WiFi Enabled Timeclock (Google Assistant Compatible)

WetDaddy

Title says it all 

I currently have a legacy / first generation Heatmiser TM1-TS WiFi. It's not compatible with their Neo range and the Android app etc. is poor and unsupported. It's also not compatible with Google Assistant, which is what I definitely want.

Since we've no thermostat in our house and also only a single zone (AFAIK), I just need a basic time clock that's Google Assistant compatible. Does anyone have any recommendations that would fit the bill?

I could go and get a Nest or a pricier learning thermostat, but since it will literally only be turning the boiler on and off, I don't think there's any point. I'm happy to be corrected or if anyone has any suggestions at all, please let me know!

Thanks!

bk

Any of the smart thermostats would replace you timeclock.

Nest, Tado, Netatmo, etc.

Yes, they are also thermostats, but that is a good thing, it means you won't be overheating your home and wasting money on extra gas/oil.

You will likely save more then the cost of the device and probably a lot more on cheaper bills over a few years.

Also they are just way nicer to always have your home at a nice consistent temperature.

WetDaddy

Thanks! So, a related question then... The position of the time clock is pretty close to the boiler and on an external wall in the kitchen (a room which tends to be on the warmer side, although generally colder than upstairs).

Is there a big disadvantage to placing a thermostat there or is it just a few of figuring out what temperature generally works for our home?

Thanks in advance!

The high horse brigade

WetDaddy wrote: »

Thanks! So, a related question then... The position of the time clock is pretty close to the boiler and on an external wall in the kitchen (a room which tends to be on the warmer side, although generally colder than upstairs).

Is there a big disadvantage to placing a thermostat there or is it just a few of figuring out what temperature generally works for our home?

Thanks in advance!

Yes. Generally 19' is a good plane to start. I have a Netatmo and have our house at 19, rising to 19.5 for a few hours in the evening and falling to 18.5 during the night and on days when there's nobody home. It takes 2-3 weeks to learn the house, how long it takes to warm up and loose temperatures. It also monitors the outside forecast so that it comes on earlier in cold spells etc. I'm saving a good few hours heating a month using this method as opposed to a time clock.

The Netatmo is two part, there's a relay that goes in place of the time clock and then there's a remote wireless thermostat that you place wherever you want. I've ours mounted to the wall in the hallway

irishfire

Using a smart thermostat when you're not also using zoned controls is a bit of a cop out IMO and you are as well off fitting a smart switch rather than a smart thermostat.

I have 2 installed along with a smart plug, they connect directly to WiFi and have their own app with timers and countdowns etc, but also interface to Google home for voice control and remote control.

No gateway and very reliable so far.
The plugs also do a random setting that will turn on a lamp or similar at random periods during a set time for security, making it look like someone is home.

Will get the name of them and update but would advise strongly against smart thermostat in the meantime

ted1

irishfire wrote: »

Using a smart thermostat when you're not also using zoned controls is a bit of a cop out IMO and you are as well off fitting a smart switch rather than a smart thermostat.

I have 2 installed along with a smart plug, they connect directly to WiFi and have their own app with timers and countdowns etc, but also interface to Google home for voice control and remote control.

No gateway and very reliable so far.
The plugs also do a random setting that will turn on a lamp or similar at random periods during a set time for security, making it look like someone is home.

Will get the name of them and update but would advise strongly against smart thermostat in the meantime

I’ve to disagree with you . Smart thermostats are good and if recommend them.

irishfire

ted1 wrote:

I’ve to disagree with you . Smart thermostats are good and if recommend them.

When they are installed in a new build and property thought out then yes, they are very effective.

However any that I have seen retrofitted are normally not in an appropriate location for temperature sensing as they just replace a time clock so are in a utility room or similar.

Anyway the units I mentioned above are Optimum Connect by Tower.

The high horse brigade

irishfire wrote: »

When they are installed in a new build and property thought out then yes, they are very effective.

However any that I have seen retrofitted are normally not in an appropriate location for temperature sensing as they just replace a time clock so are in a utility room or similar.

Anyway the units I mentioned above are Optimum Connect by Tower.

Most are two part. The nest and Netatmo have a relay that gets fitted to do the switching and a remote wireless thermostat that you can use wherever, leave it on a table or hang it on the wall in whatever room you choose

ted1

irishfire wrote: »

When they are installed in a new build and property thought out then yes, they are very effective.

However any that I have seen retrofitted are normally not in an appropriate location for temperature sensing as they just replace a time clock so are in a utility room or similar.

Anyway the units I mentioned above are Optimum Connect by Tower.

