€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

malinheader

After listening to rte this morning interviewing Pascal Donahue I think it cant be ruled out that there will probably legal action taken by unsuccessful tenders. Also he could not say if the final cost be considered now won't go up again. Between maybe compensation and final costs the price quoted at the start is going to rise substantially. A great phrase was it will be something to learn from again. Where have I heard that before.

Wheeliebin30

malinheader wrote: »

After listening to rte this morning interviewing Pascal Donahue I think it cant be ruled out that there will probably legal action taken by unsuccessful tenders. Also he could not say if the final cost be considered now won't go up again. Between maybe compensation and final costs the price quoted at the start is going to rise substantially. A great phrase was it will be something to learn from again. Where have I heard that before.

Who was in charge of the tender process and costing?

As quoted last night on the tonight show, these peoole are anonymous yet need to be held accountable.

Wanderer78

malinheader wrote:

After listening to rte this morning interviewing Pascal Donahue I think it cant be ruled out that there will probably legal action taken by unsuccessful tenders. Also he could not say if the final cost be considered now won't go up again. Between maybe compensation and final costs the price quoted at the start is going to rise substantially. A great phrase was it will be something to learn from again. Where have I heard that before.

So what have we learned so far? If you're a tender, put in the cheapest quote, and you might get the job. Ignore budget limits, as they're just something to laugh about, as nothing will be done about overspends, and that there's an endless supply of money for such projects. Am I missing anything?

Auguste Comte

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

malinheader wrote: »

After listening to rte this morning interviewing Pascal Donahue I think it cant be ruled out that there will probably legal action taken by unsuccessful tenders. Also he could not say if the final cost be considered now won't go up again. Between maybe compensation and final costs the price quoted at the start is going to rise substantially. A great phrase was it will be something to learn from again. Where have I heard that before.

Who was in charge of the tender process and costing?

As quoted last night on the tonight show, these peoole are anonymous yet need to be held accountable.

Where should the buck stop? And what does this accountability look like?

Wheeliebin30

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Where should the buck stop? And what does this accountability look like?

Agree but also find more accountable not just one person or we will continue with people messing up and walking away.

WoollyRedHat

Why did it take over two months for Harris to communicate budget overspend on such a massive scale to Varadkar and Donohoe?
We're not talking about a couple of hundred euro here.

Also FG have been in power for quite some time now, they put themselves forward on the platform they were going to clean up politics. They have always maintained the image of being financially prudent. They have had plenty of time to carry out a review and overhaul of the tendering process. It would have been a financially prudent move to have begun such an undertaking before such a massive capital project went out to tender and could of saved us all this trouble.

FG know that projects in this country had a habit of being poorly managed and public monies wasted. They have been in power before and are in power now, legislators of the state have the power to reform processes when they become unfit for purpose.

Leo Varadkar was and is aware that BAM have a reputation. Why was a review /risk assessment not enlisted before contracts were signed for a project this size. Do Varadkar as Taoiseach and Harris as MOH not have the power to intervene if they have such deep reservations? When will people in positions of power such as these develop hubris and actually act, making the hard decisions, if not always popular, rather than pontificating and issuing meaningless apologies down the road

This complete mismanagement on a scale that has not been seen befir will now effect and eat jnto capital spend projects in other departments, namely that of infrastructure, at a time when this country is crying out for investment in this area,buckling, 10 steps back.. Do not pass go.

FF meanwhile prove for umpteenth time they are neither fit for opposition or government. They are not fit for public office in fact and that goes for parties across the board, from the councils up.

May I remind people that the local and Euro elections are this May. Vote with your feet.. If continue to vote for the likes of FF and FG you reinforce that their governan is an acceptable standard, allow them to continue to reinforce the status quo and the carry on politics that is endemic in this country. That FF are power brokers only 10 years from brining the country to the brink, when they should of been annihilated, is proof of this. If they keep voting for us, they can't be that mad, keep things moving, a few tweaks here and there but no need to make radical change.

