€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

wrangler

ricero wrote: »

It would be great if this is the end of Harris. Always felt him to be sly, smarmy and snake like but then again most politicians are.

Firing the minister isn't much good when the smarmy gits that caused the problem are left in situ
Bit late to tell Harris last august when all the harm was irreversibly done

Ubbquittious

ricero wrote: »

It would be great if this is the end of Harris. Always felt him to be sly, smarmy and snake like but then again most politicians are.

Twould be great given the amount of money involved. imagine what else they could have done with that money. Madness that the thing was even set to cost a billion in the first place. Too much money altogether for a building of only a couple of storeys high. Harris's celtic tiger building buddies must be cleaning up out of this one

LorelaiG

Stephen15 wrote: »

End construction on this hospital it's a waste of money and the amount could be spent on far better things. It is not nessecary we have an ageing population don't need a national childrens hospital instead upgrade what we have currently in Crumlin, Temple Street and Tallaght.

We need a hospital where all specialities are covered under the one umbrella. As it is if a child with complex medical needs has a heart condition them they will go to crumlin and if they also have a neurological condition then they will need to go to temple Street.

SEPT 23 1989

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I say this is jest of course

But would it be cheaper to send the seriously sick children and their family's abroad for treatment than to spend 2 billion now

I have been wondering just how much a life is actually worth tbh. How much improvement for how many people would a state of the art single facility providing only the same capacity as we currently have for a growing population actually provide?
Are we going to start spending millions on pioneering treatment because we have a new hospital? I would have assumed the reason we don't spend that money now is because of a lack of number of sick kids rather than not having room.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

I have been wondering just how much a life is actually worth tbh. How much improvement for how many people would a state of the art single facility providing only the same capacity as we currently have for a growing population actually provide?

We don't particularly have a growing population of children.

malinheader

Really bemused with the governments of this country. We really are a corrupt little country with shady goings on a norm. But alot of people will argue were well down the list of corrupt countries. Perhaps we just do it alot slyer.

salmocab

malinheader wrote: »

Really bemused with the governments of this country. We really are a corrupt little country with shady goings on a norm. But alot of people will argue were well down the list of corrupt countries. Perhaps we just do it alot slyer.

I genuinely think people are getting mixed up between corruption and ineptitude.

malinheader

salmocab wrote: »

I genuinely think people are getting mixed up between corruption and ineptitude.

Really. Do you not think yourself some people are making alot of money out of this. As usually happens I might add.

The Bishop Basher

salmocab wrote: »

I genuinely think people are getting mixed up between corruption and ineptitude.

Possibly but this fiasco would appear to include both in equal measure.

facehugger99

malinheader wrote: »

Really. Do you not think yourself some people are making alot of money out of this. As usually happens I might add.

You should report any corruption you're aware of to the relevant authorities.

tigerboon

i seen an article last year where the cost of construction in the 5 most expensive places to build was about €3000 per sq.m. Dublin wasn't in the top 5 at the time but might be now. The hospital is 165,000 sq.m x €3000 give a construction cost of about €495 million. I don't know anything about the cost of the furnishings and equipment but I'd doubt it's €1.5 billion.
Also, the number of beds is about 475, which is about 350 sq.m per bed. That's about the size of 2 large houses per bed. Of course a lot of this is theatres, service rooms etc but how much is foyers, empty spaces etc.

ChikiChiki

malinheader wrote: »

Really bemused with the governments of this country. We really are a corrupt little country with shady goings on a norm. But alot of people will argue were well down the list of corrupt countries. Perhaps we just do it alot slyer.

Great little country to be corrupt in. In fairness people here are so docile and like to do their moaning at the barstool. Any form of legitimate protest and people are labled whingers. Things will never change. Onto the next scandal.

Plumbthedepths

facehugger99 wrote:

You should report any corruption you're aware of to the relevant authorities.

This line never gets old, well played Sir.

malinheader

facehugger99 wrote: »

You should report any corruption you're aware of to the relevant authorities.