They are generally Wireless and can be placed anyway, regardless as long as the temperatures in the wrong location is linear to the correct location then it’s licatuib is irrelevant.



A WiFi thermostat will turn on the heat in a empty building a smart one will not. That’s the key differentiator

Also if they just replace a thermostat then they are not smart.

Dardania

ted1 wrote: »

They are generally Wireless and can be placed anyway, regardless as long as the temperatures in the wrong location is linear to the correct location then it’s licatuib is irrelevant.



A WiFi thermostat will turn on the heat in a empty building a smart one will not. That’s the key differentiator

Also if they just replace a thermostat then they are not smart.

Maybe OP has TRV's so there is some form of temperature control (albeit not as good as full thing)

OP if you're making any capital investment here, as other posters have said you should get a smart thermostat

irishfire

ted1 wrote:

Also if they just replace a thermostat then they are not smart.

Dardania wrote:

OP if you're making any capital investment here, as other posters have said you should get a smart thermostat

To be fair, op never mentioned smart in the title or post, he wanted a WiFi time clock which I have advised him on.

As Discussed mentioned above, to get good use out of a "smart thermostat", requires a capital investment in proper zoning etc. The device I mentioned is available in wholesalers for about €40+VAT and is a huge improvement over a standard time clock.

ted1

irishfire wrote: »

To be fair, op never mentioned smart in the title or post, he wanted a WiFi time clock which I have advised him on.

As Discussed mentioned above, to get good use out of a "smart thermostat", requires a capital investment in proper zoning etc. The device I mentioned is available in wholesalers for about €40+VAT and is a huge improvement over a standard time clock.

No it doesn’t.... you don’t need to invest proper zoning.

You strongly advised against smart thermostats, explain why.

Your WiFi plug will keep the boiler on when the house is empty. A smart one won’t.

WetDaddy

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you guys. Been busy trying to cram these worms back into that can I opened... ;-)

Thanks very much to everyone for their input. I think there's valid points to both main opinions here. I decided to go with a gen3 Nest as it's provided with a Heat Link. That's effectively a remote switch which connects to the boiler directly (i.e. physically replaces the time clock) and the actual thermostat itself, which does all the smart work, can be placed elsewhere. It fits my needs but also allows me an element of future proofing.

I'll post back to let you know how it goes.

P. S. I'll probably move my current legacy WiFi time clock up to my hot water tank and not worry about leaving the immersion on!

Dardania

WetDaddy wrote: »

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you guys. Been busy trying to cram these worms back into that can I opened... ;-)

Thanks very much to everyone for their input. I think there's valid points to both main opinions here. I decided to go with a gen3 Nest as it's provided with a Heat Link. That's effectively a remote switch which connects to the boiler directly (i.e. physically replaces the time clock) and the actual thermostat itself, which does all the smart work, can be placed elsewhere. It fits my needs but also allows me an element of future proofing.

I'll post back to let you know how it goes.

P. S. I'll probably move my current legacy WiFi time clock up to my hot water tank and not worry about leaving the immersion on!

Brilliant solution. Trust it has it's own immersion thermostat?

Best of luck!

BTW do you have TRVs? worth considering...

irishfire

ted1 wrote:

You strongly advised against smart thermostats, explain why.

Coming from a background in construction and building services design and having seen houses be BER rated and energy usage reviews carried out, I would advise against installing smart thermostats in a retrofit situation unless there is proper zoning used or added as they do not provide a suitable return on investment in that configuration. We're talking about smart thermostats that are a minimum of €200 versus a WiFi time switch that runs at around €50 and will provide the same function a smart thermostat will that doesn't have any proper zoning behind it.

ted1 wrote:

Your WiFi plug will keep the boiler on when the house is empty. A smart one won’t.

In fact it won't, once I go outside my various geofences it changes the heating to different programs that I use to keep the coldness out of the house when I'm away or working in the office and also starts operating lights at random times after dark to simulate occupancy.

ted1 wrote:

No it doesn’t.... you don’t need to invest proper zoning.

Yes you do, and if you think that throwing a €200 thermostat into a house is the way to make it smart then you can have that opinion. But the fact remains that proper zoning is the back bone of a proper heating system.

At the end of the day your only controlling the zones you have to direct the heat generated, whether that's using lever valves, multi channel timers, the WiFi time switches I fit or indeed one of the full blown smart heating systems which I have no problems saying perform extremely well, when installed properly.

