€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

iamwhoiam

political analyst wrote: »

If something goes wrong with a patient in either a maternity hospital or a children's hospital then why can't the emergency care be given right there instead of transferring patient to a general hospital?

Certainly children are treated preferably in a paeds hospital . There would be practically no instance where they would be transferred to a general hospital .
Maternity hospital I can understand as the staff are obstetricians and gynaecologists , a mother might need general emergency surgery or dialysis etc .

political analyst

beauf wrote: »

I no idea what your point is, or the relevancy of that story to anything.

Presumably, it's obvious to you that I was responding to Harry Palmr, right?!

cnocbui

downtheroad wrote: »

Cost of building the Burj Khalifa in Dubai - $1.5bn

Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur- $1.6bn

Burj Al Arab in Dubai - $1bn

The Shard in London - £435m

Obviously these aren't hospitals but are impressive well known buildings that have all come in cheaper than this hospital is going to.

It is beyond ridiculous to compare the cost of building a hospital with an office building, hotel, or anything other than a hospital.

Apart from Apple's over the top platinum plated spaceship headquarters, hospitals are pretty much the most expensive types of buildings to construct.

Perth children's hospital - €760 M for 298 beds

Royal Adelaide Hospital - the most expensive in Oz, cost €1.38 B for 500 or so beds.

Three hospitals built in Queensland blew out by €1.38 B over their original budgets.

All of the above exceeded their initial budgets by significant margins. Looks like the only way to get approval for building hospitals is to lie through your teeth about the projected costs.

That is no defense of the utterly compromised and stupid situation here, which sets a new global standard for stupidity and cronyism. Religious orders should not be given state assets and should play no part in their running.

salmocab

beauf wrote: »

Nationally there has been a move everything to Dublin policy for almost everything.

It was never going to be anywhere but Dublin, the 2 hospitals it’s replacing are in Dublin, the largest population base by far is in Dublin and surrounding areas. It would be madness to have moved it anywhere else.
This isn’t a dubs get everything decision it’s the only rational place to have the hospital.

GAA Beo

How the sheeple keep voting Fine Gael is beyond me. I know the others are **** but my word enough is enough with these gombeens.

buried

Fine Gael blueskirt groupies would still vote for them if the hierarchy threw them all into concentration camps.

iamwhoiam

GAA Beo wrote: »

How the sheeple keep voting Fine Gael is beyond me. I know the others are **** but my word enough is enough with these gombeens.

They are all the bloody same anyway . Self servicing sleeveens

beauf

salmocab wrote: »

It was never going to be anywhere but Dublin, the 2 hospitals it’s replacing are in Dublin, the largest population base by far is in Dublin and surrounding areas. It would be madness to have moved it anywhere else.
This isn’t a dubs get everything decision it’s the only rational place to have the hospital.

For many people in Dublin you can get to locations outside of the city faster then inside of the city because you are going against peak time traffic. Rather then driving head first through the middle of the worst of it.

Its a bit of self fulling prophecy, if you move everything into Dublin, then everything will close to everything else. But it will put huge pressure on a tiny area and make everything in that area very expensive.

But cost isn't an issue is it....

jmayo

Not defending the media chasing hoor that was minister for health nor the child that is now, but this isn't just Dail political shenanigans, there is a load of it going on in HSE, top hospitals/universities fighting for new developments which means more resources, more status and higher profile.

A lot of this is actually down to turf wars between major hospitals and universities.

salmocab

beauf wrote: »

For many people in Dublin you can get to locations outside of the city faster then inside of the city because you are going against peak time traffic. Rather then driving head first through the middle of the worst of it.

Its a bit of self fulling prophecy, if you move everything into Dublin, then everything will close to everything else. But it will put huge pressure on a tiny area and make everything in that area very expensive.

But cost isn't an issue is it....

I’m not advocating it be in the city center, I think it should be somewhere accessible but it would make no sense to have it anywhere but Dublin.

Johnnyhpipe

At over €2Bn this tiny country will have the worlds most expensive hospital and one of the top 20 most expensive buildings in the world...

They can’t even afford to pay the nurses we have at the moment, but by some miracle they expect to manage, staff and maintain the worlds most expensive hospital...

The site location is a disaster. I sincerely hope I never have to go there.

ChikiChiki

We never do anything, we just complain complain complain, on the Internet or down the pub. Then if people do go and protest they are labeled as a waster for doing so.

