Its bash the landlord time again

beauf

Yes I've seen normal rentals inspected.

If no one rented them the dodgy ones would go out of business or be forced to improve. Report them at least.

If there are no rentals of suitable quality the Govt should supply some.

The_Conductor

Graces7 wrote: »

HAP ask the full standards laid down in tenancy law. Which are not checked in ordinary rentals.

In all my years in private rentals I never had a house that complied fully with the rules and some were dangerous. It is so hard to find a rental that you tend to accept.

It is good that HAP enforces safety.

Not entirely accurate.
HAP ask for the full standards as laid down in the current building code- not just those standards as laid down in tenancy law. Current building regulations are current for new build dwellings. It was never intended to shoehorn current regulations into pre-existing dwellings- which instead, and obviously, are legally obliged to comply with the building regulations in place when the dwelling was built- not today's regulations.

Thus- a HAP inspection has a significantly higher standard associated with it- than does a regular rental check list- because there is an assumption that the dwelling has to comply with today's building regulations- and not the regulations in place when the property was built.

For reference- less than 7% of all dwellings in the country are compliant with today's building code- and if the Minister were to change the code again tomorrow- which they are entitled- that 7% would change to 0% overnight........

Aka- HAP requirements are a movable feast that will differ from property to property- depending on when the property was built. If the dwelling is a council/LA built dwelling from the 1980s- it may simply be easier to knock it down and rebuild- than try to meet a HAP checklist- more modern dwellings will meet more of the requirements- but even simple things like windows in bathrooms, separate electrical circuits for extractor fans etc- may not be that easy to retrofit into a property.

Its easier to decree a property non-HAP compliant- than it is to spend 20-30k making it HAP compliant- as its money that the landlord will never get back (and its not tax deductible- as its an improvement to the property- keep in mind only work which returns a property to a like for like basis- is tax deductible- so double/triple glazed windows, insulation etc- none of it is tax deductible...........)

HAP regulations are all well and good- and would be fine- if they were simply transposing current tenancy requirements into law- the trouble is, they're not. Also- there is an onus on all local authorities to inspect HAP accommodation within 24 months of the commencement of the tenancy (ideally within 12). Its a requirement (that they're not meeting). Any given property is probably 12-15 times more likely to be inspected if its a HAP tenancy- than if its a regular tenancy (which also shouldn't be the case- there should be a common set of rules- and a common expectation that everyone should be compliant with them).

Its one set of rules for HAP tenants- and an entirely much more relaxed set of rules- for everyone else.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

What happens if the landlord can't afford to comply with hap requirements?

Pkiernan

ak75r0x3pjheun wrote: »

What happens if the landlord can't afford to comply with hap requirements?

The Local Authority will impose fines.

In reality, for most dwellings, the standards are not very difficult to achieve.

The_Conductor

Pkiernan wrote: »

The Local Authority will impose fines.

In reality, for most dwellings, the standards are not very difficult to achieve.

It really depends on the age of the property. Any post 1963- pre 1990 dwelling- will require remedial work- which might include masonry work (windows for bathrooms, extractor fans etc) rewiring and possibly plumbing or other works.

Honestly- you would be hardpressed to find an owner occupier in the country whose house meets HAP guidelines- according to the SEAI- less than 7% of our housing stock meets current energy efficient regulations (never mind a wishlist with windows and other items on it).

Old diesel

The_Conductor wrote: »

It really depends on the age of the property. Any post 1963- pre 1990 dwelling- will require remedial work- which might include masonry work (windows for bathrooms, extractor fans etc) rewiring and possibly plumbing or other works.

Honestly- you would be hardpressed to find an owner occupier in the country whose house meets HAP guidelines- according to the SEAI- less than 7% of our housing stock meets current energy efficient regulations (never mind a wishlist with windows and other items on it).

Where are these HAP guidelines coming from - as in who decides that a particular standard should apply.

Is it inspectors working off their own bat?????.

Local authorities?????.

Government?????

