€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

salmocab

I’ve avoided the car/public transport thing but my own albeit limited experience was having my son in the Coombe for the first five weeks of his life, the last thing I’d have wanted to do every evening after work would be to get the bus timetable out. It wouldn’t have been the end of the world or anything but there is far more to the parking thing than just the simple idea of kids to appointments, staff also finishing a long shift shouldn’t be expected to spend an hour or more on PT when a 20 minute drive would have them at home. I know not everyone gets a parking spot but nurses and doctors could be 12 hours or more on their feet. Shift workers sometimes work hours when PT isn’t available.

salmocab

salmocab wrote: »

The population of Dublin or even Ireland increasing is not to do with births but immigration

Exactly. Adults, not babies or children. And this is the childrens hospital.

Johnnyhpipe

The more I learn about this the more it seems like an absolute total and utter balls..

Johnnyhpipe

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

The more I learn about this the more it seems like an absolute total and utter balls..

It is...... But "we are where we are" etc

SEPT 23 1989

salmocab wrote: »

I’ve avoided the car/public transport thing but my own albeit limited experience was having my son in the Coombe for the first five weeks of his life, the last thing I’d have wanted to do every evening after work would be to get the bus timetable out. It wouldn’t have been the end of the world or anything but there is far more to the parking thing than just the simple idea of kids to appointments, staff also finishing a long shift shouldn’t be expected to spend an hour or more on PT when a 20 minute drive would have them at home. I know not everyone gets a parking spot but nurses and doctors could be 12 hours or more on their feet. Shift workers sometimes work hours when PT isn’t available.

The types who made this decision had their 100k cars parked in their private parking spaces on the left hand side of the door as you walk into the entrance of that hospital

Wheeliebin30

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

The more I learn about this the more it seems like an absolute total and utter balls..

Oh aren’t you fantastic for sticking your expertise in 2019, Jesus what did we do without your input since 1962 when this was first earmarked.

Well go on Einstein, let us hear your magical solution seems you’re “enlightened”?

Wheeliebin30

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The types who made this decision had their 100k cars parked in their private parking spaces on the left hand side of the door as you walk into the entrance of that hospital

Where?

What private spaces?

What 100k cars?

More populist lies.

Johnnyhpipe

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Oh aren’t you fantastic for sticking your expertise in 2019, Jesus what did we do without your input since 1962 when this was first earmarked.

Well go on Einstein, let us hear your magical solution seems you’re “enlightened”?

LOL

Wheeliebin30

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

LOL

You got me there.

did anyone hear the interview with the guy who built the hermitage and blackrock clinic etc, on budget?

Apparently some 1600 cars went up in flames in a multi-storey in the UK , Liverpool"1600"!!!! like caps... the temperature got to over 1000 degrees and when the experts were asked, what affect sprinklers would have had, it was laughed at as being so minimal.

Apparently fire engines here can only go up so far, and the hazards of fire alone are unreal because there's a multistore car cark going underneath. When as asked to weigh in at the time, this same guy said it would be the biggest mistake in the history of the state to built this thing how and where they planned, and they ignored him. That's just the safety aspect without all the other garbage going on with this trainwreck. The guy is on record as saying this.... Leos legacy eh! #leosbertiebowl

ToBeFrank123

rusty cole wrote: »

did anyone hear the interview with the guy who built the hermitage and blackrock clinic etc, on budget?

Private built hospitals so you would expect significant competence in the project commissioning and costing. I bet it didn't take him 20 years either to come up with a plan.

When you have a number of politicians who are looking to cement their legacy, you will always have problems and an attitude of build it at any cost with an open chequebook.

We need this hospital but on time and in budget. Its not too much to ask.

ToBeFrank123

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Private built hospitals so you would expect significant competence in the project commissioning and costing. I bet it didn't take him 20 years either to come up with a plan.

When you have a number of politicians who are looking to cement their legacy, you will always have problems and an attitude of build it at any cost with an open chequebook.

We need this hospital but on time and in budget. Its not too much to ask.

100% agree.

jmayo

Podge_irl wrote: »

They would still be brought to Beaumont in that scenario.

