investment for the whole health service?

What of the cost of this for outcomes for patients in other hospitals?

Will patients in (just for example) Bantry, Castlebar and Drogheda suffer because funding is unavailable for their facilities to be upgraded or refurbished.

iamwhoiam

beauf wrote: »

Lots in outpatients do...

Yes lots do , lots don't . Exactly what I said

iamwhoiam

beauf wrote: »

...Can you share the figures that show the majority of all people going to gosh (not co-located?) Use public transport...

I believe there is a voluntary scheme in place where volunteers drive sick patients to GOSH and drop them to OPD and admissions .

Podge_irl

salmocab wrote: »

Really we should be striving to have both, short sighted decisions have left us having to choose. We shouldn’t just accept here we are this is what we are doing. We should be building for kids whose parents haven’t even been born yet.

Yes we should. But we do not have that option right now without much more massive investment and years of planning and it is frivolous to pretend otherwise. I am not arguing against a tri-located hospital - the Beaumont proposal at Belmont was pretty enticing. Given the fact that the Mater site was rejected the Dolphin report legitimately looked at proposed developments for tri-located sites with no other planning permission as risky. Not to mention that the practicalities of moving a huge teaching hospital are complicated.

beauf wrote: »

Did evening rush hour vanish..

Out patients usually start in the morning during rush hour. Same as everything else does.

Evening rush hour doesn't tend to be an issue going into town.

Podge_irl

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I hear you and kind of understand you on this one Podge_irl. The parking and transport situation has been debated and done to death from day 1.
But if we continue to build this fine new hospital and it continues to spiral far far out of budget, is it going to swallow a large chunk of the capital investment for the whole health service?

What of the cost of this for outcomes for patients in other hospitals?

Will patients in (just for example) Bantry, Castlebar and Drogheda suffer because funding is unavailable for their facilities to be upgraded or refurbished.

Yes, though is anything about the spiralling out of budget specific to the location? I know the location is not ideal, that is not up for debate, but the question is whether the location is the best. I have no time for anyone who claims the location is obviously awful - multiple reports have not cited co/tri-location as important for no reason. If you think access is a more important factor than debate it in that terms, but know that you are debating it against the co/tri-location factors. Statistics on healthcare outcomes are a much harder factor for people to understand than traffic and I understand that - but what has happened here is that the government have actually essentially abdicated the decision to professionals and now they are getting **** for not having more government interference.

Auguste Comte

Ar we really getting best value for our 1.7 or 2 or 2.7 billion € or how ever much it will end up costing us?

Cushie Butterfield

jmayo wrote: »

Someone I know fell whilst horse riding in Wicklow. They were picked up by Rescue 117 and transferred not to nearest A&E, but Beuamont because they feared head trauma.
What if that was a child, should they not be airlifted direct to the best hospital

The larger rescue helicopters will land minutes away in the Royal Hospital Kilmainham, where a waiting ambulance will transport the child to James’s. LUAS traffic signals can be ‘rigged’ to ensure a speedy journey for the short stretch of road in the event that there’s heavy traffic on James’s St, so this particular point isn’t a big issue.

Wheeliebin30

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Ar we really getting best value for our 1.7 or 2 or 2.7 billion € or how ever much it will end up costing us?

Our welfare budget is 20 billion a year.

Health is 14 billion a year.

A children’s hospital for many years might be 1.7 billion.

This outrage is a political stunt by the opposition.

We need this hospital built now.

salmocab

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

This outrage is a political stunt by the opposition.

Everything opposition does is a stunt but this doesn’t mean that in this case they don’t have a point. This is a mess of a project and yes we do need it but at what cost? I don’t think it’s good enough to say well we’ve come this far let’s just keep chucking money at it and promise we get the next thing right.

Wheeliebin30

salmocab wrote: »

Everything opposition does is a stunt but this doesn’t mean that in this case they don’t have a point. This is a mess of a project and yes we do need it but at what cost? I don’t think it’s good enough to say well we’ve come this far let’s just keep chucking money at it and promise we get the next thing right.

Let’s stop it for another 20 years so.

I work in crumlin hospital it’s a disgrace of a kip.

But sure let’s halt construction.

Cushie Butterfield

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Our welfare budget is 20 billion a year.

Health is 14 billion a year.

A children’s hospital for many years might be 1.7 billion.

This outrage is a political stunt by the opposition.

Yes, but if Child Benefit Payments were reduced/scrapped/means tested to help balance the books I doubt if that would be a very popular idea - political suicide.

salmocab

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Let’s stop it for another 20 years so.

I work in crumlin hospital it’s a disgrace of a kip.

But sure let’s halt construction.

Where are you getting 20 years from? I’ve agreed we need the hospital and I’m aware what Crumlins like, I was actually there today. That’s doesn’t mean we should just plow on throwing money we don’t have around.