HAP in Limerick?????

overkill602

Any failings in HAP are evidenced in many posts here both for people looking and LLs avoiding it
It was ill-conceived and no consultation with private LLs who they want rid of I wouldn’t touch it
A place is better off vacant imo

splinter65

Old diesel wrote: »

Where are these HAP guidelines coming from - as in who decides that a particular standard should apply.

Is it inspectors working off their own bat?????.

Local authorities?????.

Government?????

HAP in Limerick?????

I wouldn’t be involved in the rental market either from the home owners point of view or the local authority’s point of view for all the tea in China.
The inquest following a tragic fire in voluntary housing in which a woman and small children perished found that the smoke alarm had been dismantled. A witness at the inquest recalled having helped dismantle it. The fireman said the fire started from a candle lit under the tv stand. A slab of beer had been consumed. These facts are without doubt.
Yet the general consensus on social media was that the housing was shoddy and it was the housing authorities fault.
You can’t win when it comes to standards.

murphaph

splinter65 wrote: »

I wouldn’t be involved in the rental market either from the home owners point of view or the local authority’s point of view for all the tea in China.
The inquest following a tragic fire in voluntary housing in which a woman and small children perished found that the smoke alarm had been dismantled. A witness at the inquest recalled having helped dismantle it. The fireman said the fire started from a candle lit under the tv stand. A slab of beer had been consumed. These facts are without doubt.
Yet the general consensus on social media was that the housing was shoddy and it was the housing authorities fault.
You can’t win when it comes to standards.

Sadly this is typical now in Ireland. It's always someone else's fault.

BBFAN

I installed vents in my house that I was letting at the request of HAP and had the tenants complaining that they were causing a draught!

When they moved out I found every vent covered with newspaper.

You really can't win.

Much older houses are never going to come up to the required standard for HAP and yet most of us have lived in them all our lives and are still alive and healthy.

Graces7

BBFAN wrote: »

I installed vents in my house that I was letting at the request of HAP and had the tenants complaining that they were causing a draught!

When they moved out I found every vent covered with newspaper.

You really can't win.

Much older houses are never going to come up to the required standard for HAP and yet most of us have lived in them all our lives and are still alive and healthy.

Guilty M'Lud!

There are vents built in here and the one behind my bed was dreadful fr a draft...Well covered now but the others are left intact.

The rules and daily life are often at odds.

And vents are a sound idea given the deaths from carbon monoxide. Just they could be better placed? eg above the window in here where there is no furniture.

Graces7

splinter65 wrote: »

I wouldn’t be involved in the rental market either from the home owners point of view or the local authority’s point of view for all the tea in China.
The inquest following a tragic fire in voluntary housing in which a woman and small children perished found that the smoke alarm had been dismantled. A witness at the inquest recalled having helped dismantle it. The fireman said the fire started from a candle lit under the tv stand. A slab of beer had been consumed. These facts are without doubt.
Yet the general consensus on social media was that the housing was shoddy and it was the housing authorities fault.
You can’t win when it comes to standards.

I took my smoke alarms out here. They were ultra sensitive and the screaming of them was terrible.

But I do not do things like lighting candles in such places. Or drinking.

beauf

I think the problem is if you have a vent thats in line with the prevailing wind. It just blows straight into it. You can get baffles/cowls for them to minimise this.

Sticking a 6" hole in a wall seems very medieval.

ToBeFrank123

beauf wrote: »

I think the problem is if you have a vent thats in line with the prevailing wind. It just blows straight into it. You can get baffles/cowls for them to minimise this.

Sticking a 6" hole in a wall seems very medieval.

Agreed. Whatever happened to opening a window?

LotharIngum

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Agreed. Whatever happened to opening a window?

Its not allowed that you would ever even have to think of doing such a thing.
So they want holes in the wall instead.

Old diesel

beauf wrote: »

I think the problem is if you have a vent thats in line with the prevailing wind. It just blows straight into it. You can get baffles/cowls for them to minimise this.

Sticking a 6" hole in a wall seems very medieval.

On airtight modern homes or properly done deep retrofit jobs the thinking is increasingly going towards MVHR or demand controlled ventilation.

MVHR is what you will see in say a Passive house - it can deliver fresh air to each room but the ingenuity of it is in winter the heat of the air going out of the house heats up the air coming in.