Think this has been tried before. Think he was a guard. Poor man nearly lost his mind.!!

alloywheel

malinheader wrote: »

Really bemused with the governments of this country. We really are a corrupt little country with shady goings on a norm. But alot of people will argue were well down the list of corrupt countries. Perhaps we just do it alot slyer.

Well said. The level of corruption and cute hoorism in this country was always very sly, even going back to the days of Beretie Ahern and Charlie Haughey.

malinheader

alloywheel wrote: »

Well said. The level of corruption and cute hoorism in this country was always very sly, even going back to the days of Beretie Ahern and Charlie Haughey.

This project was highly suspicious from the start. Even the location makes you wonder who benefited from putting it where it is. Because it will not be the people who will be needing it.

Dakotabigone

Where are all the yellow vest heroes now, where will they be tomorrow. They won’t be out protesting over this.

Richard Hillman

ricero wrote: »

It would be great if this is the end of Harris. Always felt him to be sly, smarmy and snake like but then again most politicians are.

He is a very creepy individual. Comes across as the type of kid that gets an invitation to a birthday party as a favour by his parents, and turns up wearing a 3 piece suit.

jmayo

Auguste Comte wrote: »

If we got the shinners backed up by people before progress, lord Ross and the Healy Raes they couldn't really get this much worse. Not to mention water charges, rural broadband etc etc etc.

Well I bet if the Healy Raes were involved it might be done a lot better, granted it might be in Kerry with all the roadways built by themselves.

malinheader wrote: »

Really bemused with the governments of this country. We really are a corrupt little country with shady goings on a norm. But alot of people will argue were well down the list of corrupt countries. Perhaps we just do it alot slyer.

I actually don't think we are that outright corrupt, as in I don't think leo and simon are walking away with wads of cash ala charlie and padraig.

But I do think there is an element of incompetence and even worse an element of "couldn't give a shyte".
They won't care what the budget is so long as it doesn't come back to bite them on the ass and make waves for their careers.

Now there is also the major fact that no matter what politicians we have, the civil service and the public sector can pretty much too what the fook they like.

And the reason for this is because they know that politicians don't really want to take them on.
Between a combination of loosing votes and skeletons being revealed, politicians are wary.

This has even been evident in how very few politicians have dared have a go at the Gardai.

As for the whole public sector/civil service and I include the likes of HSE, Regulatory bodies, CB, AGS, etc there is wholesale incompetence and even dodgy behaviour that is just plain tolerated.
Nepotism and connections can ensure that some can just sail on regardless.

And before the usuals have a go, I am not saying every single person in public sector/civil service is incompetent, dodgy, etc, but there are a hell of a lot.
And yes there is incompetence and dodgy behaviour in private sector, but sooner or later the chickens come home to roost and suffer the consequences.

People here are railing against the current politicians, but I wonder how many people would complain if they decided to fire a load of normal HSE workers or civil servants, would the people complaining here be backing the ones out picketing or backing the politicians?


For our long term future I often wonder if the best thing for this country would have been a complete economic collapse happening when the banks went bust.
As it is there was a bit of belt tightening, a few totally incompetent people sailed off with golden parachutes and the cracks were just papered over.

PPARS was a prime example of how our HSE/Dept of Finance had no project controls in place and the whole thing has now been repeated 10 times over less than two decades later.

malinheader

What should of been a brilliant ,long overdue service and much needed state of the art facility for the children and families of this country has been made into a farce. I feel really sorry for people with sick children who would of relied on these services. I wonder is there anymore revelations to come out . Wouldn't surprise me one bit.

iamwhoiam

This country seems to have a big problem wasting public money
Water charges and the millions wasted
Electronic polling another huge money waste
Now the NCH with money flowing down a black hole in the grounds of James hospital
To name but a few

James Brown

salmocab wrote: »

I genuinely think people are getting mixed up between corruption and ineptitude.

Much corruption hides behind ineptitude.
'I wasn't aware we were knocking over 110 million off Siteserv when we awarded him the metering contract', Minister of Finance. 'Everyone looks after their own, there's nothing wrong with it, that's politics' FG politician on IW board appointment of a driver. 'I wasn't aware of the hospital over run' Minister of Health.
That's off the top of my head.