The high horse brigade

As I've already said I'm saving a good few hours heating a month with a smart thermostat compared to the previous timeclock. The house is warmer and I'm saving money.

ted1

irishfire wrote: »

Coming from a background in construction and building services design and having seen houses be BER rated and energy usage reviews carried out, I would advise against installing smart thermostats in a retrofit situation unless there is proper zoning used or added as they do not provide a suitable return on investment in that configuration. We're talking about smart thermostats that are a minimum of €200 versus a WiFi time switch that runs at around €50 and will provide the same function a smart thermostat will that doesn't have any proper zoning behind it.



In fact it won't, once I go outside my various geofences it changes the heating to different programs that I use to keep the coldness out of the house when I'm away or working in the office and also starts operating lights at random times after dark to simulate occupancy.



Yes you do, and if you think that throwing a €200 thermostat into a house is the way to make it smart then you can have that opinion. But the fact remains that proper zoning is the back bone of a proper heating system.

At the end of the day your only controlling the zones you have to direct the heat generated, whether that's using lever valves, multi channel timers, the WiFi time switches I fit or indeed one of the full blown smart heating systems which I have no problems saying perform extremely well, when installed properly.

Well my background is Energy Management even have a MSc in it.
I don’t rate the BER system as it’s seriously flawed.
Zoning in a your standard semi d isn’t really offering that much benefit. And can be expensive.

Electric Ireland offer the Nest for 130 with a free google mini.

The return on investment is there , and easily obtained. How ever realistically at the price it is, the consumer is more concerned about convience and functionality.

A WiFi Timer isn’t much different that a rotary dial one.

https://shop.electricireland.ie/80b6c6b753c05bdf9c1673b190dd30bfed80e35e63a63bcefce114da8b9ac55c/install-detail/nest-thermostat?_ga=2.14110452.254436988.1545925934-2065928432.1540934851

ted1

irishfire wrote: »

When they are installed in a new build and property thought out then yes, they are very effective.

However any that I have seen retrofitted are normally not in an appropriate location for temperature sensing as they just replace a time clock so are in a utility room or similar.

Anyway the units I mentioned above are Optimum Connect by Tower.

Smart thermostats like the best have a wireless thermostat that you can put in the best location and the relay box gets connected to the boiler.

As long as the temperature is linear in the utility room in comparison to the other rooms it’s diesbr matter to much where it is.

So say you want 21 deg in the sitting room , you might just set the thermostat in the utility room to 26. Not ideal but it works.

irishfire

This is a lot more related to residential settings but if you want to have that conversation then I have a BEng in Mechanical and an MEng in Energy Systems. My day to day work involves the design of building management systems and HVAC control and my views on this are shared by our 2 senior energy engineers. The BER most definitely has plenty of issues but it is the national system we use so there's not much point getting into that, DEAP 4 is supposedly going to address some of these issues.

Setting the temperature hotter in the utility is very much a bodge on what is supposed to be a smart system. It almost defeats the purpose of it being a smart system.

As for convenience I find that the system I use is a lot better than any of the smart thermostats as it integrates all the settings into one place for lighting and heating and the other controls I have on it, along with handling the interface with Google Home for voice control. I have total control of automation in the app without having to go into using IFTTT or similar. That's about as convenient as I could hope for especially when combined with the geofencing which controls all appliances in one control. They aren't just WiFi time clocks, they are WiFi switches that are cloud controlled and integrated, if I chose to add temperature sensing I could make them into a fully autonomous control.

The high horse brigade

Not sure what brands you've come across but none of the better smart systems are tying you to a thermostat in the utility.

ted1

irishfire wrote: »

This is a lot more related to residential settings but if you want to have that conversation then I have a BEng in Mechanical and an MEng in Energy Systems. My day to day work involves the design of building management systems and HVAC control and my views on this are shared by our 2 senior energy engineers. The BER most definitely has plenty of issues but it is the national system we use so there's not much point getting into that, DEAP 4 is supposedly going to address some of these issues.

Setting the temperature hotter in the utility is very much a bodge on what is supposed to be a smart system. It almost defeats the purpose of it being a smart system.

As for convenience I find that the system I use is a lot better than any of the smart thermostats as it integrates all the settings into one place for lighting and heating and the other controls I have on it, along with handling the interface with Google Home for voice control. I have total control of automation in the app without having to go into using IFTTT or similar. That's about as convenient as I could hope for especially when combined with the geofencing which controls all appliances in one control. They aren't just WiFi time clocks, they are WiFi switches that are cloud controlled and integrated, if I chose to add temperature sensing I could make them into a fully autonomous control.

My google mini integrates my Nest, smoke and CO alarms, lights, switches etc they are cloud controlled and locally controlled. How is it that you don’t understand that smart thermostats have all the integration too. ( I don’t consider the climote as smart )

Maybe we both were in the sane class when we got our BEng...

irishfire

The high horse brigade wrote:

Not sure what brands you've come across but none of the better smart systems are tying you to a thermostat in the utility.

