€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

ChikiChiki

markodaly wrote: »

Are you prepared to suffer the consequences if it all goes tits up and by going tits up, just look at Venezuela to see when left-wing populists get into power.
Closer to home, look at Brexit. Look how complicated that is.

Easy solutions are for dummies.

Well it's gone astoundingly well with FG/FF so far. Stop the delusion. We are on a seriously worrying trajectory if something doesn't change. There is not any party in the Dail I trust to govern the country at the minute.

markodaly

Matt Barrett wrote: »

They could have dismantled and rebuilt the HSE if they wanted. .

When could they have done this?
In coalition with Labour? :D:D

markodaly

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Well it's gone astoundingly well with FG/FF so far. Stop the delusion. We are on a seriously worrying trajectory if something doesn't change. There is not any party in the Dail I trust to govern the country at the minute.

I don't disagree with the state of politics in this country, but we are to blame for it.
We all want reform, so long as it does not impact on us.

FG seems to be a steady hand but with that, they are too accepting of the status quo in regards to how things are run, especially in the civil service.

However, there are very good things about the country. For example, we are at full employment. If you want a job, you can get one. So, lets not all pretend we are Poland circa 1945.

One has to be careful though not to accept change for change sake, as things can be an awful lot worse under a populist government. Just look at the UK!
Like does anyone think any other party can do better?

Plumbthedepths

It's nice to see the narrative has changed from look at Greece to look at Venezuela, more exotic and interesting.

worded

Pic of builders arriving ...

brendanwalsh

This is a disgrace.

Government should halt construction now, re-tender the project with a maximum price of 500 million or whatever the status quo for a hospital in the United states is. In fact, just buy a blueprint from a US company who are experts in building hospitals.

The United States is at the forefront of providing healthcare due to the private nature of it.

We have a country and population that isn't even as big as most states in America, yet we are going to have a hospital that is more expensive than the premier centres of excellence in the entire world- cleveland clinic, mayo clinic, John Hopkins.

Snow Garden

brendanwalsh wrote: »

This is a disgrace.

Government should halt construction now, re-tender the project with a maximum price of 500 million or whatever the status quo for a hospital in the United states is. In fact, just buy a blueprint from a US company who are experts in building hospitals.

The United States is at the forefront of providing healthcare due to the private nature of it.

We have a country and population that isn't even as big as most states in America, yet we are going to have a hospital that is more expensive than the premier centres of excellence in the entire world- cleveland clinic, mayo clinic, John Hopkins.

But the stupid Irish put up with it time and time again. Makes it easy for politicians and permanent government.

Wanderer78

brendanwalsh wrote:

The United States is at the forefront of providing healthcare due to the private nature of it.

Hahahahahahaha!

salmocab

brendanwalsh wrote: »

This is a disgrace.

Government should halt construction now, re-tender the project with a maximum price of 500 million or whatever the status quo for a hospital in the United states is. In fact, just buy a blueprint from a US company who are experts in building hospitals.

The United States is at the forefront of providing healthcare due to the private nature of it.

We have a country and population that isn't even as big as most states in America, yet we are going to have a hospital that is more expensive than the premier centres of excellence in the entire world- cleveland clinic, mayo clinic, John Hopkins.

We couldn’t build a hospital for half a billion that’s just fanciful. That initial costing was pure pie in the sky. We do need to stop and take stock of where we’re at but knee jerk reactions like this and someone else saying bam should have extra taxes put on them is just silly and furthers nothing.

v638sg7k1a92bx

This may have been asked but why was this site picked in the first place?

Wheeliebin30

Pearl Freezing Mischief wrote: »

This may have been asked but why was this site picked in the first place?

Read the dolphin report.

uptherebels

brendanwalsh wrote: »

The United States is at the forefront of providing healthcare due to the private nature of it.

You mean providing healthcare to those who can afford it?

salmocab

Pearl Freezing Mischief wrote: »

This may have been asked but why was this site picked in the first place?

It was picked based on medical reasons which is fair enough to a point but really I think it was a short sighted move as we should be aspiring to leave things in a place where future generations can improve on them.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Read the dolphin report.

TLDR

facehugger99

Judging by Harris' latest comments, as expected the Govt have collectively **** their pants at the thought of re-tendering

BAM have run rings around the Board contractually and now schooled them in the public relations dept.

It's men against boys.

ChikiChiki

facehugger99 wrote: »

Judging by Harris' latest comments, as expected the Govt have collectively **** their pants at the thought of re-tendering

BAM have run rings around the Board contractually and now schooled them in the public relations dept.

It's men against boys.