Podge_irl

salmocab wrote: »

Everything opposition does is a stunt but this doesn’t mean that in this case they don’t have a point. This is a mess of a project and yes we do need it but at what cost? I don’t think it’s good enough to say well we’ve come this far let’s just keep chucking money at it and promise we get the next thing right.

The choice of James' was not a political decision - it ratified an independent expert report. What people are asking for is more political interference, not less.

Wheeliebin30

salmocab wrote: »

Where are you getting 20 years from? I’ve agreed we need the hospital and I’m aware what Crumlins like, I was actually there today. That’s doesn’t mean we should just plow on throwing money we don’t have around.

Well we have been planning this hospital for the last 20 years although it’s been talked about since 1962.

Auguste Comte

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Ar we really getting best value for our 1.7 or 2 or 2.7 billion € or how ever much it will end up costing us?

Our welfare budget is 20 billion a year.

Health is 14 billion a year.

A children’s hospital for many years might be 1.7 billion.

This outrage is a political stunt by the opposition.

We need this hospital built now.

In fairness that sounds like a no but ye are going to have to suck it up, scripted by FG's strategic communications unit. (Leo's liars).

fly_agaric

jmayo wrote: »

There are a couple of posters here continously lecturing us how expert reports have stated the James site is the best location.

One poster even reminded us that another Expert report had stated the Mater sitre was the first chosen and it was only because of the planners that it was dismissed.

So a bunch of experts had once said the Mater was the best site.

How come then so many doctors working in the area of paediatrics had gone against these experts ?
Were they wrong ?

And of course this leads me to wonder if a bunch of experts got it wrong with the Mater site, could a bunch of experts possibly be wrong with the James site ?

Going just from memory of media reports at the time without checking anything (which could be dangerous...)
AFAIR the James site was the next in list in report that chose the Mater as preferred location for the hospital. I presume Mater site was then eliminated as an option after govt. decided to start again & not appeal after An Bord Pleanala rejected the hospital. So choosing the James site doesn't seem crazy to me if they were just working off same/similar methodology to original report.

Apropos of nothing I wonder how the people involved in that ABP decision feel about it now...would find my conscience would be itching me but maybe they think it was a job well done! Takes all sorts.

edit: couldn't believe it at the time myself (1. that it was actually rejected, and 2. the govt. rolled over + scrapped this massive project without so much as a whimper. As far as I remember there was no real questioning of the wisdom of this decision in the media either. FG were just let away with it IMO.).

Wheeliebin30

Podge_irl wrote: »

The choice of James' was not a political decision - it ratified an independent expert report. What people are asking for is more political interference, not less.

Armchair experts all of a sudden coming out of the woodwork.

No wonder this country never gets things we need.

tayto lover

According to the medical people being interviewed by Pat Kenny on Newstalk radio the hospital is being built in the wrong site at too high a price.
If true it should be stopped and moved to Blanchardstown.

salmocab

Podge_irl wrote: »

The choice of James' was not a political decision - it ratified an independent expert report. What people are asking for is more political interference, not less.

I haven’t made any claims that it was political, I do accept that the independent report decided on James’s but that doesn’t mean they got the weighting right in their decision. Or indeed their decision right. I also think that it is the job of government to step in when something the tax payers are funding is going belly up before our eyes and make decisions. I don’t accept that they should do nothing as it’s political interference. I’m not expecting much from them though.

Wheeliebin30

Auguste Comte wrote: »

In fairness that sounds like a no but ye are going to have to suck it up, scripted by FG's strategic communications unit. (Leo's liars).

What’s a no?

What’s your alternative to a much needed children’s hospital for 60 years?

SEPT 23 1989

The more they say this just has to go ahead no matter what

it gets more and more suspicious

Wheeliebin30

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

What’s a no?

What’s your alternative to a much needed children’s hospital for 60 years?

We're f*cked whichever way we go in this debate arent we.

Go ahead with the hospital and its going to run wildly over budget.
Cancel the hospital and it will be another decade before its up and running.

Auguste Comte

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Auguste Comte wrote: »

In fairness that sounds like a no but ye are going to have to suck it up, scripted by FG's strategic communications unit. (Leo's liars).

What’s a no?

What’s your alternative to a much needed children’s hospital for 60 years?

The no i was referring to was your waffly non answer to the question I asked.

My alternative to the current fiasco would be to give the two billion euro budget to the gentleman that built the Blackrock clinic and get him to oversee the project.

Politicians make self interested political decisions and have already messed up this project and the brexit attitude of we made a decision and are going to see it through no matter how bad that decision was is not what is best for the future kids of this country.