So why not site the new children's hospital in Beaumont then ?
I guess they haven't the political and academic clout of James. :rolleyes:

Podge_irl wrote: »

It is all about patient outcomes. Co-location leads to better clinical outcomes and that is why the location was chosen. If you think that co-location with an adult teaching hospital and research facilities doesn't impact patient care feel free to explain why.

So you are concerned about the patients again when you want to use the co-location argument.

Podge_irl wrote: »

A better way of phrasing this would be:

Do I think your niece/nephew/cousin should have better clinical outcomes even though it requires you to have to get on a Luas to go visit them

And the answer would be yes.

Rush hour into town is a couple hours. The medical expertise is there. It will massively inconvenience some people, I don't argue otherwise. However, it is a location that is difficult to access by private transport for a couple hours a day, but brings huge expertise, research and other attendant benefits from being the largest hospital in Ireland with the most specialities. If you were given the choice for your kid of a more convenient location but slightly worse outcomes what would you pick?

A couple of hours ?
James hospital itself should be redeveloped never mind add this and the new maternity hospital to it.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Would you rather that you could easily drive to a hospital or that your kids would get the best care once they are there?

As another poster asked why do you keep proposing a choice between shyte outcomes and shyte location ?

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why do say that 'they got it wrong' with the Mater? Planning applications get rejected all the time, whether by the local authority or by ABP. That doesn't mean that someone 'got it wrong'. Planning is somewhat unpredictable, especially when pushing the boundaries of usual limitations. It's down to personal judgement of the Bord members on any given day. It doesn't mean anyone 'got it wrong'.


Any how many paediatric doctors have gone against the expert report? What percentage of paediatric doctors do these represent?

The Mater was a disaster even worse than James as regards access.
And really if you argue otherwise then you really have your head firmly .... well you get my drift.

jmayo

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Our welfare budget is 20 billion a year.

Health is 14 billion a year.

A children’s hospital for many years might be 1.7 billion.

This outrage is a political stunt by the opposition.

We need this hospital built now.

At any cost, right ?

And the outrage is by the fookers that have to already pay for an incompetent ill functioning overpaid health service and now on top of that for a new hospital that will probably work out as one of the most expensive in the world in a location that most people do not want.

Maybe some of your fellow health service employees that don't happen to work in Crumlin, James might feel differently about having the entire capital budget hijacked for a couple of decades for this. :rolleyes:

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Let’s stop it for another 20 years so.

I work in crumlin hospital it’s a disgrace of a kip.

But sure let’s halt construction.

Someone with skin in the game.

BTW I could ask how much are you and your colleagues going to look for the inconvenience of moving from Crumlin to James ?

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Armchair experts all of a sudden coming out of the woodwork.

No wonder this country never gets things we need.

Well we have seen what some of the so called experts that work in our health service have achieved over the last couple of decades.

There has been some scandal every other year such as the regulation management of nursing homes, the regulation of care homes for the vulnerable, the management of child services that put children in positions to be raped, the management of our cervical smear testing being the latest fiasco.

And all of these scandals, bar maybe the cockup that was PPARS, have resulted in deaths and serious effects for the patients and clients of our health service.

Podge_irl

jmayo wrote: »

As another poster asked why do you keep proposing a choice between shyte outcomes and shyte location ?

Because that is the choice. A super secret third option doesn't exist.

jmayo wrote: »

So why not site the new children's hospital in Beaumont then ?
I guess they haven't the political and academic clout of James. :rolleyes:

Because Beaumont would have required the demolition of several structures before building could begin and there were concerns about getting planning permission in such a suburban area. This is all detailed in the report.

salmocab

Podge_irl wrote: »

Because that is the choice. A super secret third option doesn't exist.

Well to be fair Podge there is no second choice we are were we are. We were told this is what we’re getting and it’s the best option. I’m confident it’s not the best option, it may medically have quite a few pluses but it’s not a good choice long term. It’s hard to imagine that in 50 years time that James’s will still be all there on the site as it will need expansion and rebuilds over time.

ToBeFrank123

salmocab wrote: »

Well to be fair Podge there is no second choice we are were we are. We were told this is what we’re getting and it’s the best option. I’m confident it’s not the best option, it may medically have quite a few pluses but it’s not a good choice long term. It’s hard to imagine that in 50 years time that James’s will still be all there on the site as it will need expansion and rebuilds over time.

