€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

wrangler

Doc07 wrote: »

Not as black and white as public take and private pay.
Plenty of private sector salaries being paid from those same ‘recycled’ taxes in contracts for the hospital. In fact many private sector individuals and entire companies earn considerable portion (and sometimesall ) of their income from public purse contracts.

I'd have no problem with that unless of course contracts were being awarded suspiciously :rolleyes:
Suppliers would go out of business very quickly if they indulged in waste, poor management and over paying staff

ToBeFrank123

salmocab wrote: »

What has the hospitality industry returning to normal VAT levels got to do with a children’s hospital?
It’s a mess in its own right and doesn’t need people bringing in unrelated things.

Where there is no accountability money will be wasted.

Its as true for the private sector as the public sector.

We could all waste company money in our jobs. But we'd eventually be found accountable and more than likely let go.

No such process seems to exist in the public sector. So billions can be wasted with zero accountability.

salmocab

LorelaiG wrote: »

It would be cheaper and faster if they halted construction at James and moved to a greenfield site.

No it wouldn’t but I do think in the long run it would be better.
We need to stop using broad statements like this because they are inaccurate and make it very easy to ignore.
At this stage it would cost more to move it but I think it should be moved as it’s the better long term plan. A big issue is We don’t like to pay for things for people who don’t yet exist or won’t for 30 years. They are the ones that will have to live with the mistakes of today.

tretorn

If a team of Quantity Surveyers were employed then they should be sued for not doing their job properly.

Anyone doing even the smallest extension risks being taken advantage of financially if they dont oversee costs. The smallest change, even a tiny window size change will add more to a contract price and for every change suggested the Government or its agents, ie Quantity Surveyers should have agreed price change with the builders.

Have the contractors for the hospital made a statement yet.

ToBeFrank123

EdgeCase wrote: »

None of us at this stage know that.

The whole problem with this thing has been endless armchair experts actually having serious influence.

The opposite in fact. The armchair experts ie the ordinary people of Ireland, have had little or no say in the location and cost over-runs.

It was the real "experts" you admire so much who are to blame for that mess. No-one but them.

ToBeFrank123

So the Board knew last June.

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2019/0207/1028072-childrens-hospital/

Then would have been a perfect time to pause the project and see how or where cost savings could be achieved.

Everyone wants a children's hospital. But not at a cost of 3 or 4 times the international norm.

Iandempsey

EdgeCase wrote: »

To be honest I'm getting a bit fed up with politicians who treated the location as a political football, causing the whole project to be moved at enormous cost, are now sounding like they've some kind of expertise on large scale project management.

The whole thing is a big mess because it turned into "too many cooks". There were suddenly all sorts of people with very strong opinions on co-location, urban traffic and facilities ...

To me it just sums up everything that's wrong with the health sector here - loosely organised chaos!

Also it's a big one off project with weird specifications - it's going to get very expensive. That's almost inevitable.

I agree that stopped the project now would be crazy. You'd end up with an even worse mess as it would be either left incomplete for years and would end up costing even more money to finish.

Michael Martin makes me want to puke listening to him on Pat Kenny

He deflects criticism of his tenure as MFH and is slow-playing this hospital overrun as a political football, that's all it it is to him.

Auguste Comte

Iandempsey wrote: »

EdgeCase wrote: »

To be honest I'm getting a bit fed up with politicians who treated the location as a political football, causing the whole project to be moved at enormous cost, are now sounding like they've some kind of expertise on large scale project management.

The whole thing is a big mess because it turned into "too many cooks". There were suddenly all sorts of people with very strong opinions on co-location, urban traffic and facilities ...

To me it just sums up everything that's wrong with the health sector here - loosely organised chaos!

Also it's a big one off project with weird specifications - it's going to get very expensive. That's almost inevitable.

I agree that stopped the project now would be crazy. You'd end up with an even worse mess as it would be either left incomplete for years and would end up costing even more money to finish.

Michael Martin makes me want to puke listening to him on Pat Kenny

He deflects criticism of his tenure as MFH and is slow-playing this hospital overrun as a political football, that's all it it is to him.

Yea, he's nearly as bad as Leo.

Gael23

Heads on plates time now

Iandempsey

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Yea, he's nearly as bad as Leo.

probably is ,i haven't heard him on the matter

tretorn

Cant wait to see the back Of Harris, any reason to get rid of him is fine by me.

tretorn

tretorn wrote: »

Cant wait to see the back Of Harris, any reason to get rid of him is fine by me.