A reminder that the politicians you elect manage the public sector and have the ability to change the likes of the tendering process if the political will exists. Change has to start at the top. Treacle down accountability.

A final thought, can we submit a FOI on Pwc client base? A huge problem is that because of the size of the country, relationships at professional level are far too incestuous and entangled together. The consultancy firms dine too close to the main table in such matters....

facehugger99

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Who was in charge of the tender process and costing?

You'll find that whomever prepared the formal documents would have also prepared a Risk Register listing all the assumptions that were made and the potential risks associated with same.

The funding authority has the ultimate responsibility to either proceed with the background risks or undertake further works to eliminate or reduce these risks.

For example, uncharted services is a potentially expensive risk that the Client will carry on a scheme like this. That risk can be reduced by carrying out an extensive investigation of all the buried services around the site. Then use that information to revise the design. That process is likely to be expensive and time-consuming.

Of course with the benefit of hindsight it would have been less expensive than the current fiasco - but sometimes these decision comes down to political expediency too - the need to press ahead with the project rather than spend another 9 months doing preliminary investigations.

Either way, it's not as simple as saying whoever prepared the tender documents were at fault - perhaps they made mistakes, or perhaps they prepared the most robust set of documents possible based on the information available.

It's highly likely that there will be a multitude of errors and poor decisions - there will not be a convenient smoking gun and a guy holding it with a guilty sign above his head - I appreciate that won't suit the populist narrative which likes things in black and white.

facehugger99

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Leo Varadkar was and is aware that BAM have a reputation. Why was a review /risk assessment not enlisted before contracts were signed for a project this size. Do Varadkar as Taoiseach and Harris as MOH not have the power to intervene if they have such deep reservations? When will people in positions of power such as these develop hubris and actually act, making the hard decisions, if not always popular, rather than pontificating and issuing meaningless apologies down the road
.

BAM do indeed have a reputation as a claims-conscious Contractor but there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of EU procurement law if you think someone in Government can interfere in a tender process because of this. Or if you think BAM's tender can be discarded because of claims on previous schemes. The law simply does not allow this - all the tenders are supposed to be assessed on the same basis.

You can't eliminate a Contractor from consideration (unless you have grounds i.e. clear evidence that will stand up in Court) just because you suspect they have underbid.

malinheader

Local fg minister on local radio station here in Donegal this morning trying to explain why the start to work on a couple of community hospitals will not be going ahead for a couple of months due to happenings of the nch. Nobody here believes these projects will start in a couple of months time even the community hospital committees. People here on donegal seriously pissed off and rightly so. Especially when asked about the overspend he stated its nothing new it's happened before. Ffs.

Snow Garden

I expect the opposition are licking their lips at the prospects of tackling FG during the next General Election. I am expecting a GE around October. FG have a lot of mishaps to defend especially around Health, Housing and the Gardaí. Given all the risk around the economy, it will be a tough election for them.

Plumbthedepths

3 million knocked off the flood defence budget due to the overspend. Lots of government TDs going to get it in the neck for all the projects that are going to be suspended or downgraded.

Wheeliebin30

Snow Garden wrote: »

I expect the opposition are licking their lips at the prospects of tackling FG during the next General Election. I am expecting a GE around October. FG have a lot of mishaps to defend especially around Health, Housing and the Gardaí. Given all the risk around the economy, it will be a tough election for them.

Think it will be FF and SF.

That’s the beauty of democaracy.

Wanderer78

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Think it will be FF and SF.

That’s the beauty of democaracy.

you could be right, but i cant see fg going away too easily, they ll probably do reasonably well in the ge

Wheeliebin30

Wanderer78 wrote: »

you could be right, but i cant see fg going away too easily, they ll probably do reasonably well in the ge

Nah it’s just constant hammer and thong in the media and social media etc.

People won’t rest until they are gone and the next party step in for the same.

And around we go.

Wanderer78

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Nah it’s just constant hammer and thong in the media and social media etc.

People won’t rest until they are gone and the next party step in for the same.

