€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

ToBeFrank123

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Im telling you after only 9 years of saddling the country with 200 billion debt FF will be back in charge because of a 600 million overrun of the hospital.

Embrace the madness.

People have very short memories and the rehabilitation of FF began at the last election, barely 5 years after the IMF got involved here.

And like I said people have short memories when it comes election time. A 1 billion over-run on a hospital will be far fresher in their minds than anything FF did years ago.

I'm not excusing FF by the way, just telling you how the electorate act and react.

James Brown

I too voted Fine Gael as I bought into the 'new way of doing business'. They could have dismantled and rebuilt the HSE if they wanted. The public knew things needed drastic changing and we couldn't go on as before. What we got was literally more of the same old way we do business. Jobs 'for our own', Reilly allocating clinics to suit himself, Irish Water and a sweet deal for Denis. Then roll in the vulture funds, inappropriate behaviour, Kenny's tall tales and when things got shakey, inviting Fianna Fail, who had us 'practically eating out of bins' back to the power table to maintain stability. The stability of record breaking numbers of children homeless, health, housing crises and this hospital over run nobody seems to know what happened, to name but a few.
Fine Gael opened the door for Fianna Fail.
The whole plan is for FG and FF to keep each other as the only viable options. They actively doom us to picking one of the two by pretending they are different but having each others back lest a third option raise it's head and consign them to the medical waste bin where cancerous growths belong.

malinheader

Amirani wrote: »

This Greater Manchester thing comes up commonly enough. It's the most ignorant and ill-informed comparison going.

A little bit of Googling will tell you that it's factually inaccurate in population terms. A little bit of critical thinking will tell you why it's silly to compare provision of public services to a densely populated metro area and to a sparsely populated landmass that is mostly rural.

And what has rural got to do with it.Im from Donegal. Do you think the specialists travel to my county. Or do you think they come and collect us for treatment in Dublin or Galway.No we have to take family to these places ourselves. And its only numbers were comparing here.

By the way any comment on the health care budget being the same as NASA.

Amirani

malinheader wrote: »

And what has rural got to do with it.Im from Donegal. Do you think the specialists travel to my county. Or do you think they come and collect us for treatment in Dublin or Galway.No we have to take family to these places ourselves. And its only numbers were comparing here.

You're in Donegal. You have an acute and a maternity hospital in Letterkenny. At the same time we have hospitals in the likes of Wexford, Kerry and Laois and many places in between. You really don't see how this is a different cost model to providing healthcare to a single urbanised area around Manchester?

By the way any comment on the health care budget being the same as NASA.

This is entirely irrelevant. You could make an argument for that either being a good thing or a bad thing. The Irish Healthcare system serves the medical needs of 5 million people, NASA serves the healthcare needs of 0 million people...

Complete apples and oranges.

facehugger99

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

RTE News reporting that BAM has offered to opt out of children’s hospital build:

The contractor responsible for the national children's hospital has said it will opt out from the project if the board responsible for it wish to re-tender the contract.

Theo Cullinane, the chief executive of BAM, said if the board wish to "procure the work in some other way" they will "co-operate with them to facilitate this option".

However, BAM said the company "will continue its commitment to the new Children's Hospital and the confidence of all parties involved is a vital requirement for the company."

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2019/0215/1030824-childrens-hospital/

Interesting.

I suspect this is very clever from BAM. Throws the ball back into the Board's and Govt's court.

They will not want to re-tender this scheme.

Amirani

facehugger99 wrote: »

Interesting.

I suspect this is very clever from BAM. Throws the ball back into the Board's and Govt's court.

They will not want to re-tender this scheme.

Pretty much. You can be sure if they re-tendered for the same site/project that the new tenders would come in around the new higher figure. No contractor is going to come in back around the original tender prices.

facehugger99

Amirani wrote: »

Pretty much. You can be sure if they re-tendered for the same site/project that the new tenders would come in around the new higher figure. No contractor is going to come in back around the original tender prices.

Also, for the Board to extract themselves from this Contract and re-tender will cost millions.

Even if they did re-tender, there's no guarantee that a new contract won't have claims and increases - in fact, it's almost a certainty it will. Then you'll have loads of armchair experts complaining how they managed to bollox up the contract TWICE!!!

Yeah, BAM know exactly what they're doing. They've basically told Varadkar and the rest of the Government to put up or shut up.

marvin80

Matt Barrett wrote: »

They could have dismantled and rebuilt the HSE if they wanted.

+1
They had a massive opportunity to clean up the whole public service, especially the power of the unions but took the easy way out.