This is reprehensible and BAM are laughing at the thick paddy's. Show some self respect ffs and take action. An email to Simon Harris with a cc to Leo would be a good start.

beauf

salmocab wrote: »

I’m not advocating it be in the city center, I think it should be somewhere accessible but it would make no sense to have it anywhere but Dublin.

In that case we will just have more traffic and other site will be just as expensive and gridlocked. Can't move on the M50 much of the day.

Blanchardstown has heavy traffic all around it and has sold of large chunks of it's land for housing a long time ago. It currently has expensive parking and limited spaces also and a ancient cash only parking system. It doesn't even have a cafe open much of the time.

You are basically saying an expensive option is the only option. If you want a hospital move to Dublin.

beauf

We are closing down services all over the country for lack of money. The solution build the worlds most expensive hospital.

Cushie Butterfield

Fur coat, no knickers.

Auguste Comte

beauf wrote: »

We are closing down services all over the country for lack of money. The solution build the worlds most expensive hospital.

The best little country in the world to build hospitals.

Cushie Butterfield

RTÉ NewsNow reporting that Tom Costelloe, chair of children’s hospital development board has stood down from his position.

is it just me or does leo fancy sailing off leaving this as his legacy being as he was in the medical game himself. I know there's a load of layabouts who'll protest at anything these days whilst spending a life on the dole with benefits but the so called squeezed middle need to man up, take a day off and turn up an gov building french style. I would be one such squeeze'd and id gladly call in sick.
Once again, more people mobilised for a rape trial in the north FFS. This is shocking and we're all paying for it. Waterford hospital locals marched last week for a heart attack service and now others are having to march for a feckin MRI machine.. you kiss all this goodbye whilst all the pigs noses are in the trough and this juggernaut causes a 100m a year vaccum taking everything around it down!

Signore Fancy Pants

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

RTÉ NewsNow reporting that Tom Costelloe, chair of children’s hospital development board has stood down from his position.

Only because of the potential "reputational damage" which it may cause him to remain associated with the project

He's saving himself.

ChikiChiki

Exactly this. The squeezed middle are all talk but no action!

Idbatterim

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Exactly this. The squeezed middle are all talk but no action!

I totally agree. Yeah the options we have to vote for are a farce. But our total indifference and lack of action simply means nothing will change ...

Cushie Butterfield

Dale Doback wrote: »

Only because of the potential "reputational damage" which it may cause him to remain associated with the project

He's saving himself.

It will be interesting to see if Brian Fitzgerald, Liam Woods & PAUL Quinn will do the decent thing & follow suit.

As qualified accountants they seem to have a distinct lack of basic skills as regards cost accounting & analysis & considering the other pies that they have their fingers in it may be prudent for them to stand down also, if only to save face.

What’s badly needed now is transparency & trust, qualities that appear to be sadly lacking with the current accounting ‘experts’. Their apparent ineptitude must be highly embarrassing, not to mention unprofessional. They need to go ASAP.

salmocab

beauf wrote: »

In that case we will just have more traffic and other site will be just as expensive and gridlocked. Can't move on the M50 much of the day.

Blanchardstown has heavy traffic all around it and has sold of large chunks of it's land for housing a long time ago. It currently has expensive parking and limited spaces also and a ancient cash only parking system. It doesn't even have a cafe open much of the time.

You are basically saying an expensive option is the only option. If you want a hospital move to Dublin.

If there is only to be one hospital then you put it close to the largest population base, especially as Dublin is reasonably central to the country and has most of the motorway network going out in a radial manner.
Yes the m50 is poxed but the hospital will be there for a century so with metro projects and dart underground it could be made better in time.

ToBeFrank123

The population of Ireland at the last census was 4.8 million.
The population of Dublin city is about 600,000.

Getting tired of the myth peddled by some that Dublin City has a larger population than the rest of Ireland combined.

Putting a children's hospital in the middle of Dublin city in one of the worst locations traffic wise was never going to end well. Even the average Dubliner will struggle to get to it or get parking. And expecting a sick child to travel on public transport due to parking problems is a non runner.

No-one is saying it should be built in Athlone or Cork or somewhere like that. But it should be easily accessible to everyone in Ireland, not just to the wealthy of Dublin, which seems to be the major consideration for many of these projects.

It should have been built on a greenfield site convenient to Dublin and the rest of the country which had acres of space for future expansion and also critically parking and a helicopter pad for emergencies. Somewhere between the M4 and M7 on the Kildare/Dublin border would have been perfect.

cnocbui

The population of Dublin including the greater metro area is 1.9 million - 40% of the national population.

ToBeFrank123

cnocbui wrote: »

The population of Dublin including the greater metro area is 1.9 million - 40% of the national population.