As I said previously, this government have no teeth and a glaringly obvious lack of real world experience. It beggers belief really. Most average joes with real world managerial experience would have done a better job here than successive Health Ministers.

hmmm

The political problem for the government, and what they are not tackling, is that they appear to be giving this project a blank cheque. We're told we need a new children's hospital which is fair enough, but there are lots of things we need in this country as regards infrastructure. It's not good enough to simply say "well we need this" and for the taxpayer to watch as the cost escalates, seemingly without limit.

Harris getting all emotional (great acting) and talking about children's health isn't winning him any favours - we need some hard headed negotiator which the public would trust to go in as representative of the Minister.

Wheeliebin30

ChikiChiki wrote: »

As I said previously, this government have no teeth and a glaringly obvious lack of real world experience. It beggers belief really. Most average joes with real world managerial experience would have done a better job here than successive Health Ministers.

Armchair experts crawling out of the woodwork nowadays saying the site should be relocated.

People who have no clue about the history of the project but are suddenly experts in the field.

The dolphin report was put together through years of analysis etc.

But no people on boards who only heard of this last week know better.

Kermit.de.frog

thecomedian wrote: »

BAM

Wittest post of the year and it's not even March.

Well done sir.

Wheeliebin30

hmmm wrote: »

The political problem for the government, and what they are not tackling, is that they appear to be giving this project a blank cheque. We're told we need a new children's hospital which is fair enough, but there are lots of things we need in this country as regards infrastructure. It's not good enough to simply say "well we need this" and for the taxpayer to watch as the cost escalates, seemingly without limit.

Harris getting all emotional (great acting) and talking about children's health isn't winning him any favours - we need some hard headed negotiator which the public would trust to go in as representative of the Minister.

Any suggestions?

salmocab

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Armchair experts crawling out of the woodwork nowadays saying the site should be relocated.

People who have no clue about the history of the project but are suddenly experts in the field.

The dolphin report was put together through years of analysis etc.

But no people on boards who only heard of this last week know better.

You keep saying armchair experts, people are more than entitled to question where their tax money is spent. The actual experts haven’t exactly run a tight ship so far anyway. The dolphin report did pick the site but that doesn’t mean it was the right decision. It’s a poor choice as the access issues won’t be going away and this is a hospital for many generations, it should be built with eyes firmly on the future.

SEPT 23 1989

Give it to an Irish company that have built hospitals for the state for the last 30 years

Damien360

salmocab wrote: »

You keep saying armchair experts, people are more than entitled to question where their tax money is spent. The actual experts haven’t exactly run a tight ship so far anyway. The dolphin report did pick the site but that doesn’t mean it was the right decision. It’s a poor choice as the access issues won’t be going away and this is a hospital for many generations, it should be built with eyes firmly on the future.

From memory, the report wanted co-location as a must have. A host of paediatric consultants were on various radio stations stating that adult medicine was far removed from paediatric medicine in so many ways that co-location made no sense.

Ease of access for the entire country is important as it is to serve the whole country. Sick kids will not be on public transport. We seem to want to push this site in the basis of possible delays if it doesn't go ahead. Not much good having the best hospital if nobody can get to it.

Snow Garden

facehugger99 wrote: »

Judging by Harris' latest comments, as expected the Govt have collectively **** their pants at the thought of re-tendering

BAM have run rings around the Board contractually and now schooled them in the public relations dept.

It's men against boys.

Clever move by BAM to be fair. It makes the government look rudderless.

ChikiChiki

Dolphin Report yada yada predictable. The report doesn't necessarily mean the correct conclusion has been reached. All it does is whitewash the wrong decision as is the case here.

There's at least one FG shill firefighting in this thread.

salmocab

Damien360 wrote: »

From memory, the report wanted co-location as a must have. A host of paediatric consultants were on various radio stations stating that adult medicine was far removed from paediatric medicine in so many ways that co-location made no sense.

Ease of access for the entire country is important as it is to serve the whole country. Sick kids will not be on public transport. We seem to want to push this site in the basis of possible delays if it doesn't go ahead. Not much good having the best hospital if nobody can get to it.

Look I’m sure for every expert that says co-location is a must we could find one that will say it isn’t. There are undoubtedly some very good reasons for it and ideally we would have tri-location with a maternity hospital too but we as in all things need to make choices and to my mind we should have made choices based on what would be possible in the future. A children’s hospital well located could have been followed over a few decades by a teaching hospital and a maternity hospital and even improved infrastructure. We won’t be building this again for probably another century so we owe it to future generations to get it right now.