We're going down the same dark road now again - it's sickening.

ToBeFrank123

Re-tender is the only solution.

That and building on a greenfield site.

This hospital is supposed to last 150 years. If it takes a couple more years to get it right then so be it.

And if it takes 2 billion or even 2.5 billion to get it right so be it. But only if its in a locaton where it can be expanded easily enough - and that is not St. James.

TheRiverman

Varadkar,Donoghue and Harris to lose their seats in the next election would hit hard,but will the voters in those constituencies have the balls to do it ?.

malinheader

Amirani wrote: »

You're in Donegal. You have an acute and a maternity hospital in Letterkenny. At the same time we have hospitals in the likes of Wexford, Kerry and Laois and many places in between. You really don't see how this is a different cost model to providing healthcare to a single urbanised area around Manchester?



This is entirely irrelevant. You could make an argument for that either being a good thing or a bad thing. The Irish Healthcare system serves the medical needs of 5 million people, NASA serves the healthcare needs of 0 million people...

Complete apples and oranges.

So by your reply I take it you think what is spent on health care in this country is ok and its working ok. Again can you not grasp the greatet Manchester QUOTE was about population numbers. I wasn't comparing health care in Manchester to health care here.

ednwireland

BAM said today that in response to the Taoiseach’s comments in the Dáil on Tuesday, it has written to Varadkar directly “to respectfully request him to clarify that he was not referring to BAM in the Dáil and that BAM has made and continues to make a significant contribution to Ireland, including in the context of the New Children’s Hospital, where BAM is in full compliance with all its obligations”.

well done leo P**s off your main contractor, i suspect if it wasnt for parliamentry privelige there may have been more !

facehugger99

facehugger99 wrote: »

Then you'll have loads of armchair experts .......

Right on cue :rolleyes:

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Re-tender is the only solution.

That and building on a greenfield site.

This hospital is supposed to last 150 years. If it takes a couple more years to get it right then so be it.

And if it takes 2 billion or even 2.5 billion to get it right so be it. But only if its in a locaton where it can be expanded easily enough - and that is not St. James.

Amirani

malinheader wrote: »

So by your reply I take it you think what is spent on health care in this country is ok and its working ok.

You shouldn't take that from my post because I said nothing of the sort. I said comparing the headline costs of a healthcare system across the whole of a landmass the size of Ireland versus a single city and its environs is silly. The cost bases are very different.

malinheader wrote: »

Again can you not grasp the greatet Manchester QUOTE was about population numbers. I wasn't comparing health care in Manchester to health care here.

Greater Manchester has a population of about 3 million, Ireland has a population of about 5 million. So Ireland's population is around 66% bigger. You can't just do a bit of rounding and say they have the same population, there's a significant difference.

Not really having a go at you on this. This Greater Manchester versus Ireland comparison is lazily thrown out by the media quite regularly despite its inaccuracy and irrelevance.

RustyNut

facehugger99 wrote: »

Right on cue :rolleyes:

Well let's face facts, the "real experts" couldn't have gotten it much more wrong when it came to pricing the build than any "armchair expert"

facehugger99

RustyNut wrote: »

Well let's face facts, the "real experts" couldn't have gotten it much more wrong when it came to pricing the build than any "armchair expert"

That's a very common logical fallacy.

Just because something is bad doesn't mean it can't be worse.

ToBeFrank123

ednwireland wrote: »

well done leo P**s off your main contractor, i suspect if it wasnt for parliamentry privelige there may have been more !

Who cares.

Let's get one of the contractors who built Alder Hey or the hospital in Portugal which is twice the size for a 5th of the price.

There is no reason a relatively small hospital like this should cost 4 or 5 times the norm. Take out the politicians and the Irish Civil Servants from the process because both groups are laughably incompetent.

Snow Garden

TheRiverman wrote: »

Varadkar,Donoghue and Harris to lose their seats in the next election would hit hard,but will the voters in those constituencies have the balls to do it ?.

Not a notion. The Irish electorate are too stupid and predictable for that. They wont get rid of government ministers in their own constituency no matter the shambles they oversee. FG will still do ok because there is no real opposition. Labour took the hit for them at the last GE (down 26) because Labour stupidly took on the Irish Water disaster. I still think FG will get around 45 seats (down 5).
.

James Brown

It'll be more of the same. A shuffle of the indies willing to sell out for a seat.
FF/FG make such a hames of things it's getting to the stage where, 'sure who else is there?' can be answered by, 'anybody'. I think I would have done a better job. In fact if Leo and the gang had sat on their hands and let administrators run things, we'd likely be better off. The only policies they get behind make things worse.