Agreed. Most if not all hospitals in Dublin will need expansion in the next 50 years to handle population increases. That is why any new hospital needs to be future proofed with a floor or two empty when built but fitted out when required. Otherwise it will be very expensive to start from scratch expanding them.

I don't see how the new children's hospital has a plan for expansion unless someone can point to it.

And by expansion you also require expansion of parking spaces, ability to cope with future traffic increases and so on.

New builds in Dublin should be planned for the needs of 20-30 years from now.

Expanding brownfield sites will always be vastly more expensive than greendfield ones.

BACfiar

bad site, bad planning - hopefully they can make the best of a bad situation even now

AndrewJRenko

Very mixed response to tweet from David McWilliams

The idea that "everyone knows" that James is wrong does not stand up

https://twitter.com/davidmcw/status/1085649406014062595?s=19

Wheeliebin30

jmayo wrote: »

At any cost, right ?

And the outrage is by the fookers that have to already pay for an incompetent ill functioning overpaid health service and now on top of that for a new hospital that will probably work out as one of the most expensive in the world in a location that most people do not want.

Maybe some of your fellow health service employees that don't happen to work in Crumlin, James might feel differently about having the entire capital budget hijacked for a couple of decades for this. :rolleyes:



Someone with skin in the game.

BTW I could ask how much are you and your colleagues going to look for the inconvenience of moving from Crumlin to James ?



Well we have seen what some of the so called experts that work in our health service have achieved over the last couple of decades.

There has been some scandal every other year such as the regulation management of nursing homes, the regulation of care homes for the vulnerable, the management of child services that put children in positions to be raped, the management of our cervical smear testing being the latest fiasco.

And all of these scandals, bar maybe the cockup that was PPARS, have resulted in deaths and serious effects for the patients and clients of our health service.

I’m self employed, crumlin is one one of many places I work.

Don’t work full time there.

Podge_irl

salmocab wrote: »

Well to be fair Podge there is no second choice we are were we are. We were told this is what we’re getting and it’s the best option. I’m confident it’s not the best option, it may medically have quite a few pluses but it’s not a good choice long term. It’s hard to imagine that in 50 years time that James’s will still be all there on the site as it will need expansion and rebuilds over time.

Have quite a few medical pluses shouldn't exactly be dismissed as readily as a lot of people seem willing to do though.

I don't really see why its hard to imagine James still being in situ in 50 years. It is pretty normal globally to have hospitals in city centre locations. Though the seeming allergy to high rise in Dublin will have to change if it is to make good use of the space you would think.

Thud

http://www.newchildrenshospital.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/NPHDB-information-boards-presentated-at-Resident-Drop-in-29th-June-2017.pdf
whats in the 5,000 other unaccounted for rooms?

salmocab

Podge_irl wrote: »

Have quite a few medical pluses shouldn't exactly be dismissed as readily as a lot of people seem willing to do though.

I don't really see why its hard to imagine James still being in situ in 50 years. It is pretty normal globally to have hospitals in city centre locations. Though the seeming allergy to high rise in Dublin will have to change if it is to make good use of the space you would think.

I certainly amn’t dismissing the medical pluses.
I didn’t say James’s wouldn’t be still in situ I said it’s hard to imagine it would all be on site. As the hospital needs expansions or new facilities they will have to eventually move off site some specialties,which will dilute the the co-location especially if they try to jam a full maternity hospital in.
The parking is going to be a big issue as around the Rialto area there is a lot of free parking that some staff currently use. The locals are going to push back against this once a few thousand builders descend on the area. When the build is finished whatever measures are put in place will remain making it even more of a difficult place to choose to work.

salmocab

Thud wrote: »

http://www.newchildrenshospital.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/NPHDB-information-boards-presentated-at-Resident-Drop-in-29th-June-2017.pdf
whats in the 5,000 other unaccounted for rooms?

Offices, store rooms,toilets, tea rooms, meeting rooms, electrical rooms, pump rooms, there would be piles of rooms not directly used for medical purposes.

iamwhoiam

salmocab wrote: »

Offices, store rooms,toilets, tea rooms, meeting rooms, electrical rooms, pump rooms, there would be piles of rooms not directly used for medical purposes.