Wheeliebin30

Damien360 wrote: »

From memory, the report wanted co-location as a must have. A host of paediatric consultants were on various radio stations stating that adult medicine was far removed from paediatric medicine in so many ways that co-location made no sense.

Ease of access for the entire country is important as it is to serve the whole country. Sick kids will not be on public transport. We seem to want to push this site in the basis of possible delays if it doesn't go ahead. Not much good having the best hospital if nobody can get to it.

What about staff trying to get to a greenfield site with no public transport off the m50?

And people bringing sick kids on the m50 to blanch during rush hour.

Good luck with that.

salmocab

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

And people bringing sick kids on the m50 to blanch during rush hour.
.

This doesn’t make any real sense, if it’s in James’s people would still need to use the m50 at rush hour and some would need to then battle city bound traffic too.

Wheeliebin30

salmocab wrote: »

This doesn’t make any real sense, if it’s in James’s people would still need to use the m50 at rush hour and some would need to then battle city bound traffic too.

Eh no.

Let’s say you’re coming down the M1, you don’t need to go near the m50 if it’s not in blanch.

Anyway this debate shows it went on for years and years with many opinions put forward.

Experts everywhere crawling out of the woodwork nowadays.

branie2

Scandalous

Damien360

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

What about staff trying to get to a greenfield site with no public transport off the m50?

And people bringing sick kids on the m50 to blanch during rush hour.

Good luck with that.

That's true. I travel the M50 most days and it is terrible but welcome it compared to the monthly trip past James hospital. Blanch has buses, needs a rail link but is an available site, close to existing hospital, accessible to most compared to James's. It is also so big a site that expansion in future is possible. The big thing is the state actually fully own this Greenfield site unlike many other proposed Greenfield sites.

Wheeliebin30

Damien360 wrote: »

That's true. I travel the M50 most days and it is terrible but welcome it compared to the monthly trip past James hospital. Blanch has buses, needs a rail link but is an available site, close to existing hospital, accessible to most compared to James's. It is also so big a site that expansion in future is possible. The big thing is the state actually fully own this Greenfield site unlike many other proposed Greenfield sites.

Tell me the buses that access blanch hospital?

And where they leave from please.

Damien360

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Tell me the buses that access blanch hospital?

And where they leave from please.

Not a clue. Blanch as in the village and area has buses. If they dont currently arrive at the hospital, it doesn't take a genius to route one in there when demand is required. I'm sure you will tell me demand is already there.

salmocab

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Experts everywhere crawling out of the woodwork nowadays.

Yeah apparently so, on all sides though.

Wheeliebin30

Damien360 wrote: »

Not a clue. Blanch as in the village and area has buses. If they dont currently arrive at the hospital, it doesn't take a genius to route one in there when demand is required. I'm sure you will tell me demand is already there.

People from all over the city work in the children’s hospital.

You admit there is no public transport to blanch.

So we should route a bus and train from all over the city to feed Blanchardstown?

Have you a costing for this?

Damien360

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

People from all over the city work in the children’s hospital.

You admit there is no public transport blanch

So we should route a bus and train from all over the city to feed Blanchardstown?

Have you a costing for this?

Is this the Joe Duffy show ?

Plenty of buses to Blanch. I see them all the time. An extra route is costly but not billions. Dart is close to the park so not a reasonable distance. Not feasible but at one time we were routing a rail line to city from Dublin airport. Blanch is bigger by population than many Irish towns. It needs more links. The current cost of James's will double by end build. The state has form in this regard.

Wheeliebin30

Damien360 wrote: »

Is this the Joe Duffy show ?

Plenty of buses to Blanch. I see them all the time. An extra route is costly but not billions. Dart is close to the park so not a reasonable distance. Not feasible but at one time we were routing a rail line to city from Dublin airport. Blanch is bigger by population than many Irish towns. It needs more links. The current cost of James's will double by end build. The state has form in this regard.

The dart is close to which park??????

branie2

Is it a good idea to bring a sick child to hospital on public transport? There would be germs around the place!

ressem

What can any government cut out that would bring the build price down, not push it up?
The Irish Times had the list of numbers that are pushing the price up.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/new-children-s-hospital-will-cost-1-433bn-taoiseach-confirms-1.3735613
https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/joint_committee_on_health/submissions/2019/2019-01-16_opening-statement-tom-costello-national-paediatric-hospital-development-board_en.pdf page 5

including
VAT +€48 million,
Omissions in stage 1 design +20 million? Drainage, pipes air vents, glazing, gaps identified by contractors +94 million. More costly fittings and lights, +21 million.
That seems to be the responsibility of the public service.

https://constructionprocurement.gov.ie/21-november-2017-government-strategy-to-increase-use-of-digital-technology-in-key-public-works-projects-launched/

The strategy will see public bodies establishing requirements for the use of Building Information Modelling (BIM) in the design, construction and operation of public buildings and infrastructure on a phased basis over the next 4 years, commencing with the larger, more complex projects, where those operating at that scale are already working through BIM. A BIM model comprises a digital dataset of all the information associated with a project’s development from the early design stage through to its operation.