I've seen all the common ones in Ireland, the UK and Germany, both mainstream and lesser known. Some very good, some very dodgy. I'm not trying to slate smart thermostats if that's what you're getting at, my point is that you won't get the benefit out of half installing these systems, and by half installing I mean that you're on a single zone system or have to set temperatures higher because the thermostat is not in the living area. Now on the other side, if you have even an up/down/water zoning, Nest is an ideal system and can really provide savings and flexibility on heating.

ted1 wrote:

My google mini integrates my Nest, smoke and CO alarms, lights, switches etc they are cloud controlled and locally controlled. How is it that you don’t understand that smart thermostats have all the integration too. ( I don’t consider the climote as smart )

I appreciate they have the integration, my point was that they don't have an all in the one app natively, I don't rely on Google Home to link the various items together. I don't think climote was going to get smart from day 1, closed system unfortunately. My main point is that a smart thermostat would be a waste of money for me as I have a single zone heating system at the moment. Now if and when I get around to changing that, something like nest will be a very attractive option for me. But in the meantime it's not worth the money as it is not able to do much that my own automation can't, through no fault of its own I should add.

ted1 wrote:

Maybe we both were in the sane class when we got our BEng...

I doubt it, I spent time on the tools before I jumped back into the books, still not sure was I right!

bk

irishfire wrote: »

I'm not trying to slate smart thermostats if that's what you're getting at, my point is that you won't get the benefit out of half installing these systems, and by half installing I mean that you're on a single zone system or have to set temperatures higher because the thermostat is not in the living area.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this. The majority of smart thermostats, specially the ones that we recommend here, all allow you to have the thermostat wireless and thus in the main living space.

Nest, Tado, Netatmo, Hive, Evohome.

These are all the most popular smart thermostats and they are all wireless.

Sure, there are one or two bad ones that don't work that way. They are more designed for mainland European setups where you are typically replacing a thermostat already installed in the living room or hall, rather then next to the boiler. Sure you can abuse them here in Ireland and install them next to the boiler, but non of us here in this forum would recommend that.

I have a single zoned home and getting a smart thermostat was the first HA product I bought and continues to be one of the best. I love it!

What you seem to be missing is the convenience and comfort factor of it.

Your advice of buying a wifi timeclock without a thermostat is poor IMO. You either have to control it by:

- Constantly logging into it and switching it on/off multiple times of day.
- Or setting a schedule for the boiler to switch on/off, which can't take temperature into account and thus will be either over and under heating your home and probably needs you to constantly adjust the schedule.

Both of the above are a pain in the ass and possibly wasting energy. The point of HA tech is to try and make life easier.

Smart Thermostats are great, even in single zoned homes, because they make life easier and more convenient. You set a schedule once, a schedule which sets what temperature your home should be at certain hours, rather then what time the boiler dumbly turns on/off.

And then you just forget about it, you almost never touch a smart thermostat again once set up, instead you leave it work away all year keeping your home at a constant, comfortable temperature, without it being overly wasteful of energy.

You can have the exact same schedule year round, because the thermostat has a thermostat, so the heating basically just doesn't come on in summer, because the thermostat part knows that the home is already warm enough.

A wifi timeclock, couldn't know that and you would need to be adjusting it constantly, not very convenient IMO.

It is more about convenience and comfort, then pure energy savings.

Also the capital expensive argument doesn't fly, after all, Energia offer Netatmo for free and they are other good deals on smart thermostats, e.g. Nest reduced, etc.

Don't get me wrong, of course you could also get even more benefits from getting a mutli zone setup, getting better insulation, etc.

But those are far more expensive, require many years to pay back and require far more careful maths and thought and are probably beyond this forum.

A smart thermostat is a nice, relatively cheap/free first step that definitely improves convenience and comfort IMO.

The high horse brigade

The best thing about smart thermostats that nobody has mentioned is the amazing statistics it gives

wexfordman2

I fail to understand how a heating engineer can say a standard in)off time switch (albeit with remote access) is a better solution compared to a smart system like nest with built in thermostats etc.

Can't get my head around how a basic on/off controlled heating system is in any way effeceint or would be promoted.

irishfire

wexfordman2 wrote:

I fail to understand how a heating engineer can say a standard in)off time switch (albeit with remote access) is a better solution compared to a smart system like nest with built in thermostats etc.

You haven't read the thread if you think we're talking about nest vs. timed only control. I'm talking about smart devices outside of nest etc that provide the geofences and timers that suit.