Fair enough. Who do you want as health minister?

Auguste Comte

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

tretorn wrote: »

Cant wait to see the back Of Harris, any reason to get rid of him is fine by me.

Fair enough. Who do you want as health minister?

The Guy who built the Blackrock Clinic and the Hermitage Medical Clinic. Proven competence.

ToBeFrank123

This takes the biscuit.

It said too that a further €191m came from issues arising from a failure to find savings, additional fire sprinklers, and changes to the hospital design.

Almost 200 million euro for these design changes? Before a brick has been laid.
The builders are taking the p*ss.

facehugger99

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

This takes the biscuit.



Almost 200 million euro for these design changes? Before a brick has been laid.
The builders are taking the p*ss.

What would you have priced the design changes at?

ToBeFrank123

facehugger99 wrote: »

What would you have priced the design changes at?

Why was there a need for significant and costly redesigns?

If the job was done properly in the first place there wouldn't have been such a need.

This is where the accountability needs to lie. Repeated mistakes in the design stages. Repeated understatements of the cost.

Redesigns will cost money but when its hundreds of millions something has gone badly wrong.

And the biggest question is why this hospital should cost 3-4 times the international norm for comparable hospitals.

The Bishop Basher

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Almost 200 million euro for these design changes? Before a brick has been laid.
The builders are taking the p*ss.

I blame the incompetent fools who negotiate these deals on behalf of the tax payer.

I bet they don’t throw their own money around as casually as they do ours.

Iandempsey

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Why was there a need for significant and costly redesigns?

If the job was done properly in the first place there wouldn't have been such a need.

This is where the accountability needs to lie. Repeated mistakes in the design stages. Repeated understatements of the cost.

Redesigns will cost money but when its hundreds of millions something has gone badly wrong.

And the biggest question is why this hospital should cost 3-4 times the international norm for comparable hospitals.

It's down to expertise and diligence at the planning and design stage

Alterations and additions to plans are expensive

..there's more waste with the politics and the rest of it here

jimmycrackcorm

One of the key factors for choosing the current was the Co locating for medical reasons. It was a case of paying to move the mountain to mohammed.

If it was built in conolly, the amount of money saved could have paid to entice the world's best paediatric staff to with there.

jmayo

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Exactly why isn’t there outrage at the sheer waste pumped into the HSE each year?

Because the children’s hospital has now turned into a political football for certain parties.

If they really cared they would call out the HSE for waste.

Using a children’s hospital and suggesting halting the construction for political gain is a disgrace especially FG and Stephen Donnelly and his building a house comparison.

Port tunnel budget 400 million.

Delivery cost 850 million.

FF biggest hypocrites ever and are poison to this country.

Ah FFS.
We know how bad they are, but Fine Gael are showing they are not much better, what with this and the Irish water debacle paying out bonuses to well connected fookers just for setting up the company.
A company that never made a profit nor a proper contribution to deal with the long term issues.

PS your forgot the Luas.

Any time anyone says anything about the salaries of HSE the scared cows like the hard working overburdened nurses and jnr doctors are wheeled out.

Some nurse on this morning from Waterford even had the gall to claim this was a Rossa Parks moment.
FFS.
And then they claim they are doing this for the patients.

Yeah they are inconveniencing thousands of patients for their sake, not for more money in their own pockets.
Must tell that to the patients whose long waited elective surgeries were postponed until god knows when.

EdgeCase wrote: »

None of us at this stage know that.

The whole problem with this thing has been endless armchair experts actually having serious influence.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The opposite in fact. The armchair experts ie the ordinary people of Ireland, have had little or no say in the location and cost over-runs.

It was the real "experts" you admire so much who are to blame for that mess. No-one but them.

Exactly 100%.

It has been the fooking so called experts that first wasted all that time and money claiming the Mater site was the best location.

Then when the planners pull the rug from under that, they push the James location.
And it is the so called experts, like the former head of Sisk, who were meant to ensure the project proceeded well.
How come all the experts in Dept of Health, HSE, the hospital steering committees, hospital project team, etc now have to bring in even more EXPERTS (from one of the usual rough feeders) to try figure out how come it has run so far over budget.

Daniel O'Donnell would probably have gotten a lot better value for money.

facehugger99 wrote: »

What would you have priced the design changes at?