And around we go.

oh dont underestimate them, these big parties dont disappear so easily

akelly02

Who is the spoofer that does be on newstalk in the morning talking about this ****e ?

Auguste Comte

Snow Garden wrote: »

I expect the opposition are licking their lips at the prospects of tackling FG during the next General Election. I am expecting a GE around October. FG have a lot of mishaps to defend especially around Health, Housing and the Gardaí. Given all the risk around the economy, it will be a tough election for them.

This is exactly why ff are leaving fg in power for the moment, nothing to do with brexit. As the old saying goes,

"Never Interfere With an Enemy While He’s in the Process of Destroying Himself"

facehugger99

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Think it will be FF and SF.

That’s the beauty of democaracy.

God help us all - the overrun in the Children's Hospital will be looked on fondly after a couple of giveaway budgets from the populists.

Wheeliebin30

facehugger99 wrote: »

God help us all - the overrun in the Children's Hospital will be looked on fondly after a couple of giveaway budgets from the populists.

Yep but it’s like the media and the country won’t rest until FG are gone.

Bring it on and let’s see things get better if SF and FF are so convinced they can do better.

malinheader

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Yep but it’s like the media and the country won’t rest until FG are gone.

Bring it on and let’s see things get better if SF and FF are so convinced they can do better.

Every time I hear election mentioned I always think of pat rabbite. He was asked about something that his party had promised before the election that didn't happen. His reply went something like, Ah sure you know somethings that are promised before an election are never really going to happen. One time a minister once answered a question honestly.

Doctor Jimbob

akelly02 wrote: »

Who is the spoofer that does be on newstalk in the morning talking about this ****e ?

Pat Kenny?

Snow Garden

Auguste Comte wrote: »

This is exactly why ff are leaving fg in power for the moment, nothing to do with brexit. As the old saying goes,

"Never Interfere With an Enemy While He’s in the Process of Destroying Himself"

Not sure. I suspect Leo might have triggered one when the polls were looking good not so long ago. Brexit has kept them all busy. But yeah, the longer this government goes on, the more FF and amateur they look.
I have voted FG #1 many many times and while Leo has improved things (Enda had zero vision), they missed a lot of opportunities since 2011. I don't know who to vote anymore though.

akelly02

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Pat Kenny?

some gay politician it sounds like

WoollyRedHat

facehugger99 wrote: »

BAM do indeed have a reputation as a claims-conscious Contractor but there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of EU procurement law if you think someone in Government can interfere in a tender process because of this. Or if you think BAM's tender can be discarded because of claims on previous schemes. The law simply does not allow this - all the tenders are supposed to be assessed on the same basis.

You can't eliminate a Contractor from consideration (unless you have grounds i.e. clear evidence that will stand up in Court) just because you suspect they have underbid.

What about a fixed price clause in such instances. This kind of carry on wouldn't happen in Germany.

WoollyRedHat

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

What about a fixed price clause in such instances. This kind of carry on wouldn't happen in Germany.

I dunno, they've had great craic with Berlins new airport. :pac:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport

facehugger99

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

What about a fixed price clause in such instances. This kind of carry on wouldn't happen in Germany.

You can't get a Contractor to give you a fixed price on an element of Works they can't reasonably foresee - at least not with the forms of tenders we operate under in Ireland.

screamer

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

What about a fixed price clause in such instances. This kind of carry on wouldn't happen in Germany.

No in Germany and other countries the forms of contract are clearer, and fairer. The forms of contract are what the IRISH government themselves introduced about 10 years ago.
The construction industry is a low profit one, high turnover yes, but low profit, and high risk and getting paid is very difficult. I feel zero sympathy for the overrun, the constitution organizations are now using the governments own contract to get their money. It’s a horrible form of contract and very adversarial. If you think government contracts are good, I just point you to the carillon fiasco and the suppliers they screwed over taking possession of schools that weren’t even paid out for. Yes, it’s a tough industry, you should try it sometimes. And if the government want to know why this has overrun, look in the mirror with their horrible form of contract, it’s their own fault. Maybe if their contract was less adversarial and more fair, the building organizations wouldn’t have to counter with claims......