My understanding of demand controlled vestilation is that it can detect changes of humidity and based on that do its thing as required.

So you are right sticking a 6"" hole in the wall is pretty medieval in a 2019 technology context.

Edit - just to note as well that Passive house and the like STILL allow you open a window.

All modern thinking is saying with very airtight homes don't rely on natural ventilation alone

Graces7

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Agreed. Whatever happened to opening a window?

We are not trusted? Although given that there are so many deaths from carbon monoxide clearly we should not be trusted? Modern houses tend to have good draftproofing. I would not block the other vents for that reason. Just the one above the bed.

That case a while ago.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/3381206/clare-family-carbon-monoxide-poisoning-lisdoonvarna/

LotharIngum

Old diesel wrote: »

My understanding of demand controlled vestilation is that it can detect changes of humidity and based on that do its thing as required.

I have it in my apartment. IT turns on the fans on the walls when humidity is high. It worked fine for a couple of years. No mold at all.
Next tenant complained about mold in the bedroom. When I called up to have a look what did I see?
A clothes horse full of wet clothes shoved right up against the heater in the bedroom. The dryer doesn't dry the clothes properly she said. Spin them and leave them in it til they are dry and it will. Some people are just thick.

beauf

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Agreed. Whatever happened to opening a window?

I take your point but Its kinda solving a different problem though.

LotharIngum

Graces7 wrote: »

I would not block the other vents for that reason. Just the one above the bed.

The very vent that might save your life in the even of a carbon monoxide incident.

Don't block that.

overkill602

Graces7 wrote: »

I took my smoke alarms out here. They were ultra sensitive and the screaming of them was terrible.

But I do not do things like lighting candles in such places. Or drinking.

I had a tenant who did same i got and engineer out to check the system he reported back to me the system was fine and insisted no one should ever remove these sensors unless they are faulty and it should only done by a qualified person.
I issued a warning they still took them down again didnt renew part 4 so now they are gone.

Graces7

LotharIngum wrote: »

The very vent that might save your life in the even of a carbon monoxide incident.

Don't block that.

I left the other vents clear. There is abundant ventilation here, believe me. Bless your caring but be at ease re me. And there is no way to live with the vent above the bed. The north wind blows straight in.

Graces7

overkill602 wrote: »

I had a tenant who did same i got and engineer out to check the system he reported back to me the system was fine and insisted no one should ever remove these sensors unless they are faulty and it should only done by a qualified person.
I issued a warning they still took them down again didnt renew part 4 so now they are gone.

My smoke/heat alarms, well apart from the one he had put right above the gas cooker that I axed to death, were removed by a highly qualified electrician. They are very simple devices. All you do it take the battery out and you can put it back at any time.

My landlord is fine about it all.

Graham

Graces7 wrote: »

My landlord is fine about it all.

He shouldn't be.

Apart from the obviously increased risk to yourself and the property, it's quite likely you've put the landlord in the position where the property no longer meets the minimum standards.

overkill602

My smoke/heat alarms, well apart from the one he had put right above the gas cooker that I axed to death, were removed by a highly qualified electrician. They are very simple devices. All you do it take the battery out and you can put it back at any time.

My landlord is fine about it all.

With ref my system is a modern integrated one in a multi-unit dwelling required and regularly certified it is legal requirement as is fire blankets and fire exit plan
The LL is not adhering to current standards.

The_Conductor

Graces7 wrote: »

My smoke/heat alarms, well apart from the one he had put right above the gas cooker that I axed to death, were removed by a highly qualified electrician. They are very simple devices. All you do it take the battery out and you can put it back at any time.

My landlord is fine about it all.

If the property is ever inspected- its not compliant with minimum renting standards (and you do not get to pick and choose which standards suit you and which don't)- and in the event of an unfortunate fire or accident- any insurance policy on the property would be deemed null and void.

Just because it suited you- or didn't suit you- to have firealarms- or ventilation removed or nullified- does not mean its your right to do so- or your landlord's right to allow you to do so.