The damage is done, but it's not acceptable for those responsible to shrug it off as lessons learned. Anyone could have done a bad job. We expect these loo-lahs to have in the least basic common or garden sense. They put themselves forward for these jobs. Poison chalice my arse.

ToBeFrank123

facehugger99 wrote: »

Right on cue :rolleyes:

This sh*te again?

We left it to the so called experts and they came up with a sh*te project that now the main contractor wants to give up on.

These are the experts you love and admire so much. That says a lot about your own expertise on the subject.

I'm not in charge of this project and don't want armchair experts involved no more than you. I want real experts involved not your mates who have done such a disastrous job.

But hey you keep singing the praises of these great experts.

facehugger99

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I'm not in charge of this project ..

Taxi driver by any chance?

ToBeFrank123

RustyNut wrote: »

Well let's face facts, the "real experts" couldn't have gotten it much more wrong when it came to pricing the build than any "armchair expert"

If it wasn't for "armchair experts" sticking their noses in, the cost over-runs would grow to god knows how much and facehugger would be telling us 3.5 billion is fine for a hospital this small in a terrible location.

ToBeFrank123

facehugger99 wrote: »

Taxi driver by any chance?

Ah right...so we're doing this.

You a cowboy developer by any chance?

facehugger99

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

If it wasn't for "armchair experts" sticking their noses in, the cost over-runs would grow to god knows how much and facehugger would be telling us 3.5 billion is fine for a hospital this small in a terrible location.

Seems to be just one person proposing spending more money and it ain't me.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

And if it takes 2 billion or even 2.5 billion to get it right so be it.

ToBeFrank123

I suppose Facehugger thinks those who built Alderhey are armchair experts too

ToBeFrank123

facehugger99 wrote: »

Seems to be just one person proposing spending more money and it ain't me.

Ah nice taking something out of context.

I said if it means spending 2 billion to move it out of the p*ss poor location your expert friends suggest then so be it.

A childrens hospital with no scope for expansion. You couldn't buy expertise or rather stupidity like that. But as long as you think they are the experts that's all that matters.

Glebee

Can we not get the people champion Mick Wallace to finish the build....

ToBeFrank123

Glebee wrote: »

Can we not get the people champion Mick Wallace to finish the build....

I don't think he could do a worse job being honest.

What we need is a contractor to deliver the project at a price in line with international norms. Without the nod and a wink or the lowballing which seems to be endemic with projects like this in Ireland.

Deebles McBeebles

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/construction-firm-building-national-childrens-hospital-says-hospital-board-can-opt-out-of-contract-37819903.html

tretorn

It took BAM long enough to make a statement but I suppose after wht Leo said in the Dail they had to do something.

I wonder will he retract the statment he made about some contractors never getting public tenders again. It was an odd thing to say in the midst of all the controversy about the NCH. Was Leo saying the Government have been taken fora ride and there is nothing to be done about it other than making sure those involved never get a GIG again.

How can one party to a Contract be tied in if the other parties figures are going up a thousand euros a day.

Hopefully now the whole project will be shelved, the site is totally unsuitable and thats even before the hospital is even built. There is just no capacity in the City Centre for a new hospital this size especially when it will be impossible to co locate a maternity hospital there too.

Cushie Butterfield

I think BAM are calling Varadkar’s bluff after his recent comment.

Up to this the govt spin was that it was too late to break the contract, so were happy to take the heat off themselves, & vague comments which could be construed that BAM are totally to blame suited them, rather than admitting that political pressures as regards pushing ahead with phase a before phase b was properly planned & costed were really the biggest reason for the cost overruns (compounded by poor internal communication, reporting & controls).

Will be interesting to see, now that Vardkar’s bluff has been called, how he’ll attempt to spin things.

The pantomime continues.

pdpmur

screamer wrote: »

No in Germany and other countries the forms of contract are clearer, and fairer. The forms of contract are what the IRISH government themselves introduced about 10 years ago.
The construction industry is a low profit one, high turnover yes, but low profit, and high risk and getting paid is very difficult. I feel zero sympathy for the overrun, the constitution organizations are now using the governments own contract to get their money. It’s a horrible form of contract and very adversarial. If you think government contracts are good, I just point you to the carillon fiasco and the suppliers they screwed over taking possession of schools that weren’t even paid out for. Yes, it’s a tough industry, you should try it sometimes. And if the government want to know why this has overrun, look in the mirror with their horrible form of contract, it’s their own fault. Maybe if their contract was less adversarial and more fair, the building organizations wouldn’t have to counter with claims......