I honestly thought, yea let some new younger more progressive lads have a crack at things, vis a vis, Housing, health and good governance!!

Health : all harris has to claw onto is a same sex referendum! he's an ashen faced puppet who spends more time apologising than anything.
Housing : Eoghan Murphy is as bad and spends more time inventing platitudes and making excuses for the lifetime dole merchants but god forbid they set up residence in his neighbourhood!!

Governance : Varadkar, "we lead with our heart sometimes"
that's why he's fighting women in court over the smear text having
said it would never come to that. He's been caught out a few times showing
great promise as a spoofer of the year recipient even trying to set up fake facebook profiles promoting thanks for their good work...#keeptherecovery going eh Leo... Poor boy will be gutted when Trudeau takes him off his Xmas card list!


This is not an endorsement of FF of FG either. If you have the legs taken from under you Leo and Co, you don't thank the driver cos he could have actually killed you!! SF & FF is in charge. It's still a shyte state of affairs and resignations should have been the soup de jour weeks ago!

Amirani

rusty cole wrote: »

Housing : Eoghan Murphy is as bad and spends more time inventing platitudes and making excuses for the lifetime dole merchants but god forbid they set up residence in his neighbourhood!!

Sorta funny that a common criticism of Murphy tends to be the opposite of what you've said.

Can anyone think of any consistently popular minister while they were in one of the tough ministries?

facehugger99

Amirani wrote: »

Can anyone think of any consistently popular minister while they were in one of the tough ministries?

Of course not. The Irish electorate are like screaming toddlers.

"We all partied"

James Brown

I've had enough long ago. All FF/FG have to say for themselves is the others would be worse and crying about how difficult it is as they make problems they created worse.
Who else? Anybody, Me, you, everybody *Blues Brothers*.
Why? Because the worst that could happen isn't any worse than what we've seen under the familiar hands of FF or stable government of FG. Disasters, cons and high level ineptitude.
Like we hoped at the last crash lessons would be learned, 'a new way of doing business', new politics. We believed FG. We thought, right, we've hit lower than ever. Now we've mountains of debt but could be a clean slate to rebuild the mechanics of how government worked, the HSE,he civil service etc.
No, more of the same ol' same 'ol. Told we partied. A new quango. A sweet deal for Denis. Reilly allocating clinics, 'looking after our own', man with two pints and other porkies. Then Leo the instagram wonder and his band of merry spivs.

Grab a few people randomly off a few bus stops, form a committee and let them make the decisions with a team of government administrators carrying out the day to day operations.

ToBeFrank123

I reckon this scandal and it is a scandal will sink FG at the next election just as Water Charges and a couple other things sunk Labour at the last one.

Who fills the space is the question.

I'd have no problem with Sinn Fein if they distanced themselves from Hard Left governments and policies around the world. They seem to treat the Venezuelan president as some kind of hero to be emulated.

Maybe Fianna Fail would be the least worst option. Michael Martin's time might have come.

There is no way Varadkar would survive a collapse in FG support after the next election. How he handles this hospital situation may determine his future as leader of FG. And the longer the situation goes on the better for FF and Sinn Fein.

ChikiChiki

malinheader wrote: »

Have often said this myself. The person in charge for health should come from a background in health services and so hopefully know what's needed education, housing should be the same. Even still they get the job on the basis if they cant be seen to be able to handle the job there gone. As is the way in any employment

Disagree, it should be the ministers responsibility to run the department akin to that of an organisation. I.E, have a suitable organisational structure and the correct subordinates and governance practices in place.

The Minister for Health needs to be a strong leader and manager and not necessarily require a background in health.

I think what is missing is a lot of the basics of how a department should be run and people are probably promoted on the number of years spent in the civil service and not achievements and experience in certain areas. I would imagine a lot of the senior civil servants in the Dept of Health are "entitled" folk who wield a lo of power. This is not good.

malinheader

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Disagree, it should be the ministers responsibility to run the department akin to that of an organisation. I.E, have a suitable organisational structure and the correct subordinates and governance in place.