Accountability stops at the top, but in Irish politics the blame begins and ends with some nameless middle management type who likely gets a fat pay off.
'He was sh*te and all, but we must honour the contract...we entered into because we're ejits and/or don't think of the tax payer when going into such things'.

Dakotabigone

Leo backing Harris typical.

Auguste Comte

Dakotabigone wrote: »

Leo backing Harris typical.

It's grand, we are going to get an independent inquiry into the cost over run carried out by PWC.

Wouldn't it be mad if BAM the builders and say the HSE were also clients of PWC. That would make it much easier to carry out the review, no chance of a conflict of interest or anything.

The best little country in the world to rip off the people it would seem.

malinheader

Auguste Comte wrote: »

It's grand, we are going to get an independent inquiry into the cost over run carried out by PWC.

Wouldn't it be mad if BAM the builders and say the HSE were also clients of PWC. That would make it much easier to carry out the review, no chance of a conflict of interest or anything.

The best little country in the world to rip off the people it would seem.

No Matter who does an enquiry into the costs. If I get a price for a job and someone comes back to me and says it going to take nearly half again to do it they would be told where to go. I don't think the costing could be that far out.something stinks about the whole thing. But hey that's nothing new for this country.

malinheader

iamwhoiam wrote: »

This country seems to have a big problem wasting public money
Water charges and the millions wasted
Electronic polling another huge money waste
Now the NCH with money flowing down a black hole in the grounds of James hospital
To name but a few

Or you could say,this country has no problem with wasting public money.

tretorn

I was told everything going into the hospitals from scanners to even plugs is top of the range.

Withmost projects things would be priced in the mid range bearing quality in mind. When money is no object people will always spend more and with no one controlling the costs the figures climbed higher and higher. Who was ordering the stuff for the hospital and who was supplying whatever was ordered, this needs to be examined very carefully so the public understands exactly who is benefitting from this mess.

We dont actually need a state of the Art childrens hospital, the artists drawing of what we will get looks more like some five star hotel, huge ensuite rooms and fancy staircases. Harris will keep saying think of the children as if children in hospital are the only children requiring health services, they arent, there are lots of children waiting for speech and language therapy and Physical Therapy and some even waiting for wheelchairs. There are suicidal children who are on waiting lists to see mental health professionals and meanwhile a state of the art hospital costing billions is being built.

The vast majority of children needing hospital care will probably spend three nights max there and they can share a four bedded room with an ensuite. They do not need large single ensuite rooms and this is pushing the cost up.

There are elderly people going into Public Nursing and private nursing homes and spending years in four and six bedded rooms, they dont have en suite facilities and some have one tiny locker for their belongs. These "homes" are the elderly persons long term homes until they die unlike the children who may in their entite lives spend three nights in the childrens hospital maybe having their appendix removed.

In the case of oncology child patients or children requiring lengthy stay hospital treatment then of course some rooms should be single and well equipped but for a country of maybe six million people we dont need a world class facility and certainly not one like the one presently being proposed.

AndrewJRenko

tretorn wrote: »

I was told everything going into the hospitals from scanners to even plugs is top of the range.

Do you believe everything that you're told?



You really should do some reading up on public procurement.

tretorn

Yes, I do believe it actually.

It will all come out eventually.

malinheader

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you believe everything that you're told?



You really should do some reading up on public procurement.

Principles of public procurement:

Transparency
Integrity
Economy
Competition
Accountability.

Do you really think any of these phrases could be used regarding this Matter.

iamwhoiam

tretorn wrote: »

I was told everything going into the hospitals from scanners to even plugs is top of the range.

Withmost projects things would be priced in the mid range bearing quality in mind. When money is no object people will always spend more and with no one controlling the costs the figures climbed higher and higher. Who was ordering the stuff for the hospital and who was supplying whatever was ordered, this needs to be examined very carefully so the public understands exactly who is benefitting from this mess.