+1

Given that the GCCC forms of contract were steered into existence by an Irish Dept of Defense civil servant (aided by some very well paid legal firm), is it just pure co-incidence that the GCCC contracts contain almost identical terminology to that of US Dept of Defense procurement contracts (or am I just being overly suspicious)?

There are plenty of off-the-shelf multiple forms of contract available (e.g. FIDIC) that have been honed over time to suit the construction industry worldwide. But we have ended up with an ugly mongrel of a (pretty much two-size-fits all) standard contract with glaring deficiencies, thanks to this fubar of a process initiated by Mary Harney back in her heyday.

I can count on one finger the number of public works contracts that I have been involved with that didn't involve a dogfight over claims for most of the duration of the contract, and it all stems from the inadequacies of the GCCC in my humble opinion. Yes, it has been tinkered with recently, but it's still a rabid mongrel that should be put down quickly.

theguzman

Cancel the contract and invest the €2bn into actual real infrastructure such as roads and railways, slash the social budget heavily and again divert funds into infrastructure. Ireland needs anywhere between €50 to €100 billion to rebuild roads and railways to bring us to to 1st world standard. Such an investment would pay for itself several times over in increased economic output. Squandering money on socialism projects like this will only drain the tax pot even more. Ban BAM from all future public tenders and slap an additional 10% tax onto their private work to drive them out of Ireland permanently.

salmocab

theguzman wrote: »

Cancel the contract and invest the €2bn into actual real infrastructure such as roads and railways, slash the social budget heavily and again divert funds into infrastructure. Ireland needs anywhere between €50 to €100 billion to rebuild roads and railways to bring us to to 1st world standard. Such an investment would pay for itself several times over in increased economic output. Squandering money on socialism projects like this will only drain the tax pot even more. Ban BAM from all future public tenders and slap an additional 10% tax onto their private work to drive them out of Ireland permanently.

We do actually need a hospital that bit isn’t made up

James Brown

Glebee wrote: »

Can we not get the people champion Mick Wallace to finish the build....

I would assume he'd at least know what he was doing. Don't hold your breath for any tax mind

JupiterKid

This scandal is an obscene and monumental f*ck up of the highest order and a wanton waste of taxpayers' (ie you and me) money.

Construction has already started. What's going to happen the St James's site now?

It shows that Harris is totally unfit for purpose as Minister for Health (grossly inexperienced and took on a portfolio he wasn't in any way of handling properly), as is Eoghan Murphy as probably the most incompetent and ineffectual Minister for Housing in the history of the State and Leo V himself - master of spin and zero substance.

We need a general election and a new government and we need it NOW.

malinheader

JupiterKid wrote: »

This scandal is an obscene and monumental f*ck up of the highest order and a wanton waste of taxpayers' (ie you and me) money.

Construction has already started. What's going to happen the St James's site now?

It shows that Harris is totally unfit for purpose as Minister for Health (grossly inexperienced and took on a portfolio he wasn't in any way of handling properly), as is Eoghan Murphy as probably the most incompetent and ineffectual Minister for Housing in the history of the State and Leo V himself - master of spin and zero substance.

We need a general election and a new government and we need it NOW.

We need someone new to vote for first or else we'll just be replacing incompetence with incompetence.

Sheep Shagger

JupiterKid wrote: »

This scandal is an obscene and monumental f*ck up of the highest order and a wanton waste of taxpayers' (ie you and me) money.

Construction has already started. What's going to happen the St James's site now?

It shows that Harris is totally unfit for purpose as Minister for Health (grossly inexperienced and took on a portfolio he wasn't in any way of handling properly), as is Eoghan Murphy as probably the most incompetent and ineffectual Minister for Housing in the history of the State and Leo V himself - master of spin and zero substance.

We need a general election and a new government and we need it NOW.

And who should replace those you think are not fit for purpose?

You a forgetting that while there a ministers who can move in and out of portfolios, there are senior civil servants who are long term employees in departments- no criticism of them?

James Brown

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

And who should replace those you think are not fit for purpose?

You a forgetting that while there a ministers who can move in and out of portfolios, there are senior civil servants who are long term employees in departments- no criticism of them?

That excuse carries no weight. If you vote for FF/FG that's on you.

Are you are looking to pass the buck? If I take on the role of housing or health minister I expect to be held accountable for my role, polices and any action or in-action on my part or the department I over see. I'd be getting paid well and a nice fat pension for my troubles. Nameless civil servants are private individuals doing a job. We can get into who has it handy and who doesn't, but Politicians are policy makers.

bryaj

Give the site to bam to build apartments on it.
Get bam to build a new hospital on a greenfield site for 1 billion all in!