ToBeFrank123

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yes we should. But we do not have that option right now without much more massive investment and years of planning and it is frivolous to pretend otherwise. I am not arguing against a tri-located hospital - the Beaumont proposal at Belmont was pretty enticing. Given the fact that the Mater site was rejected the Dolphin report legitimately looked at proposed developments for tri-located sites with no other planning permission as risky. Not to mention that the practicalities of moving a huge teaching hospital are complicated.



Evening rush hour doesn't tend to be an issue going into town.

When the population of Dublin vastly increases as its predicted to do, how do they plan to expand this hospital? Even the design is beginning to look obsolete. Where is the future proofing in terms of expansion? Another couple of stories? How much will that cost? The benefits of a greenfield site is plenty of scope for expansion if required. We're told it will be mostly used by Dubliners yet no mention of future population increases. This hospital is a very short term fix and will likely be too small in a decade. Scope for significant (up to 50%) expansion is a must. Another fail for the design and location.

SEPT 23 1989

Auguste Comte wrote: »

The no i was referring to was your waffly non answer to the question I asked.

My alternative to the current fiasco would be to give the two billion euro budget to the gentleman that built the Blackrock clinic and get him to oversee the project.

Politicians make self interested political decisions and have already messed up this project and the brexit attitude of we made a decision and are going to see it through no matter how bad that decision was is not what is best for the future kids of this country.

Same bloke who built the private hospital in Lucan

He bought complete operating theatres in Germany they had them installed in six weeks over here

Bought in the 90's never needed a lick of paint only replaced in the last few years

Difference is he was paying for it out his own pocket

No overrun

ToBeFrank123

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

We're f*cked whichever way we go in this debate arent we.

Go ahead with the hospital and its going to run wildly over budget.
Cancel the hospital and it will be another decade before its up and running.

What was missing from day one was a long term vision of a hospital and location that was easily accessible with scope for relatively easy expansion. A hospital that benefitted all the children and parents of Ireland no matter where they are from.

What we got was a "Dublin first" model that benefits no one and is located in a traffic blackspot with significant work required just to prepare the site. That's not to mention all the planning delays.

If the first approach was taken this hospital would have been opened years ago at a fraction of the price.

Snow Garden

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you want me to list all the communities that are inside the M50 who would be inconvenienced by moving the location outside? Lots of people live inside the M50 and even more work there.

Calling something ridiculous just because it doesn't suit you isn't a great approach to policy making.

To be honest I think you're making a fool of yourself now.

Wheeliebin30

Auguste Comte wrote: »

The no i was referring to was your waffly non answer to the question I asked.

My alternative to the current fiasco would be to give the two billion euro budget to the gentleman that built the Blackrock clinic and get him to oversee the project.

Politicians make self interested political decisions and have already messed up this project and the brexit attitude of we made a decision and are going to see it through no matter how bad that decision was is not what is best for the future kids of this country.

Can you show me facts and figures for the cost been 2 billion?

No you can’t cause you’re another keyboard spoofer

AndrewJRenko

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I believe there is a voluntary scheme in place where volunteers drive sick patients to GOSH and drop them to OPD and admissions .

There are some similar schemes in Ireland for cancer patients too, afaik.

jmayo wrote: »

There are a couple of posters here continously lecturing us how expert reports have stated the James site is the best location.

One poster even reminded us that another Expert report had stated the Mater sitre was the first chosen and it was only because of the planners that it was dismissed.

So a bunch of experts had once said the Mater was the best site.

How come then so many doctors working in the area of paediatrics had gone against these experts ?
Were they wrong ?

And of course this leads me to wonder if a bunch of experts got it wrong with the Mater site, could a bunch of experts possibly be wrong with the James site ?

Why do say that 'they got it wrong' with the Mater? Planning applications get rejected all the time, whether by the local authority or by ABP. That doesn't mean that someone 'got it wrong'. Planning is somewhat unpredictable, especially when pushing the boundaries of usual limitations. It's down to personal judgement of the Bord members on any given day. It doesn't mean anyone 'got it wrong'.


Any how many paediatric doctors have gone against the expert report? What percentage of paediatric doctors do these represent?

salmocab

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

What was missing from day one was a long term vision of a hospital and location that was easily accessible with scope for relatively easy expansion. A hospital that benefitted all the children and parents of Ireland no matter where they are from.

What we got was a "Dublin first" model that benefits no one and is located in a traffic blackspot with significant work required just to prepare the site. That's not to mention all the planning delays.

If the first approach was taken this hospital would have been opened years ago at a fraction of the price.

Ah this Dublin stuff is just nonsense, it was always going to be and should be in Dublin. This doesn’t suit a huge amount of Dubs and most I talk to think it’s the wrong location. Of all the things worth complaining about ‘Dublin first’ as you put it is just looking for an angle that doesn’t exist.