The Minister for Health needs to be a strong leader and manager and not necessarily require a background in health.

I think what is missing is a lot of the basics of how a department should be run and people are probably promoted on the number of years spent in the civil service and not achievements and experience in certain areas. I would imagine a lot of the senior civil servants in the Dept of Health are "entitled" folk who wield a lo of power. This is not good.

Irelands healthcare budget is same amount of NASA,s budget in the US.
For a population the size of Greater Manchester was said.
Anyone else find this unbelievable.
Does anyone know what is going on in the health service.?

Wheeliebin30

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I reckon this scandal and it is a scandal will sink FG at the next election just as Water Charges and a couple other things sunk Labour at the last one.

Who fills the space is the question.

I'd have no problem with Sinn Fein if they distanced themselves from Hard Left governments and policies around the world. They seem to treat the Venezuelan president as some kind of hero to be emulated.

Maybe Fianna Fail would be the least worst option. Michael Martin's time might have come.

There is no way Varadkar would survive a collapse in FG support after the next election. How he handles this hospital situation may determine his future as leader of FG. And the longer the situation goes on the better for FF and Sinn Fein.

FF and SF!!!

Bring it on.

Idbatterim

Unless a new party forms. It will just be swapping **** with ****. Of course I won’t be voting fg again anyway. Having varadkar our will be enough for me...

markodaly

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Grab a few people randomly off a few bus stops, form a committee and let them make the decisions with a team of government administrators carrying out the day to day operations.

Why should we adopt Tump type populism in Ireland?

The fact that you think a few random people can run a state, shows us you have no idea on the complexity of what is involved in running a country.

Idbatterim

markodaly wrote: »

Why should we adopt Tump type populism in Ireland?

The fact that you think a few random people can run a state, shows us you have no idea on the complexity of what is involved in running a country.

I think it’s worth a try. We know what we get with overpaid waffling morons ...

Wheeliebin30

Im telling you after only 9 years of saddling the country with 200 billion debt FF will be back in charge because of a 600 million overrun of the hospital.

Embrace the madness.

Cushie Butterfield

RTE News reporting that BAM has offered to opt out of children’s hospital build:

The contractor responsible for the national children's hospital has said it will opt out from the project if the board responsible for it wish to re-tender the contract.

Theo Cullinane, the chief executive of BAM, said if the board wish to "procure the work in some other way" they will "co-operate with them to facilitate this option".

However, BAM said the company "will continue its commitment to the new Children's Hospital and the confidence of all parties involved is a vital requirement for the company."

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2019/0215/1030824-childrens-hospital/

Amirani

malinheader wrote: »

Irelands healthcare budget is same amount of NASA,s budget in the US.
For a population the size of Greater Manchester was said.
Anyone else find this unbelievable.
Does anyone know what is going on in the health service.?

This Greater Manchester thing comes up commonly enough. It's the most ignorant and ill-informed comparison going.

A little bit of Googling will tell you that it's factually inaccurate in population terms. A little bit of critical thinking will tell you why it's silly to compare provision of public services to a densely populated metro area and to a sparsely populated landmass that is mostly rural.

Snow Garden

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Im telling you after only 9 years of saddling the country with 200 billion debt FF will be back in charge because of a 600 million overrun of the hospital.

Embrace the madness.

I think FG had the opportunity to kill FF off and reform this country for the better and absolutely blew it.

As soon as they won the 2011 election (FG 76, Labour 37), they should have taken stock of all that is wrong with our public service and welfare society and did all the heavy lifting reform under a Fix-what-FF-did ticket for 3-5 years.

What happened? They did nothing.

Why? Enda Kenny has no vision or courage.

So the Ireland we have today still has all the same problems (and some more) with the public service, health service and welfare budget that we did in 2011. Now FG look just like FF in their ineptitude. The rest look clueless too.