Yes. So put the hospital in the greater metro area, not the city centre.

The "must put everything in Dublin city centre" approach is serving Dublin, Dubliners and the rest of the country very badly. Its creating traffic chaos and housing shortages.
Some simple questions here:
Where do the staff live? How do they get to work? Where do visitors and relatives park? How do they get a sick child to the hospital? An ambulance required for every one of them? Do the administrators of the hospital expect sick children to travel by public transport when they are vulnerable to infections?
The mind boggles at the lack of foresight in planning all this.

cnocbui

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Yes. So put the hospital in the greater metro area, not the city centre.

Couldn't agree more. This country seems to think stupid is a worthy goal to strive for, rather than something to be avoided.

Johnnyhpipe

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The population of Ireland at the last census was 4.8 million.
The population of Dublin city is about 600,000.

Getting tired of the myth peddled by some that Dublin City has a larger population than the rest of Ireland combined.

Putting a children's hospital in the middle of Dublin city in one of the worst locations traffic wise was never going to end well. Even the average Dubliner will struggle to get to it or get parking. And expecting a sick child to travel on public transport due to parking problems is a non runner.

No-one is saying it should be built in Athlone or Cork or somewhere like that. But it should be easily accessible to everyone in Ireland, not just to the wealthy of Dublin, which seems to be the major consideration for many of these projects.

It should have been built on a greenfield site convenient to Dublin and the rest of the country which had acres of space for future expansion and also critically parking and a helicopter pad for emergencies. Somewhere between the M4 and M7 on the Kildare/Dublin border would have been perfect.

I’m from Dublin, still living in Dublin and don’t think this hospital should be where it is. Its madness, you could bever get to St. James’ as it was, either via South Circular or down the canal.

I’m a civil engineer and have assisted clients with site selection for over 15 years, and cannot see the logic to this one. No doubt someone has benefited greatly...

salmocab

I’m not sure many here have argued it should be in the city center in fact most agree that physically James’s is a poor location for anything. It’s not convenient even for most Dubs.

Gravelly

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

No doubt someone has benefited greatly...

I'm pretty sure the whole mess could be summed up by your last sentence. There are a few people / companies benefiting greatly from this, as with all capital projects, great and small, carried out in Ireland, and that is why we consistently **** them up.

Cushie Butterfield

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

I’m from Dublin, still living in Dublin and don’t think this hospital should be where it is. Its madness, you could bever get to St. James’ as it was, either via South Circular or down the canal.

I’m a civil engineer and have assisted clients with site selection for over 15 years, and cannot see the logic to this one. No doubt someone has benefited greatly...

If you’re looking at it purely from a civil engineering point of view, yes, it’s total madness & I think that’s what the majority of people’s view was from the get go, but seemingly the decision was based on a clinical point of view
‘As is best practice internationally from a clinical perspective, the new children’s hospital will be tri-located with an adult teaching hospital – St James’s Hospital - and in due course, with the relocated Coombe Women and Infants University Hospital.’

http://www.newchildrenshospital.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Response-on-why-St.-Jamess-Campus-is-the-best-site-for-the-new-childrens-hospital.pdf

It’s worth having a read of the above pdf - it’s pretty concise, & at least it provides some counter-arguments & dispels some myths.

AndrewJRenko

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

I’m from Dublin, still living in Dublin and don’t think this hospital should be where it is. Its madness, you could bever get to St. James’ as it was, either via South Circular or down the canal.

I’m a civil engineer and have assisted clients with site selection for over 15 years, and cannot see the logic to this one. No doubt someone has benefited greatly...

Do you reckon that you know something that the consultants, planners, architect and hospital adminstrator on the Dolphin Committee didn't already know when they chose the James site as the best option?


https://health.gov.ie/blog/press-release/announcement-of-the-composition-of-the-review-group-into-the-national-paediatric-hospital/

ToBeFrank123

It would have made more sense then to move St James hospital from its present location, and the new tri located hospital built outside of Dublin city centre. The last thing Dublin city centre needs is a new hospital. They would have recouped must of the cost of relocating St James by selling the land its now located on for much needed housing, which given the present shortage in Dublin, would have sold out quickly and for good money as we are near the peak again.

ToBeFrank123

There are several adult teaching hospitals in Dublin including Beaumont and Tallaght by the way.

ToBeFrank123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you reckon that you know something that the consultants, planners, architect and hospital adminstrator on the Dolphin Committee didn't already know when they chose the James site as the best option?


https://health.gov.ie/blog/press-release/announcement-of-the-composition-of-the-review-group-into-the-national-paediatric-hospital/

I'm sure he would have known not to underestimate the project by close to 1.5 billion like the supposed "experts" did.