We dont actually need a state of the Art childrens hospital, the artists drawing of what we will get looks more like some five star hotel, huge ensuite rooms and fancy staircases. Harris will keep saying think of the children as if children in hospital are the only children requiring health services, they arent, there are lots of children waiting for speech and language therapy and Physical Therapy and some even waiting for wheelchairs. There are suicidal children who are on waiting lists to see mental health professionals and meanwhile a state of the art hospital costing billions is being built.

The vast majority of children needing hospital care will probably spend three nights max there and they can share a four bedded room with an ensuite. They do not need large single ensuite rooms and this is pushing the cost up.

There are elderly people going into Public Nursing and private nursing homes and spending years in four and six bedded rooms, they dont have en suite facilities and some have one tiny locker for their belongs. These "homes" are the elderly persons long term homes until they die unlike the children who may in their entite lives spend three nights in the childrens hospital maybe having their appendix removed.

In the case of oncology child patients or children requiring lengthy stay hospital treatment then of course some rooms should be single and well equipped but for a country of maybe six million people we dont need a world class facility and certainly not one like the one presently being proposed.

Yes we do need a word class facility
You obviously have no idea what goes on in a paediatric hospital . A three day appendix operation is the very least of what goes on
Major cardiac sugery on new borns and cardiac care and surgery on sick children
Reconstructive surgery on severe congenital defects
Long term CF patients with multiple admissions
Major burns and plastic surgery
Long term admissions for very ill children with multiple needs and multiple disabilities
Orthopaedic. reconstruction and spinal fusion surgery
Cranial surgery and oral and cleft palate surgery
High depency for babies with meningococcal sepsis and babies with necrotic bowels needing highly skilled care
To name but a few of many sick children and every single one of them deserves a world class paediatric hospital

tretorn

tretorn wrote: »

I was told everything going into the hospitals from scanners to even plugs is top of the range.

I'm sure we could use budget scanners if you want but we'll probably be back here in a few years time condemning the government for buying cheap scanners that either
(a) miss fine details in the brain scans etc and people die or
(b) have no engineer support to fix them and they are all broken down.

Wheeliebin30

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Yes we do need a word class facility
You obviously have no idea what goes on in a paediatric hospital . A three day appendix operation is the very least of what goes on
Major cardiac sugery on new borns and cardiac care and surgery on sick children
Reconstructive surgery on severe congenital defects
Long term CF patients with multiple admissions
Major burns and plastic surgery
Long term admissions for very ill children with multiple needs and multiple disabilities
Orthopaedic. reconstruction and spinal fusion surgery
Cranial surgery and oral and cleft palate surgery
High depency for babies with meningococcal sepsis and babies with necrotic bowels needing highly skilled care
To name but a few of many sick children and every single one of them deserves a world class paediatric hospital

This is now a political football.

And people are lapping it up quoting the figure could hit 2 billion well just because they said so and it suits their agenda.

No wonder things are so slow to get done in this country.

This hospital has been talked about since 1962.

salmocab

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

This is now a political football.

And people are lapping it up quoting the figure could hit 2 billion well just because they said so and it suits their agenda.

No wonder things are so slow to get done in this country.

This hospital has been talked about since 1962.

Your right it is a political football now but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t valid concerns on how it has been ran and handled.
Every cent spent on this is a cent not spent on something else that we need, whether that’s money for football pitches or a new ward in some regional hospital.

Snow Garden

I know Harris is trying to deflect by asking PWC to investigate the overspend.

Is it true that PWC also have the HSE and BAM as customers?

Snow Garden

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Yes we do need a word class facility
You obviously have no idea what goes on in a paediatric hospital . A three day appendix operation is the very least of what goes on
Major cardiac sugery on new borns and cardiac care and surgery on sick children
Reconstructive surgery on severe congenital defects
Long term CF patients with multiple admissions
Major burns and plastic surgery
Long term admissions for very ill children with multiple needs and multiple disabilities
Orthopaedic. reconstruction and spinal fusion surgery
Cranial surgery and oral and cleft palate surgery
High depency for babies with meningococcal sepsis and babies with necrotic bowels needing highly skilled care
To name but a few of many sick children and every single one of them deserves a world class paediatric hospital

Yes agreed but you are missing the point - how much top-of-the-range medical equipment and expert staff could have been funded for the money that will go to BAM?