Well the proponents of this project are very proud to tell us through their websites about how great this new hospital will be because it is so well designed.

So the question is if it was so well designed in the first place why do design changes run into hundreds of millions.

Maybe if they spent less time building websites telling us about their great vision and more time watching the money we would not be looking at billions gone.

The Design Team

BDP is a major international practice of architects, designers, engineers and urbanists who create outstanding places for people. Benedict Zucci is the lead architect for the new Children’s Hospital on the St. James’s Campus in Dublin

Please also note folks, the costs so far doesn't include one single bed, one single monitor, one single ventilator, one single anaesthetic machine, one single MRI, once single x-ray machine, or one single bedpan for that matter.

ToBeFrank123

The more I read about this project, the more foolish the whole thing sounds.

Leaving aside the location, the lack of future proofing with regards size is laughable.

The new hospital will have 473 beds, just four more than are currently provided in the three Dublin children’s hospitals.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/five-consortiums-shortlisted-to-build-new-national-children-s-hospital-1.2592879

This when Dublin's population alone is predicted to rise by as much as 400,000 by 2030. I hope to goodness we won't see sick children on trolleys in corridors in this new hospital.

Sadly, like a lot of people I didn't pay too much attention to the planning for the National Children's Hospital and like a lot of people put my trust in the "experts". It now turns out a more incompetent bunch you'd struggle to find.

If only we hadn't gone for the "best hospital in the world" and opted instead for one of the construction firms who built a "bog standard" hospital in the UK. It would be built and operational long ago.

The planners who let this through in one of the worst traffic blackspots in Dublin also have questions to answer.

EdgeCase

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The opposite in fact. The armchair experts ie the ordinary people of Ireland, have had little or no say in the location and cost over-runs.

It was the real "experts" you admire so much who are to blame for that mess. No-one but them.

When I say arm chair experts I mean people like various lobby groups who had major public campaigns causing the location of that hospital to shift at least once AFTER it had been designed.

It's been a political football for years and this is what happens when you manage a complex piece of technical infrastructure build out in a chaotic political process that got directly involved in the design and build.

Plumbthedepths

Wonder how long before Harris's head rolls. Article in the Indo shows he knew of a over run before the budget was announced. FF not happy campers. Can't link the article btw but on the Indo site.

ToBeFrank123

jmayo wrote: »

It has been the fooking so called experts that first wasted all that time and money claiming the Mater site was the best location.

Then when the planners pull the rug from under that, they push the James location.

Fully agree. And every mistake (and there were lots) by the experts cost time and money, hundreds of millions. If they had come up with a viable plan at the start, ie 20 years ago, it would now be built and at a quarter the price.

Instead they tried to shoe-horn it into locations in Dublin city that were clearly not suitable or accessible for the majority.

And everytime something goes wrong the experts and politicians like Harris lash out at armchair experts who had no say or input into any of this. I think the average armchair of barstool expert would have done a far better job. But hey lets waste another few million on the experts.

Re location, it always made sense to put it on the greenfield site outside the m50 where Dublin city dwellers can travel against traffic at rush hour rather than with it and also those from the country can avoid Dublin traffic altogether. This is a no brainer.

Putting more and more projects like this in Dublin city centre means more and more people travelling in the one direction at rush hour.

I include our planners in the failed experts brigade by the way.

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Wonder how long before Harris's head rolls. Article in the Indo shows he knew of a over run before the budget was announced. FF not happy campers. Can't link the article btw but on the Indo site.

He'll ride this one out too. No one else want the job, health has a new scandal every week for any minister.

Iandempsey

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Wonder how long before Harris's head rolls. Article in the Indo shows he knew of a over run before the budget was announced. FF not happy campers. Can't link the article btw but on the Indo site.

Michael Martin will prob slow-play it likes he's been doing

Its better to keep him there than change him ,that only gives FG a boost


the hospital is a giant political football

beejee

Ireland is full of pushovers, 5 pound weaklings that get dirt kicked in their faces and say nothing.

They might as well increase the costs to 3 billion. Why not? Whats anyone going to do about it? Open a thread on an internet forum?

It will all go wibbly wobbly, brown envelopes that weigh a ton will swan off into the sunset, and the average eejit here will end up paying for the fall out.