James Brown

malinheader wrote: »

We need someone new to vote for first or else we'll just be replacing incompetence with incompetence.

Let's try one government with no FF/FG, just once. Might the economy crash again? Might we need 'take one for the team' again? Who knows.

ChikiChiki

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That excuse carries no weight. If you vote for FF/FG that's on you.

Are you are looking to pass the buck? If I take on the role of housing or health minister I expect to be held accountable for my role, polices and any action or in-action on my part or the department I over see. I'd be getting paid well and a nice fat pension for my troubles. Nameless civil servants are private individuals doing a job. We can get into who has it handy and who doesn't, but Politicians are policy makers.

The argument about scrutinising civil servants holds some weight. Some of them have never been held accountable having been in positions of power over successive governments. It certainly still does excuse the frankly unforgivable incompetence of FG/FF.

Wheeliebin30

JupiterKid wrote: »

This scandal is an obscene and monumental f*ck up of the highest order and a wanton waste of taxpayers' (ie you and me) money.

Construction has already started. What's going to happen the St James's site now?

It shows that Harris is totally unfit for purpose as Minister for Health (grossly inexperienced and took on a portfolio he wasn't in any way of handling properly), as is Eoghan Murphy as probably the most incompetent and ineffectual Minister for Housing in the history of the State and Leo V himself - master of spin and zero substance.

We need a general election and a new government and we need it NOW.

This is hilarious.

I am not arguing it’s been a **** up but to call it a **** up of the highest order after everything that happened only 10 years ago.

Let’s get a bit of perspective.

Wheeliebin30

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Let's try one government with no FF/FG, just once. Might the economy crash again? Might we need 'take one for the team' again? Who knows.

Suppose that’s SF is it?

Even though you never give the alternative who will be better.

Just anyone but FG/FF.

Who is that though?

ToBeFrank123

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

This is hilarious.

I am not arguing it’s been a **** up but to call it a **** up of the highest order after everything that happened only 10 years ago.

Let’s get a bit of perspective.

Its pretty bad though. Its at least a billion over budget compared to international norms. Its in the wrong location. And it seems no proper pre-planning analysis was done for the Mater site or if there was, its strange the planners rejected the hospital in the end.
Its been a major screw up from the start, no-one doubts that with lots of blame to go around.

Sheep Shagger

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That excuse carries no weight. If you vote for FF/FG that's on you.

Are you are looking to pass the buck? If I take on the role of housing or health minister I expect to be held accountable for my role, polices and any action or in-action on my part or the department I over see. I'd be getting paid well and a nice fat pension for my troubles. Nameless civil servants are private individuals doing a job. We can get into who has it handy and who doesn't, but Politicians are policy makers.

Not looking to pass the buck but its more then the minster of the day swho should be getting the blame.

Senior civil servants on their guaranteed life for job (unlike politicians) and gold plated pensions should also be accountable that's all I'm saying.

Wheeliebin30

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Not looking to pass the buck but its more then the minster of the day swho should be getting the blame.

Senior civil servants on their guaranteed life for job (unlike politicians) and gold plated pensions should also be accountable that's all I'm saying.

Nope Matt wants a new government.

But EVERY time he is asked who that is he runs and hides.

Wheeliebin30

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Its pretty bad though. Its at least a billion over budget compared to international norms. Its in the wrong location. And it seems no proper pre-planning analysis was done for the Mater site or if there was, its strange the planners rejected the hospital in the end.
Its been a major screw up from the start, no-one doubts that with lots of blame to go around.

But who’s to blame for the location?

This has been planned since 1962.

The decision was made in 2012.

Simon Harris was minister of health since 2016.

His head will roll but it’s really nothing to do with him.

Snow Garden

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Not looking to pass the buck but its more then the minster of the day swho should be getting the blame.

Senior civil servants on their guaranteed life for job (unlike politicians) and gold plated pensions should also be accountable that's all I'm saying.

The permanent government (civil/public service) are 95% of the problem. They hold all the cards and keep their minister in the dark most of the time.
Any minister that took the senior managers on in terms of changes quickly learns that the new sheriff is just a figurehead.

markodaly

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think it’s worth a try. We know what we get with overpaid waffling morons ...

Are you prepared to suffer the consequences if it all goes tits up and by going tits up, just look at Venezuela to see when left-wing populists get into power.
Closer to home, look at Brexit. Look how complicated that is.

Easy solutions are for dummies.