Plumbthedepths

salmocab wrote:

Your right it is a political football now but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t valid concerns on how it has been ran and handled. Every cent spent on this is a cent not spent on something else that we need, whether that’s money for football pitches or a new ward in some regional hospital.

Second Cathlab in Waterford facing the chop as a result of the overspend. FG's claim of being the party of fiscal prudence in tatters.

Auguste Comte

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Yes we do need a word class facility
You obviously have no idea what goes on in a paediatric hospital . A three day appendix operation is the very least of what goes on
Major cardiac sugery on new borns and cardiac care and surgery on sick children
Reconstructive surgery on severe congenital defects
Long term CF patients with multiple admissions
Major burns and plastic surgery
Long term admissions for very ill children with multiple needs and multiple disabilities
Orthopaedic. reconstruction and spinal fusion surgery
Cranial surgery and oral and cleft palate surgery
High depency for babies with meningococcal sepsis and babies with necrotic bowels needing highly skilled care
To name but a few of many sick children and every single one of them deserves a world class paediatric hospital

This is now a political football.

And people are lapping it up quoting the figure could hit 2 billion well just because they said so and it suits their agenda.

No wonder things are so slow to get done in this country.

This hospital has been talked about since 1962.

How much will it cost? Does it represent good value for the tax payer? , are we getting the best hospital for the money we are investing?

malinheader

Snow Garden wrote: »

I know Harris is trying to deflect by asking PWC to investigate the overspend.

Is it true that PWC also have the HSE and BAM as customers?

I also heard this being mentioned on local radio yesterday. They didn't say to much because they were not sure and didn't want say to much until it was confirmed as true.

iamwhoiam

Snow Garden wrote: »

Yes agreed but you are missing the point - how much top-of-the-range medical equipment and expert staff could have been funded for the money that will go to BAM?

I am not missing the point at all . I disagree with the location and the overspending but my point was to the posters statement that we didn't need a world class hospital . We absolutely do need it , we need it in budget and no wasted billions or overspending to line the pockets of rich men
Our children deserve no less than a world class hospital built by experts , overseen by experts and accountability for waste and lining pockets

Wheeliebin30

Auguste Comte wrote: »

How much will it cost? Does it represent good value for the tax payer? , are we getting the best hospital for the money we are investing?

You tell me?

Auguste Comte

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

You tell me?

Seeing as you seem sure that it won't be €2 billion I thought that you might know how much it will cost.

It seems a bit unfair to ask me what the cost will end up being when even Leo Vradkar doesn't appear to know.

Mr Varadkar said "it is possible" the spending crisis may get even worse as he confirmed officials from the group overseeing the project will be made available for any public accounts committee or health committee grillings

.

On the basis that the cost has jumped by over €400 million in the last few months €3 billion wouldn't seem out of the question.

On a cost per bed bases I do not believe that the tax payers are getting value for their money nor are we leaving the future generations of children the best facility for the money that is being spent.

In fairness I don't think we can only hold Fine Gael responsible, if it wasn't for Fianna Fáil playing footsie with them something might have been done before now to rectify the situation, altho at this stage when you look at FG's behaviour recently, eg Denis Naughten and the rural broadband scheme etc it would seem that FG have gone more FF than FF themselves.

AndrewJRenko

tretorn wrote: »

Yes, I do believe it actually.

It will all come out eventually.

Did you look for any evidence? Or any explanation beyond the obvious grudge?

jmayo

tretorn wrote: »

I was told everything going into the hospitals from scanners to even plugs is top of the range.

What type of scanners are you on about?
I know for a fact that no purchasers never mind tenders have been sent out for certain high end medical equipment.

tretorn wrote: »

We dont actually need a state of the Art childrens hospital, the artists drawing of what we will get looks more like some five star hotel, huge ensuite rooms and fancy staircases. Harris will keep saying think of the children as if children in hospital are the only children requiring health services, they arent, there are lots of children waiting for speech and language therapy and Physical Therapy and some even waiting for wheelchairs. There are suicidal children who are on waiting lists to see mental health professionals and meanwhile a state of the art hospital costing billions is being built.