Auguste Comte

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Auguste Comte wrote: »

The no i was referring to was your waffly non answer to the question I asked.

My alternative to the current fiasco would be to give the two billion euro budget to the gentleman that built the Blackrock clinic and get him to oversee the project.

Politicians make self interested political decisions and have already messed up this project and the brexit attitude of we made a decision and are going to see it through no matter how bad that decision was is not what is best for the future kids of this country.

Can you show me facts and figures for the cost been 2 billion?

No you can’t cause you’re another keyboard spoofer

You might inform us all what the final cost will be then?

ToBeFrank123

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

When the population of Dublin vastly increases as its predicted to do, how do they plan to expand this hospital? Even the design is beginning to look obsolete. Where is the future proofing in terms of expansion? Another couple of stories?

Will it need much extension? Births peaked in 2009 and its been on the way down since.

Wheeliebin30

All I can take from the last few pages is the frustration previous governments faced when trying to build this hospital.

No matter what people will give out.

Just build it and be done.

ToBeFrank123

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Let’s stop it for another 20 years so.

I work in crumlin hospital it’s a disgrace of a kip.

But sure let’s halt construction.

Nope. Pick a couple of fields 10/15 minutes from Dublin. I'm sure some farmers would be happy to help. Fast track planning. Get that done in a year. Double the size of the proposed new hospital so it incorporates a moved St James. Reuse the plans from a recently built international hospital. Build the hospital. Once built sell off St James and current childrens site. They will get hundreds of millions for that site as its in a prime location for housing. Nama could build and sell the apartments.
At most this will cause a delay of 2 years.

Keep the Irish "experts" well away from the planning of the new hospital and only use outside experts.

This would be a once in a generation chance to build a great hospital in the right location while also freeing up much needed city centre land for accomodation. Its a no brainer.

salmocab

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Will it need much extension? Births peaked in 2009 and its been on the way down since.

The population of Dublin or even Ireland increasing is not to do with births but immigration

AndrewJRenko

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

They can put it out to tender again, a proper one this time, instead of a sham like the last one. I'd favour an international construction company with a long established history in projects like this, maybe a company like this https://www.ncc.group/

You know that BAM are an international construction company with an established history in hospital projects, right? How much do you reckon it will cost to walk away from the existing contract with BAM?

Snow Garden wrote: »

To be honest I think you're making a fool of yourself now.

To be honest, maybe we should focus on the issues instead of on our opinions of each other. Moving outside the M50 may well suit you, but it doesn't suit everybody. St James site is great for Ballyfermot, Palmerstown, Chapelizod, SCR, Rialto, Dolphin's Barn, Crumlin, Drimnagh, Walkinstown, Portobello, Smithfield, Stoneybatter, NCR, Kimmage, Inchicore, large swathes of the inner city and more.

ToBeFrank123

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Will it need much extension? Births peaked in 2009 and its been on the way down since.

Estimated by the CSO to grow by up to 400,000 by 2030 and up to 600,000 by 2050.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/dublin-s-development-plan-short-on-density-1.2867636?mode=amp

SEPT 23 1989

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You know that BAM are an international construction company with an established history in hospital projects, right? How much do you reckon it will cost to walk away from the existing contract with BAM?



To be honest, maybe we should focus on the issues instead of on our opinions of each other. Moving outside the M50 may well suit you, but it doesn't suit everybody. St James site is great for Ballyfermot, Palmerstown, Chapelizod, SCR, Rialto, Dolphin's Barn, Crumlin, Drimnagh, Walkinstown, Portobello, Smithfield, Stoneybatter, NCR, Kimmage, Inchicore, large swathes of the inner city and more.

Sure they can wheel the sick children down to the hospital in a pram

fly_agaric

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Sure they can wheel the sick children down to the hospital in a pram

Sure no one lives or rears kids in inner city Dublin...its all empty, just a potemkin villiage put up as a bit of a diversion for when people are driving up for shopping/concerts/flying abroad/match days in Croker!:pac:

fly_agaric

fly_agaric wrote: »

Sure no one lives or rears kids in inner city Dublin...its all empty, just a potemkin villiage put up as a bit of a diversion for when people are driving up for shopping/concerts/flying abroad/match days in Croker!:pac:

DCC are putting Social Housing in Temple Bar

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2019/0205/1027635-dublin-rapid-build/

AndrewJRenko

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Sure they can wheel the sick children down to the hospital in a pram

Yes indeed, and I know this might come as a bit of a shock to those who refuse to go more than 50m from their front door without a couple of thousand cc's of diesel burning underneath them, but yes, some people will indeed walk there with a pram, or travel on the Luas (running right through the middle of the site) with a buggy, or use a cargo bike for the kids or whatever.



There are other ways to travel with kids other than private cars on motorways.