I would lay money that this hospital will not be finished before the next recession, and that's when it will be really interesting. Perhaps another vulture fund will fly in and buy it from us, then charge us to use it. Not a crazy guess.

You get what you deserve.

Wheeliebin30

beejee wrote: »

Ireland is full of pushovers, 5 pound weaklings that get dirt kicked in their faces and say nothing.

They might as well increase the costs to 3 billion. Why not? Whats anyone going to do about it? Open a thread on an internet forum?

It will all go wibbly wobbly, brown envelopes that weigh a ton will swan off into the sunset, and the average eejit here will end up paying for the fall out.

I would lay money that this hospital will not be finished before the next recession, and that's when it will be really interesting. Perhaps another vulture fund will fly in and buy it from us, then charge us to use it. Not a crazy guess.

You get what you deserve.

Water charges were stopped why can’t this?

I’ll tell you why if you go first.

mariaalice

Someone knew or more correctly a few someones knew what the real cost was they managed to keep it under rapes but it had to emerge sometime. It was kept under wraps because it was known the real cost would be unacceptable to the general public.

beejee

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Water charges were stopped why can’t this?

I’ll tell you why if you go first.

The water charges were the exception to the rule. Until anything else is challenged and changed, it will remain the sole exception.

AAAAAAAAA

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/harris-was-informed-that-childrens-hospital-would-cost-an-additional-191m-last-august-official-memo-reveals-37793832.html

Separately, the minister was told Bam, the construction firm building the hospital, had put in a claim for an additional €200m. Officials said they did not accept the claim from Bam.

Another memo sent in September again highlighted the €191m costs overrun. Officials also said the Bam claim for €200m was “deliberately” made to “frustrate” and “delay” the project.

and so proving that which everybody guessed, BAM are trying to extort the taxpayer. In raw speculation, I will bet they are trying to claim the original design spec is "overengineered" and charge it as an extra.

ToBeFrank123

It should be stopped, in this current location.
No sooner built and it will be too small, meaning kids on trolleys probably or waiting months or years to get a referral, bed or operations.
Zero scope for expansion. Any new hospital should have at least scope to expand by 25% with relative ease.
Difficulty of access. It will be a nightmare to access for Dubliners and those from outside Dublin. Thousands of staff and patients' families trying to converge on the one place every day. Traffic misery for all. Hours stuck in traffic. Missed appointments unless you drag a sick child out of bed in the middle of the night to beat traffic.
And a cost 3 or 4 times the price of bigger more complex hospitals the Brits, Europeans and Scandinavians routinely knockup.

But the experts and politicians are determined to plough on no matter how much it costs. Its not their money after all, its ours and they are always generous spending our money.

beejee

mariaalice wrote: »

Someone knew or more correctly a few someones knew what the real cost was they managed to keep it under rapes but it had to emerge sometime. It was kept under wraps because it was known the real cost would be unacceptable to the general public.

It is as transparent a transaction as you can get. You can practically see the number-crunchers and profiteers in the same room, calculating how much they can get away with, probably years ago.

As I said above, if they increase the cost to 3 billion, which isn't impossible, whats going to stop anything? There will already be a bunch of people that have made out like a bandits, and the ONLY reason it is still under any scrutiny is because not all of them have exited yet. There are still others waiting in the wings for their slice.

Its not a mystery. It is never a mistake. This is planned, and it will be executed too.

Wheeliebin30

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

It should be stopped, in this current location.
No sooner built and it will be too small, meaning kids on trolleys probably or waiting months or years to get a referral, bed or operations.
Zero scope for expansion. Any new hospital should have at least scope to expand by 25% with relative ease.
Difficulty of access. It will be a nightmare to access for Dubliners and those from outside Dublin. Thousands of staff and patients' families trying to converge on the one place every day. Traffic misery for all. Hours stuck in traffic. Missed appointments unless you drag a sick child out of bed in the middle of the night to beat traffic.
And a cost 3 or 4 times the price of bigger more complex hospitals the Brits, Europeans and Scandinavians routinely knockup.

But the experts and politicians are determined to plough on no matter how much it costs. Its not their money after all, its ours and they are always generous spending our money.

You seem an expert, why didn’t you apply to be on the expert panel?

Wheeliebin30

To be honest I think we should call an election now.

People are pissed off so let’s see what we get.

AAAAAAAAA

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

To be honest I think we should call an election now.

People are pissed off so let’s see what we get.