Graces7

The_Conductor wrote: »

If the property is ever inspected- its not compliant with minimum renting standards (and you do not get to pick and choose which standards suit you and which don't)- and in the event of an unfortunate fire or accident- any insurance policy on the property would be deemed null and void.

Just because it suited you- or didn't suit you- to have firealarms- or ventilation removed or nullified- does not mean its your right to do so- or your landlord's right to allow you to do so.

It was and is medical need. I have a hearing impairment that makes the shrieking damaging and painful.

Please do not now trivialise disability factors; blessings and thanks.

Rights? OK.

Samuel T. Cogley

It doesn't change the fact that you're LL is most likely uninsured. Any insurance I've had required two smoke alarms to be fitted.

The_Conductor

Graces7 wrote: »

It was and is medical need. I have a hearing impairment that makes the shrieking damaging and painful.

Please do not now trivialise disability factors; blessings and thanks.

Rights? OK.

There are different types of firealarms you can get- no-one is trivialising disabilities- we are simply stating the law is black and white- you do not get a derogation from the need to have fire alarms because you have a hearing impediment (as indeed do I). There are firealarms specifically for deaf or the hard-of-hearing- most of which feature strobe lighting.

Up to 20% of all fire alarm systems fitted in Ireland annually are specifically for the deaf or the hard-of-hearing- reflecting the fact that greater than 1-in-6 of all Irish people have severe to complete hearing impediments in this country. This is what you *need*- removing the batteries from the pre-existing system- is, quite frankly, incredibly short sighted- and illegal.

Talk to your local officer- he/she can suggest local installers of smoke alarm and/or suppression systems- suitable for the hard-of-hearing- pretty much any installer keeps a supply of these systems in stock.

I'm not entirely sure who your electrician was- however, he/she has left you without a fire warning/smoke detection system- the absence of which, in the context of a rental property- is illegal (if you own the house- its not illegal- but it will void any insurance policy you have on the property).

murphaph

beauf wrote: »

I think the problem is if you have a vent thats in line with the prevailing wind. It just blows straight into it. You can get baffles/cowls for them to minimise this.

Sticking a 6" hole in a wall seems very medieval.

In Germany (and other continental countries) they never did this vent thing. That constant draught would be considered incredibly wasteful. Everyone knows you should properly air your place at least in the mornings. All windows are thrown wide open to create a strong cross draught that quickly exchanges the damp air inside for drier air outside. The early mornings are best because the air is at its coldest and so has had to shed most of its moisture (that's where morning dew comes from) and can take on plenty when let in to the dwelling. Doing it in this way preserves the heat in the dwelling (the air itself doesn't hold the heat, the structure and its contents do).

fineso.mom

Graces7 wrote: »

My smoke/heat alarms, well apart from the one he had put right above the gas cooker that I axed to death, were removed by a highly qualified electrician. They are very simple devices. All you do it take the battery out and you can put it back at any time.

My landlord is fine about it all.

I'd be very wary of any electrician ( 'highly qualified' or not) , who would remove smoke alarms.
I also find it very odd that the council told you it was fine.

garhjw

Graces7 wrote: »

It was and is medical need. I have a hearing impairment that makes the shrieking damaging and painful.

Please do not now trivialise disability factors; blessings and thanks.

Rights? OK.

You’re either taking the pi*ss or very stupid. I can’t belive you would be stupid enough to disable smoke or fire alarms. Very glad you are not my tenant.

Graces7

fineso.mom wrote: »

I'd be very wary of any electrician ( 'highly qualified' or not) , who would remove smoke alarms.
I also find it very odd that the council told you it was fine.

As they are way behind with fitting alarms and other works, that is fine too.
Far more vital to get them into houses where there are larger families with kids than just me here ..
It was their electrician.. Fine man and fine worker..When he was stoopid enough to put a heat alarm directly above the gas hob and wire the m so that when one went off they all did? All because I was cooking.

That made the place uninhabitable and a health hazard for someone with my disabilities and this is a disability assisted property .

We managed fine without them all these decades. I am happier without them .

Graces7

Graham wrote: »

He shouldn't be.