ChikiChiki

Snow Garden wrote: »

I think FG had the opportunity to kill FF off and reform this country for the better and absolutely blew it.

As soon as they won the 2011 election (FG 76, Labour 37), they should have taken stock of all that is wrong with our public service and welfare society and did all the heavy lifting reform under a Fix-what-FF-did ticket for 3-5 years.

What happened? They did nothing.

Why? Enda Kenny has no vision or courage.

So the Ireland we have today still has all the same problems (and some more) with the public service, health service and welfare budget that we did in 2011. Now FG look just like FF in their ineptitude. The rest look clueless too.

Have to agree. Out of the rest I would like to see SocDems get a chance. The country needs to take a chance on someone new for the greater good.

Wheeliebin30

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Have to agree. Out of the rest I would like to see SocDems get a chance. The country needs to take a chance on someone new for the greater good.

They have 5 members or something?

How could they run the country?

Snow Garden

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Have to agree. Out of the rest I would like to see SocDems get a chance. The country needs to take a chance on someone new for the greater good.

Yeah but the Irish electorate are also afraid of change and are unlikely to look beyond the local lad fixing the potholes.

I think 2011 was an opportunity we will never see again. We are doomed to bad public service and a shoddy political system.

Plumbthedepths

Snow Garden wrote:

As soon as they won the 2011 election (FG 76, Labour 37), they should have taken stock of all that is wrong with our public service and welfare society and did all the heavy lifting reform under a Fix-what-FF-did ticket for 3-5 years.

Just to put this out there. It was conceded by Regina Doherty FG TD now minister in the DESP, on the Vincent Brown show a few years ago that FF prior to leaving office had made 2/3rds of the necessary budgetary adjustments ( admittedly to clean up their own mess). Only budget passed by the FG/Lab government was deemed progressive and that was prior to the 2016 election the other 4 as judged by the ERSI were regressive.
The country was in shock for much of the early part of this decade, FG could have reformed so much with little to no opposition but decided to maintain the status quo.

AbdulAbhaile

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Im telling you after only 9 years of saddling the country with 200 billion debt FF will be back in charge because of a 600 million overrun of the hospital.

Embrace the madness.

As someone who voted FG No 1 in the last two elections having fallen for the "new politics" line of bull sh1t I'll be glad to see the back of them.

They are not one iota different from FF, all we ever get is different clowns running the circus so when we do end up with a SF or people before progress government or even worse some extreme right wing headbangers holding the ballance of power, the way the DUP tail is wagging the tory dog its FF, FG actions that will be to blame and the new children’s hospital is just the most expensive example of the way both parties are happy to waste opportunities and massive amounts of tax payers hard earned money.

So yea embrace the madness, it's what we're used to.

Snow Garden

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Just to put this out there. It was conceded by Regina Doherty FG TD now minister in the DESP, on the Vincent Brown show a few years ago that FF prior to leaving office had made 2/3rds of the necessary budgetary adjustments ( admittedly to clean up their own mess). Only budget passed by the FG/Lab government was deemed progressive and that was prior to the 2016 election the other 4 as judged by the ERSI were regressive.
The country was in shock for much of the early part of this decade, FG could have reformed so much with little to no opposition but decided to maintain the status quo.

Yes very good point. Poor Brian Lenihan died trying to clean up the mess.

I wanted FG to come in, "look at the books" and then do a state of the nation type speech outlining a further austerity plan to fix the country/economy and prevent the national debt going to unsustainable levels (we still borrow to pay for our bloated but ineffective public sector). People would have been willing to take further medicine if they knew it would improve society in the long run. Yeah they might have lost a few seats in 2016 but they could have used the "blame FF" line with a bit more conviction in 2011 as opposed to now.

Snow Garden

AbdulAbhaile wrote: »

As someone who voted FG No 1 in the last two elections having fallen for the "new politics" line of bull sh1t I'll be glad to see the back of them.

I hear you! I bought it too.

It's here if you want a good laugh...

http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2013/08/fine-gael-new-politics-march-2010.pdf

I think they tried to bury that document soon after the election!