Minister O’Donovan said ‘BIM is fast becoming an essential requirement for informed consumers of construction services internationally, and many countries have established BIM requirements at a national level. It has already been successfully used on a number of complex building projects completed in Ireland in recent years, primarily in the technology and pharmaceutical sectors. It is also being used on the National Children’s Hospital at the St James’s Hospital campus, on the Dublin Institute of Technology’s Grangegorman Campus and across the Public Private Partnership programme.’

Though, that large 900 car underground carpark is likely the first reason it can't be built for anything like the price of the Manchester one, which was built in a park. 1000 quid per square meter minimum? (Tom Parlon said 50K to 100K for an underground car park space for an apartment.)

Google earth 2018 pics suggest that compulsory purchasing some underused land 100 meters down the road for parking could have lessened this.

A new government could tell the GCC to look at the design and at all the pretty-pretty architectural fripperies that appear in the concept art, and make the appearance more utilitarian. I think that's about it.

The worry is that the building will stay the same and less visible cuts will be made to medical infrastructure, which negatively affects treatment results.
E.g from Alder Hey's iMRI scanning while a patient is on the neurosurgery table to reduce the need for repeat operations.

nice_guy80

branie2 wrote: »

Is it a good idea to bring a sick child to hospital on public transport? There would be germs around the place!

For routine checkups and consultant appointments then yes

Damien360

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

The dart is close to which park??????

For the love of God, you are being silly. The biggest park in Dublin, the Phoenix Park. Which is why I said it is not feasible. Where do you regularly drive ? Do you drive into the city centre on a normal morning commute ? Are you looking at the problem of transport from your location only and not at a.national access level ? Does cost matter ? And I mean taxpayers cost. We are not flush with cash despite what the government would like everyone to believe.

nice_guy80

Cut costs off the IT budget
Though it will mean a few well connected companies and consultancies won't get to make a killing on installations and equipment provision.

Wheeliebin30

Damien360 wrote: »

For the love of God, you are being silly. The biggest park in Dublin, the Phoenix Park. Which is why I said it is not feasible. Where do you regularly drive ? Do you drive into the city centre on a normal morning commute ? Are you looking at the problem of transport from your location only and not at a.national access level ? Does cost matter ? And I mean taxpayers cost. We are not flush with cash despite what the government would like everyone to believe.

You said the dart goes to the park.

Which park?

So you agree it’s not feasible.

What point are you trying to make?

Damien360

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

You said the dart goes to the park.

Which park?

So you agree it’s not feasible.

What point are you trying to make?

I give up with you. You can't read and you seem to like an argument. Easier to block you

ressem

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Cut costs off the IT budget
Though it will mean a few well connected companies and consultancies won't get to make a killing on installations and equipment provision.

Possibly, depends what it's doing.
Like my whining above about the car parking costs, someone with knowledge of how things can work efficiently needs to look through it.

Is the IT stuff is kids entertainment displays or controlling the newer fangled MRIs and equipment? A judgement should have been made on each years back.
Looking at the diagrams
http://www.nchplanning.ie/planning/st-jamess-hospital-campus-2/
there seems to be as much space taken for IT rooms, computer rooms, datacenters than for the emergency department.

Wheeliebin30

Damien360 wrote: »

I give up with you. You can't read and you seem to like an argument. Easier to block you

Go ahead please.

Millionaire only not

Mick Wallace is right this time , but a pure fiasco and they have a way out before they blow more they should take it

Auguste Comte

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Mick Wallace is right this time , but a pure fiasco and they have a way out before they blow more they should take it

They seem to be following the brexit thing, we've made a decision and no matter how bad it is we're sticking with it.

AndrewJRenko

branie2 wrote: »

Is it a good idea to bring a sick child to hospital on public transport? There would be germs around the place!

The good people at Great Ormond St seem to think it's a good idea;




https://www.gosh.nhs.uk/your-hospital-visit/travelling-gosh

Great Ormond Street Hospital (GOSH) is located in central London. Where possible, we ask patients to travel by walking or taking public transport to minimise air pollution and help our patients to breathe better.

brendanwalsh

The wolves are skulking while the wagons are being circled.

This government will fall on their own sword.

Leo the brave.....more like Leo the dumb.