Akrasia

Its not too late to stop this. Remember the bertie bowl? Thornton Hall?

Its not too late to stop this project and relocate it to a more suitable location. For the cost of building this long term asset, we should make damn sure its the right building in the right location.

iamwhoiam

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you reckon that you know something that the consultants, planners, architect and hospital adminstrator on the Dolphin Committee didn't already know when they chose the James site as the best option?


https://health.gov.ie/blog/press-release/announcement-of-the-composition-of-the-review-group-into-the-national-paediatric-hospital/

The same experts that let it go a billion over budget ?

ToBeFrank123

Akrasia wrote: »

Its not too late to stop this. Remember the bertie bowl? Thornton Hall?

Its not too late to stop this project and relocate it to a more suitable location. For the cost of building this long term asset, we should make damn sure its the right building in the right location.

Fully agree.

LorelaiG

Blanchardstown is the best site because it will have a maternity hospital on site, and co-location is one of the most important parts of building this children's hospital. It also needs somewhere the helipad can take the coast guard helicopter, again Connolly can do this.

I can't take the shouts of 'it can't go to Connolly because it doesn't have a proper parking system, it only takes cash, there's no cafe' then upgrade the systems, it will still come in under budget and there's plenty of space for extra parking.

Traffic around Blanchardstown is not half as bad as it is around the St. James' site. Sick kids do not travel to hospitals on buses, even to appointments, so public transport is not a huge factor in this.

The Bishop Basher

LorelaiG wrote: »

Sick kids do not travel to hospitals on buses, even to appointments, so public transport is not a huge factor in this.

This critical fact appears to have been entirely overlooked by the “experts” responsible for this farce.

If sick kids can’t get there, what’s the point of building it ?

I’m delighted to see it finally get some coverage and people starting to become incensed about it because it’s our relative silence that has allowed it get this far.

This will be the largest single waste of tax payers money in the history of the state if we allow it to go ahead.

ToBeFrank123

LorelaiG wrote: »

Blanchardstown is the best site because it will have a maternity hospital on site, and co-location is one of the most important parts of building this children's hospital. It also needs somewhere the helipad can take the coast guard helicopter, again Connolly can do this.

I can't take the shouts of 'it can't go to Connolly because it doesn't have a proper parking system, it only takes cash, there's no cafe' then upgrade the systems, it will still come in under budget and there's plenty of space for extra parking.

Traffic around Blanchardstown is not half as bad as it is around the St. James' site. Sick kids do not travel to hospitals on buses, even to appointments, so public transport is not a huge factor in this.

Fully agree. Parking was always going to be critical. Public transport would not be an option for most sick children and especially not the red luas line or even buses. You can have the best medical experts in the world but if the child gets a flu infection on the way to or from the hospital, its all a waste.

ChikiChiki

LorelaiG wrote: »

Blanchardstown is the best site because it will have a maternity hospital on site, and co-location is one of the most important parts of building this children's hospital. It also needs somewhere the helipad can take the coast guard helicopter, again Connolly can do this.

I can't take the shouts of 'it can't go to Connolly because it doesn't have a proper parking system, it only takes cash, there's no cafe' then upgrade the systems, it will still come in under budget and there's plenty of space for extra parking.

Traffic around Blanchardstown is not half as bad as it is around the St. James' site. Sick kids do not travel to hospitals on buses, even to appointments, so public transport is not a huge factor in this.

parking sytem is such a weak excuse. Multi stories are easily built ffs.

Odyssey 2005

As stated above, all works should be stopped. A new site found(blanch or tallaght) and both James and the new children's hospital built there. What they are trying to shoehorn into James is bonkers, someone is gaining(It isn't us). With the luas station running through the site the value of the James hospital site is enormous for home building. Why Leo and Harris are bulling this through is very suspicious to me.

Johnnyhpipe

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you reckon that you know something that the consultants, planners, architect and hospital adminstrator on the Dolphin Committee didn't already know when they chose the James site as the best option?


https://health.gov.ie/blog/press-release/announcement-of-the-composition-of-the-review-group-into-the-national-paediatric-hospital/

No, but none of my projects have ever run €1,300,000,000.00 over budget in fairness, so what do I know.

hmmm

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

As stated above, all works should be stopped.

I'm inclined to agree, but this is a political decision.