Oupatients rooms , clinic rooms , x ray , physio, CAT scan , dieticians , pastoral care ,IT rooms , training rooms , etc etc etc etc

LorelaiG

It's already a lie anyway because it's not going to be tri-located.

ToBeFrank123

I'm guessing after the report from PWC the government will plough on regardless with the current location and plans because too much money has already been wasted. How much has been wasted no-one knows due to lack of transparency.
But at least there's foundations there for apartments or commercial buildings if they decide to change track.
It looks like preparing the foundations alone has cost several hundred million. We can only guess as no-one has the figures and no-one from the government is willing to publish them. So much for transparency.
Maybe a freedom of information request would tell us.
Harris either took his eye off the ball or hoped to hoodwink us all.

jmayo

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I’m self employed, crumlin is one one of many places I work.

Don’t work full time there.

Fair enough.
Do you also work in James ?

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I'm guessing after the report from PWC the government will plough on regardless with the current location and plans because too much money has already been wasted. How much has been wasted no-one knows due to lack of transparency.
But at least there's foundations there for apartments or commercial buildings if they decide to change track.
It looks like preparing the foundations alone has cost several hundred million. We can only guess as no-one has the figures and no-one from the government is willing to publish them. So much for transparency.
Maybe a freedom of information request would tell us.
Harris either took his eye off the ball or hoped to hoodwink us all.

Well in this case they did literally throw the money into a big hole.

I wouldn't have minded if they had run up a cost of 2 billion if they had built a children's hospital, a maternity hospital and an adult hospital on a new site outside M50.
At least it would be some form of future proofing, as it is it is just a costly half ar**ed short term solution.
What is going to happen when they go to put a maternity hospital there ?

Johnnyhpipe

If, and when, this reaches €2bn the cost per bed will be almost €4.5 million.....per bed......

Last year they acknowledged that the then anticipated cost of €1.8 million per bed was on the high side... Jesus Christ!

wrangler

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

If, and when, this reaches €2bn the cost per bed will be almost €4.5 million.....per bed......

Last year they acknowledged that the then anticipated cost of €1.8 million per bed was on the high side... Jesus Christ!

I was watching Pat Mcdonagh (supermacs) on the NEWS talk about his concerns with the increase in VAT in the hospitality industry, yea right, increase the VAT and give the money to the HSE to throw away.....as you say...Jesus Christ

salmocab

wrangler wrote: »

I was watching Pat Mcdonagh (supermacs) on the NEWS talk about his concerns with the increase in VAT in the hospitality industry, yea right, increase the VAT and give the money to the HSE to throw away.....as you say...Jesus Christ

What has the hospitality industry returning to normal VAT levels got to do with a children’s hospital?
It’s a mess in its own right and doesn’t need people bringing in unrelated things.

wrangler

salmocab wrote: »

What has the hospitality industry returning to normal VAT levels got to do with a children’s hospital?
It’s a mess in its own right and doesn’t need people bringing in unrelated things.

This mess has to do with every taxpayer in the private sector, every euro of tax originates in the private sector, sickens me to see it wasted like this

alloywheel

wrangler wrote: »

I was watching Pat Mcdonagh (supermacs) on the NEWS talk about his concerns with the increase in VAT in the hospitality industry, yea right, increase the VAT and give the money to the HSE to throw away.....as you say...Jesus Christ

I think he was making the point that many people in the private sector work very hard for their money, and wages in the private sector are a lot less than in the public sector. The public sector seems to be mis-managed to an extraordinary degree to waste so much taxpayers money.

Snow Garden

wrangler wrote: »

I was watching Pat Mcdonagh (supermacs) on the NEWS talk about his concerns with the increase in VAT in the hospitality industry, yea right, increase the VAT and give the money to the HSE to throw away.....as you say...Jesus Christ

The HSE throw away huge money on a daily basis. The waste and bureaucracy is staggering. Having worked there I can now see that it's impossible to fix. The senior managers pull the wool over the politicians and the middle management pull the wool over the senior managers. Some non front line people have it very very very cosy. No politician is going to rebuild it from scratch so it will always be dysfunctional. In fact I think it has gotten much worse in the last 10 years.