Actually we do need a high end modern childrens hospital and modern fit for purpose maternity hospitals for Dublin area.
But you do have a point that by pumping everything into some vanity project there will be less to go around for other needy causes.

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I'm sure we could use budget scanners if you want but we'll probably be back here in a few years time condemning the government for buying cheap scanners that either
(a) miss fine details in the brain scans etc and people die or
(b) have no engineer support to fix them and they are all broken down.

Except if you spend a fortune on something liks the build itself, or fancy foyers, etc then there will be less for scanners and even if the best are bought there may not be the budget available in future to provide the adequate preventative maintenance on them.

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

This is now a political football.

And people are lapping it up quoting the figure could hit 2 billion well just because they said so and it suits their agenda.

No wonder things are so slow to get done in this country.

This hospital has been talked about since 1962.

You keep harping on about this, that it is a political football and a 2 billion figure is just being bandied about for people to lap it up.

Yet you can't discount 2 billion when it is fully kitted out.
Hell the government, dept of Health nor HSE can give us a final figure.

I bet you were the type saying at one stage that over 1 billion was ridiculous and now look where we are.

Also why shouldn't there be political questions about the wastage of tax payer funds ?

Or have you being working for the public purse for so long now that cost isn't an issue and shure the taxpayer is a bottomless pit to be sucked dry.

Th problem in this country is that enough questions aren't asked and some shyte about systemic failures doesn't wash anymore.

ToBeFrank123

Anyone who thinks this will be built and kitted out for less than 2 billion is deluded.

In Ireland everything seems to cost twice as much as elsewhere.

Another example

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2019/0205/1027635-dublin-rapid-build/

klaaaz

Because of FG gross mismanagement of this project, the cutbacks in 8 other departments has begun. They're looking for at least €100m, probably will be more as the projected cost of the hospital is likely to be above €2bn
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2019/0211/1028942-childrens-hospital/.

James Brown

Transport/infrastructure looks like taking a hit over it. Who were these mystery hospital rubber stamp merchants? Nobody knows, it's terrible farcical. Not to worry they'll raise the dole by a fiver and it'll be forgotten about in the throws of rage about dem dat want somethin' for nuthin'.

dave699

Shocking the way this has developed.joke from start to finish

Yurt2

This government is a busted flush; the Sword of Damocles that is Brexit is the only thing keeping the show on the road. It's a government powered by tweets and the opinion poll bounce from the two feel-good referenda. The only ministers with a modicum of competency are Bruton and to a lesser extent Coveney. Varadkar is all veneer, doesn't have a direction he wants to take the country - happy to pick up the cheque, call himself Taoiseach and hi-five other hip leaders like Trudeau at Davos.

We need serious people stepping up to the plate in all the major political parties the next election, and people need to give all of them hell at the doorstep and on the hustings.

tretorn

If I was the under bidder for that project I would be finding someone in the EU to complain about the tendering. I would also be examining the prospects of successfully suing the Government for not costing the tendering properly and giving each tenderer a fair chance at winning the contract. Has construction work started does anyone know.

its quite obvious the tender price was never realistic so the whole job should be put out to tender again and this time employ reputable Quantity Surveyers so ever y single item required is costed from the beginning. If necessary we employ the officials who successfully designed childrens hospitals in the UK and managed to do it within reasonable costs. Everyone involved in the childrens hospital in St James needs to be barred from every being involved in Public Procurement Projects of this type again.

This whole project with its vast winding staircases needs to be abandoned, if you are sick enough to need a hospital then its a reliable lift you need not a fabulous decorative staircase. Parents arriving with children quite often have child or other sibling in a buggy, hence will use lifts. The individual bedrooms are too big too, you could split them in two and save millions in the building.

I see now the hSE refused to allow McDonalds to name the family home McDonalds house. The officials never costed this accomodation because they assumed the charity would fund it but if the charity cant name it what they want why should they fund it. The charity have now said they will only part fund it no now the HSE now has to find another few million to build this accomodation which is probably four star too.