Apart from the obviously increased risk to yourself and the property, it's quite likely you've put the landlord in the position where the property no longer meets the minimum standards.

A matter of minutes to fix that .

and no use minimum standards if they make the place unlivable.

Graces7

murphaph wrote: »

In Germany (and other continental countries) they never did this vent thing. That constant draught would be considered incredibly wasteful. Everyone knows you should properly air your place at least in the mornings. All windows are thrown wide open to create a strong cross draught that quickly exchanges the damp air inside for drier air outside. The early mornings are best because the air is at its coldest and so has had to shed most of its moisture (that's where morning dew comes from) and can take on plenty when let in to the dwelling. Doing it in this way preserves the heat in the dwelling (the air itself doesn't hold the heat, the structure and its contents do).

My door is opened many times each day and evening to let the cats in and out and the kitchen window open a little every night. No need here for vents.

Fol20

Graces7 wrote: »

My door is opened many times each day and evening to let the cats in and out and the kitchen window open a little every night. No need here for vents.

It seems like your making excuses to avoid a basic requirement that is mandatory in the place.

Graces7

The_Conductor wrote: »

There are different types of firealarms you can get- no-one is trivialising disabilities- we are simply stating the law is black and white- you do not get a derogation from the need to have fire alarms because you have a hearing impediment (as indeed do I). There are firealarms specifically for deaf or the hard-of-hearing- most of which feature strobe lighting.

Up to 20% of all fire alarm systems fitted in Ireland annually are specifically for the deaf or the hard-of-hearing- reflecting the fact that greater than 1-in-6 of all Irish people have severe to complete hearing impediments in this country. This is what you *need*- removing the batteries from the pre-existing system- is, quite frankly, incredibly short sighted- and illegal.

Talk to your local officer- he/she can suggest local installers of smoke alarm and/or suppression systems- suitable for the hard-of-hearing- pretty much any installer keeps a supply of these systems in stock.

I'm not entirely sure who your electrician was- however, he/she has left you without a fire warning/smoke detection system- the absence of which, in the context of a rental property- is illegal (if you own the house- its not illegal- but it will void any insurance policy you have on the property).

So moving to read such concern; blessings and thanks .

I am happy with things as they are thank you. Too old to chase officials.

And I am sure the relevant authorities ie the council, are very experienced and capable in these matters.It was their electrician So please do not concern your good self.

They rarely come out here to this small, remote and peaceful island. And have several jobs to do here; been waiting for over a year so not holding my breath... all is well.. and I know many others who have done as I have done. There has been afaik no compatability studies, no attempt to ensure these alarms and vents do not cause discomfort,

After all, we claim peaceful and private enjoyment... dratted alarm nearly gave me a heart attack
OK; closing on this!Blessings and peace.

Graces7

Fol20 wrote: »

It seems like your making excuses to avoid a basic requirement that is mandatory in the place.

Goodnight and God bless!

Fol20

Graces7 wrote: »

So moving to read such concern; blessings and thanks .

I am happy with things as they are thank you. Too old to chase officials.

And I am sure the relevant authorities ie the council, are very experienced and capable in these matters.It was their electrician So please do not concern your good self.

They rarely come out here to this small, remote and peaceful island. And have several jobs to do here; been waiting for over a year so not holding my breath... all is well.. and I know many others who have done as I have done. There has been afaik no compatability studies, no attempt to ensure these alarms and vents do not cause discomfort,

After all, we claim peaceful and private enjoyment... dratted alarm nearly gave me a heart attack
OK; closing on this!Blessings and peace.

The government are known for handling things efficiently 🙄.

All that would happen is if anything happened and people got hurt, there would be a scandal and a investigation with politicians coming out saying something has to be done until the next bigger headline shows up.

1874

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Agreed. Whatever happened to opening a window?

LotharIngum wrote: »

Its not allowed that you would ever even have to think of doing such a thing.
So they want holes in the wall instead.