Wheeliebin30

Snow Garden wrote: »

The HSE throw away huge money on a daily basis. The waste and bureaucracy is staggering. Having worked there I can now see that it's impossible to fix. The senior managers pull the wool over the politicians and the middle management pull the wool over the senior managers. Some non front line people have it very very very cosy. No politician is going to rebuild it from scratch so it will always be dysfunctional. In fact I think it has gotten much worse in the last 10 years.

Exactly why isn’t there outrage at the sheer waste pumped into the HSE each year?

Because the children’s hospital has now turned into a political football for certain parties.

If they really cared they would call out the HSE for waste.

Using a children’s hospital and suggesting halting the construction for political gain is a disgrace especially FG and Stephen Donnelly and his building a house comparison.

Port tunnel budget 400 million.

Delivery cost 850 million.

FF biggest hypocrites ever and are poison to this country.

salmocab

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Exactly why isn’t there outrage at the sheer waste pumped into the HSE each year?

Because the children’s hospital has now turned into a political football for certain parties.

If they really cared they would call out the HSE for waste.

Using a children’s hospital and suggesting halting the construction for political gain is a disgrace especially FG and Stephen Donnelly and his building a house comparison.

Port tunnel budget 400 million.

Delivery cost 850 million.

FF biggest hypocrites ever and are poison to this country.

This is why I replied to wrangler earlier about how the vat rate in hospitality is nothing to do with the children’s hospital.
We end up with this stuff, talking of FF and the port tunnel, HSE spending and I’m sure if we go like g enough someone will say how many homeless could we home for this money. It’s all distraction from the actual issue.
The children’s hospital is a big enough issue that it doesn’t need s load of other stuff dragged in unnecessarily.

Dakotabigone

Harris should get the bullet.

Wanderer78

Dakotabigone wrote:

Harris should get the bullet.

Probably wouldn't solve much, a lot of problems going on in there, this goes far beyond one man

wrangler

salmocab wrote: »

This is why I replied to wrangler earlier about how the vat rate in hospitality is nothing to do with the children’s hospital.
We end up with this stuff, talking of FF and the port tunnel, HSE spending and I’m sure if we go like g enough someone will say how many homeless could we home for this money. It’s all distraction from the actual issue.
The children’s hospital is a big enough issue that it doesn’t need s load of other stuff dragged in unnecessarily.

The overall issue of waste, inefficiency and poor performance of those in the public service will have to be dealt with.
If all revenue comes originally from the private sector, what percentage of the population is employed in the private sector,.... 25 - 30%...., it's a huge load on a small number,
It's not sustainable

Wanderer78

wrangler wrote:

The overall issue of waste, inefficiency and poor performance of those in the public service will have to be dealt with. If all revenue comes originally from the private sector, what percentage of the population is employed in the private sector,.... 25 - 30%...., it's a huge load on a small number, It's not sustainable

What, public sector workers don't pay taxes, the bastards!

wrangler

Wanderer78 wrote: »

What, public sector workers don't pay taxes, the bastards!

They recycle taxes, think about it, they're paid out of our taxes

Doc07

wrangler wrote: »

They recycle taxes, think about it, they're paid out of our taxes

Not as black and white as public take and private pay.
Plenty of private sector salaries being paid from those same ‘recycled’ taxes in contracts for the hospital. In fact many private sector individuals and entire companies earn considerable portion (and sometimesall ) of their income from public purse contracts.

EdgeCase

To be honest I'm getting a bit fed up with politicians who treated the location as a political football, causing the whole project to be moved at enormous cost, are now sounding like they've some kind of expertise on large scale project management.

The whole thing is a big mess because it turned into "too many cooks". There were suddenly all sorts of people with very strong opinions on co-location, urban traffic and facilities ...

To me it just sums up everything that's wrong with the health sector here - loosely organised chaos!

Also it's a big one off project with weird specifications - it's going to get very expensive. That's almost inevitable.

I agree that stopped the project now would be crazy. You'd end up with an even worse mess as it would be either left incomplete for years and would end up costing even more money to finish.