Do you continue with a large infrastructure project where there appears to be no sight of the final bill, or take a pause to reconsider your approach. Even if it costs us millions to pause the project, it might be better to do this rather than pour money into an unknown.

Yes we need a children's hospital, but the taxpayer cannot give this a blank cheque. There are other priorities for capital investment in health, and they can't all be sacrificed to pay for this.

There is a political responsibility on the Minister, who is ultimately in charge of the taxpayer spend, to say how much this will cost. Not how much consultants have told him, and not "subject to" and not "best estimates" - "Minister, how much will this cost?"

political analyst

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

As stated above, all works should be stopped. A new site found(blanch or tallaght) and both James and the new children's hospital built there. What they are trying to shoehorn into James is bonkers, someone is gaining(It isn't us). With the luas station running through the site the value of the James hospital site is enormous for home building. Why Leo and Harris are bulling this through is very suspicious to me.

Are you alleging what I think you're alleging? The project has been through an independent planning process and so the opponents of the choosing of this location were given the chance to have their say.



Wasn't the location of the new hospital originally intended to be in or near Bertie Ahern's constituency? Of course, FF's landslide defeat in 2011 put the kibosh on that.

AndrewJRenko

LorelaiG wrote: »

Traffic around Blanchardstown is not half as bad as it is around the St. James' site. Sick kids do not travel to hospitals on buses, even to appointments, so public transport is not a huge factor in this.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Fully agree. Parking was always going to be critical. Public transport would not be an option for most sick children and especially not the red luas line or even buses. You can have the best medical experts in the world but if the child gets a flu infection on the way to or from the hospital, its all a waste.

Rennaws wrote: »

This critical fact appears to have been entirely overlooked by the “experts” responsible for this farce.

If sick kids can’t get there, what’s the point of building it ?

I’m delighted to see it finally get some coverage and people starting to become incensed about it because it’s our relative silence that has allowed it get this far.

This will be the largest single waste of tax payers money in the history of the state if we allow it to go ahead.

Yes, parking certainly seems to be overlooked by many of the best children's hospitals in the world, like Great Ormonde St, who have no difficulty in asking people "to walk or use public transport, as it will help our patients to breathe better".


https://www.gosh.nhs.uk/your-hospital-visit/travelling-gosh

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

No, but none of my projects have ever run €1,300,000,000.00 over budget in fairness, so what do I know.

You certainly don't know much about how very large projects have different teams involved in different stages. The team that made the decision about the location have no ongoing involvement in the project.

political analyst

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The population of Ireland at the last census was 4.8 million.
The population of Dublin city is about 600,000.

Getting tired of the myth peddled by some that Dublin City has a larger population than the rest of Ireland combined.

Putting a children's hospital in the middle of Dublin city in one of the worst locations traffic wise was never going to end well. Even the average Dubliner will struggle to get to it or get parking. And expecting a sick child to travel on public transport due to parking problems is a non runner.

No-one is saying it should be built in Athlone or Cork or somewhere like that. But it should be easily accessible to everyone in Ireland, not just to the wealthy of Dublin, which seems to be the major consideration for many of these projects.

It should have been built on a greenfield site convenient to Dublin and the rest of the country which had acres of space for future expansion and also critically parking and a helicopter pad for emergencies. Somewhere between the M4 and M7 on the Kildare/Dublin border would have been perfect.

There'll be a thousand parking spaces at the new hospital.


https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/health/new-national-childrens-hospital-charge-12956457


As for heavy traffic, that happens in every city or big town anyway. You might have heard about ambulances having Garda escort so that the way will be cleared for them in advance to get to a hospital as soon as possible.


Presumably, paramedics have the means to keep a patient stable during a transfer from a general hospital to a specialist hospital, whether it's Crumlin for children or Beaumount for adults with serious head injuries, until they reach their destination, even if there is a delay.

AndrewJRenko

iamwhoiam wrote: »

The same experts that let it go a billion over budget ?

No - a completely different group, funnily enough.


So the question stands - what do you know about locating paediatric hospitals that the expert committee didn't know?

Odyssey 2005

political analyst wrote: »

Are you alleging what I think you're alleging? The project has been through an independent planning process and so the opponents of the choosing of this location were given the chance to have their say.



Wasn't the location of the new hospital originally intended to be in or near Bertie Ahern's constituency? Of course, FF's landslide defeat in 2011 put the kibosh on that.

I'm alleging that I'm suspicious. What do you think I'm alleging?
Ray Charles could see it's the wrong choice of location. Would Leo give an open cheque to a builder to extend his house ? Would Harris, would you ?.. It's not their own money so they don't give a bollix !