What is an election going to do? We need to change the tendering process to prevent and punish construction extortion, the government doesn't matter in this at all

Wheeliebin30

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

What is an election going to do? We need to change the tendering process to prevent and punish construction extortion, the government doesn't matter in this at all

Well everyone is blaming them??

beejee

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

To be honest I think we should call an election now.

People are pissed off so let’s see what we get.

There wont be any election until Brexit is done, and you know that's going to go on and on.

I'd say by January next year there will be so much faeces hitting the fan it will stop turning. THEN we will get an emergency election to go along with all the other emergencies :P

ToBeFrank123

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

You seem an expert, why didn’t you apply to be on the expert panel?

They wouldn't have me because A. I'm competent and B. I'd ask too many of the wrong questions such as how is the taxpayer being protected.

This was an open chequebook project, money no object. The experts could make as many mistakes as they liked and we'd pick up the tab as usual.

Auguste Comte

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

To be honest I think we should call an election now.

People are pissed off so let’s see what we get.

If we got the shinners backed up by people before progress, lord Ross and the Healy Raes they couldn't really get this much worse. Not to mention water charges, rural broadband etc etc etc.

AAAAAAAAA

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Well everyone is blaming them??

The blame is almost entirely on the flawed tendering process and the extortionate contractor. The HSE also holds a portion, and the government of 10 years ago, Fianna Fail, are to blame for politicking the St. James site into usage.

Snow Garden

Wham BAM thank you mam.

HSE are so adept at wasting taxpayers money that they didn't care about the overspend.

We had only 1 chance to fix the HSE and it was when the IMF came in. Pity. We are now doomed to an expensive but crap health service forever.

Brexit saves Harris but I imagine he has already thrown in the towel on reforming the HSE like every other short sighted health minister.

Stephen15

End construction on this hospital it's a waste of money and the amount could be spent on far better things. It is not nessecary we have an ageing population don't need a national childrens hospital instead upgrade what we have currently in Crumlin, Temple Street and Tallaght.

AndrewJRenko

Auguste Comte wrote: »

The Guy who built the Blackrock Clinic and the Hermitage Medical Clinic. Proven competence.

Proven competence at cherrypicking nice profitable patients and leaving the messy patients behind.

wrangler

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Proven competence at cherrypicking nice profitable patients and leaving the messy patients behind.

Have heard the same about HSE staff pawning the messy ones onto the treatment purchase scheme, I wouldn't believe either statement.
Typical bar stool experts

AndrewJRenko

wrangler wrote: »

Have heard the same about HSE staff pawning the messy ones onto the treatment purchase scheme, I wouldn't believe either statement.
Typical bar stool experts

It's the opposite. The treatment purchase scheme covers a set of fixed price procedures. See if you can treatment for bipolar disorder or anorexia or schizophrenia or rheumatoid arthritis under the NTPF and see how you get on.



And that's before you even think about the number of escalated cases from private maternity or cosmetic or IVF cases that get dumped back in to the public system when something goes wrong.

SEPT 23 1989

I say this is jest of course

But would it be cheaper to send the seriously sick children and their family's abroad for treatment than to spend 2 billion now

Dakotabigone

The bag of cash Simon and Leo were getting out of the deal is untold.

ricero

It would be great if this is the end of Harris. Always felt him to be sly, smarmy and snake like but then again most politicians are.

maninasia

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The more I read about this project, the more foolish the whole thing sounds.

Leaving aside the location, the lack of future proofing with regards size is laughable.



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/five-consortiums-shortlisted-to-build-new-national-children-s-hospital-1.2592879

This when Dublin's population alone is predicted to rise by as much as 400,000 by 2030. I hope to goodness we won't see sick children on trolleys in corridors in this new hospital.

Sadly, like a lot of people I didn't pay too much attention to the planning for the National Children's Hospital and like a lot of people put my trust in the "experts". It now turns out a more incompetent bunch you'd struggle to find.

If only we hadn't gone for the "best hospital in the world" and opted instead for one of the construction firms who built a "bog standard" hospital in the UK. It would be built and operational long ago.

The planners who let this through in one of the worst traffic blackspots in Dublin also have questions to answer.

Madness. I also live overseas, usually they'll build these new national projects on Greenfield sites at the edge of major cities as they need good vehicle access for the wider region and room to expand in future.
Also costs are much less in building phase.