LorelaiG

EdgeCase wrote: »

To be honest I'm getting a bit fed up with politicians who treated the location as a political football, causing the whole project to be moved at enormous cost, are now sounding like they've some kind of expertise on large scale project management.

The whole thing is a big mess because it turned into "too many cooks". There were suddenly all sorts of people with very strong opinions on co-location, urban traffic and facilities ...

To me it just sums up everything that's wrong with the health sector here - loosely organised chaos!

Also it's a big one off project with weird specifications - it's going to get very expensive. That's almost inevitable.

I agree that stopped the project now would be crazy. You'd end up with an even worse mess as it would be either left incomplete for years and would end up costing even more money to finish.

It would be cheaper and faster if they halted construction at James and moved to a greenfield site.

EdgeCase

LorelaiG wrote: »

It would be cheaper and faster if they halted construction at James and moved to a greenfield site.

None of us at this stage know that.

The whole problem with this thing has been endless armchair experts actually having serious influence.

Berserker

LorelaiG wrote: »

It would be cheaper and faster if they halted construction at James and moved to a greenfield site.

And do what with that site exactly?

Wheeliebin30

LorelaiG wrote: »

It would be cheaper and faster if they halted construction at James and moved to a greenfield site.

Oh really?

So you have become an expert and done all the costings out?

Everyone is suddenly an expert on hospitals construction green fields etc.

No wonder things take so long to get done in Ireland.

facehugger99

LorelaiG wrote: »

It would be cheaper and faster if they halted construction at James and moved to a greenfield site.

Could you post up your detailed costing on same so we can establish that you're not spouting nonsense?

tretorn

Simon Harris is now saying we will get the answers on this mess when PWC have done their report, they are independent seemingly. he is a disgrace. He has known about the over runs long before now but he was too busy being Mr Abortion face and gathering up likes Twitter thanks so he forgot he wasnt just Minister for Abortion.

Whats needed now is a Quantity Surveyer, keeping control of costs is a QS job and if QSs were employed during this project they should be asked to appear before a DAil committee to explain where the cost increases came from. PWC are an accountancy firm and they wouldnt have Quantity Surveyor skills so paying them 450,000 is pointless. Harris is sending themin so he can say wait until PWC have done their report, this he hopes will take the heat off him and the fact that this is throwing more money down this black hole is irrelevant.

We have no mental health services for young people and the fourth highest rate of suicide of young people in Europe, think how much help 450,000 euros would be to the third level colleges who are innundated with young people in crisis but no, hand it to PWC to save politicans asses.

AbdulAbhaile

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Snow Garden wrote: »

The HSE throw away huge money on a daily basis. The waste and bureaucracy is staggering. Having worked there I can now see that it's impossible to fix. The senior managers pull the wool over the politicians and the middle management pull the wool over the senior managers. Some non front line people have it very very very cosy. No politician is going to rebuild it from scratch so it will always be dysfunctional. In fact I think it has gotten much worse in the last 10 years.

Exactly why isn’t there outrage at the sheer waste pumped into the HSE each year?

Because the children’s hospital has now turned into a political football for certain parties.

If they really cared they would call out the HSE for waste.

Using a children’s hospital and suggesting halting the construction for political gain is a disgrace especially FG and Stephen Donnelly and his building a house comparison.

Port tunnel budget 400 million.

Delivery cost 850 million.

FF biggest hypocrites ever and are poison to this country.

What has the port tunnel or FF got to do with this issue? Pure whataboutary, look over there, nothing to see here.

This is a Fine Gael managed mess pointing out other parties failings won't change that.

I'm embarrassed and regret that I actually voted for FG in the last two elections now that I have seen the reality.

One of the biggest problems with Irish politics as I see it are the party men, the people who will support their party no matter what they do. The shinners specialise in it and I have to say some of your posts have a lot of the same qualities of blind support of the great leader regardless of the blindingly obvious.

The best thing we can do is just get on with it now.

That's best for FG not for the future generations of children who will have to use the least worst option instead of the best possible option, not to mention the people who will suffer because of other projects that won't go ahead due to the money that is being wasted.

But hey FF done something bad so there.