And yes, with the benefit of some home testing, and the experiences of other lads at work there are many situations where a smart system will do damn all good for a home heating system, and can even increase costs if the home is not occupied most of the time.

The high horse brigade

irishfire wrote: »

You haven't read the thread if you think we're talking about nest vs. timed only control. I'm talking about smart devices outside of nest etc that provide the geofences and timers that suit.

And yes, with the benefit of some home testing, and the experiences of other lads at work there are many situations where a smart system will do damn all good for a home heating system, and can even increase costs if the home is not occupied most of the time.

You say there are many, can you describe one?

Say I had an unoccupied holiday home I'd set the smart thermostat to away mode at say 8-12'c and there would never be an issue. No risk of heating coming on in summer or of frost in winter. When someone is returning there they just turn off away mode. I don't think you fully understand the features these smart thermostats offer, you've certainly never used one.

wexfordman2

irishfire wrote: »

Coming from a background in construction and building services design and having seen houses be BER rated and energy usage reviews carried out, I would advise against installing smart thermostats in a retrofit situation unless there is proper zoning used or added as they do not provide a suitable return on investment in that configuration. We're talking about smart thermostats that are a minimum of €200 versus a WiFi time switch that runs at around €50 and will provide the same function a smart thermostat will that doesn't have any proper zoning behind it.



In fact it won't, once I go outside my various geofences it changes the heating to different programs that I use to keep the coldness out of the house when I'm away or working in the office and also starts operating lights at random times after dark to simulate occupancy.



Yes you do, and if you think that throwing a €200 thermostat into a house is the way to make it smart then you can have that opinion. But the fact remains that proper zoning is the back bone of a proper heating system.

At the end of the day your only controlling the zones you have to direct the heat generated, whether that's using lever valves, multi channel timers, the WiFi time switches I fit or indeed one of the full blown smart heating systems which I have no problems saying perform extremely well, when installed properly.

So, you are advocating a wifi enabled time switch, backed up by logic control which provides geofencing and thermoatat control...in favour of a smart thermostat, which does the same thing, but professionally supported ?

And with regards a zoned system being the backbone, well obviously the heating system itself is the backbone, and it's effeceincy is mostly dependent on it's design.

Your caveat around smart thermostat working well, "when installed correctly" is a bit of an obvious statement. Smart thermostat do however facilitate better installation and design by virtue if the fact that they are wireless and allow more accurate positioning.

wexfordman2

irishfire wrote: »

You haven't read the thread if you think we're talking about nest vs. timed only control. I'm talking about smart devices outside of nest etc that provide the geofences and timers that suit.

And yes, with the benefit of some home testing, and the experiences of other lads at work there are many situations where a smart system will do damn all good for a home heating system, and can even increase costs if the home is not occupied most of the time.

How will a smart thermostat add to costs if the home is not occupied most of the time ?

Just how ?

ted1

irishfire wrote: »

You haven't read the thread if you think we're talking about nest vs. timed only control. I'm talking about smart devices outside of nest etc that provide the geofences and timers that suit.

And yes, with the benefit of some home testing, and the experiences of other lads at work there are many situations where a smart system will do damn all good for a home heating system, and can even increase costs if the home is not occupied most of the time.

The only time a smart system will cost more is if the house is under heated. And the user now has the ability to control it. Is that a bad thing? Hell no.

Aside from that it’ll save much more money over its life time and increase the comfort of the house. From my experience with HVAC and BMS engineers is that there are many bad ones out there.

Also how does the geo fencing work when the kids are alone or at home with a baby sitting ?

How does it compensate for external temperatures, if it needs to be 20 deg at 7 o clock what time will it start at?

How does is accommodate for different temperature settings?

irishfire

Ok well I came back to repeat answer some questions as some posters didn't read the whole thread but I'm drawing the line at questioning my professional competency, however indirectly you did it ted1.

I have earned two awards from CIBSE and one from SEAI for projects I have worked on; they are both governing/authoritative bodies of my profession so I will take their opinion over some hero shouting that the only way to improve your heating is to fit smart thermostats.
Attitudes like yours is why I tend to stay away from getting involved this site.

To answer your question I can add environmental sensors and presence sensing to totally automate it if I wanted and allow it to automatically bypass geofencing, or I can let it use Google's weather data, I have the choice.
As for different settings the whole point of me not having gotten involved in smart systems when I started automating my home was that I have a single zone system like I said and I was not going fitting electronic TRVs at the time as I intend to refurbish the entire system in the future.

Try having a read of the whole thread and comprehending what I'm talking about before you make comments like above.