Id a tenant years ago, Id lived in the house myself previously, never saw a bit of mould, when they left there was mould around corners of ceilings and walls and around the windows.
I wondered why there was mould when Id never experienced it myself,

realised/discovered all the windows were locked, with keys removed (I know key locks probably not allowed now, but this was a while back), a number of vents blocked up, Id guessed they werent using the heating and probably they thought they were saving on costs, I came to this conclusion as I discovered they'd shut off balancing valves in the rads as well as the adjustable side (I dont know why they thought closing both sides would do anything more/better), one of these people was an engineer, I dont know why they didnt just not turn on the boiler, obviously clueless. They damaged some electrics too, yet tenants Id had removed batteries from smoke alarms rather than replace them when the constant bips were warning them of low batteries, I bought batteries and again they removed them as they claimed they had nuisance alarms, I think they were either burning food or smoking directly under them.
You do not want tenants doing their own work for whatever reason, bodge repairs or dismantling safety measures. I read recently too about someone gluing open a Circuit breaker!? when a circuit was shut off for some work.



You cannot rely on people to do what are clearly simple and straightforward things, you cant come to the conclusion they have the same experience, knowledge or understanding of things, while this explains away a lot, some people are downright idiots, if they dont know about something, they shouldnt tamper with it.

So, regarding, ventilation, the only way forward, especially for tenanted properties can only be Mechanical ventilation and heat recovery, the problem with that is, its not as useful(Id say ineffective from a heating point) without both correct airtightness and insulation, but it may still help with ventialtion and prevent mould, assuming they dont shut the power off to any ventilation/heat exchanger (fan) to save electricity.


What I find appaling, I read in the last few months that a certain FG minister had sought to limit discussion of passive house standards as it was making their own suggestions look bad regarding cheaping out on insulation/airtightness in new builds in an alleged effort to get more new builds constructed. All the while the same government presiding over putting the boot in over alleged or actual lower standards in rentals (existing builds) when they themselves prevent improvements in rentals by a number of means.

Even the new childrens hospital they are already talking about kicking the can down the road to retrofitting improvements for energy efficiency rather than doing it now.


MVHR would be ideal for rented property, if the tenant doesnt decide to shut off the power to a heat exchanger, you just cant assume they wont do that.

the_syco

Graces7 wrote: »

My door is opened many times each day and evening to let the cats in and out and the kitchen window open a little every night. No need here for vents.

If you weren't in the backarse of nowhere, you would have probably been robbed by now.

murphaph

I also had the experience of living in a property and never once experiencing mould to renting it out and the bathroom bing black with mould within months, despite having a velux window to provide super airing after a bath or shower.

I decided to add a humidity controlled extractor fan despite the window to save myself another redecorating job but I'm sure some day I'll face the clothes horse of wet clothes in the bedroom with the shut windows.

People can be really stupid.

In my own house I have passive house levels of airtightness and demand controlled ventilation cos I knew airing would be even more important in such a property. I'm quite certain many tenants would switch the unit off to "save money" if it were a rental.

Old diesel

murphaph wrote: »

I also had the experience of living in a property and never once experiencing mould to renting it out and the bathroom bing black with mould within months, despite having a velux window to provide super airing after a bath or shower.

I decided to add a humidity controlled extractor fan despite the window to save myself another redecorating job but I'm sure some day I'll face the clothes horse of wet clothes in the bedroom with the shut windows.

People can be really stupid.

In my own house I have passive house levels of airtightness and demand controlled ventilation cos I knew airing would be even more important in such a property. I'm quite certain many tenants would switch the unit off to "save money" if it were a rental.

I suspect a decent handover to the tenants is vital with these set ups.

Decent instructions in writing as well so if they have a question afterwards they can find out the answer without having to ring the landlord.

Apart from anything else many tenants will never have even heard of MVHR in their lIves.

No it wont completely stop stupidity but you'd want to be a special breed of clown to turn off MVHR after a proper induction and explanation of how it works.

The Student

Old diesel wrote: »

I suspect a decent handover to the tenants is vital with these set ups.

Decent instructions in writing as well so if they have a question afterwards they can find out the answer without having to ring the landlord.

Apart from anything else many tenants will never have even heard of MVHR in their lIves.

No it wont completely stop stupidity but you'd want to be a special breed of clown to turn off MVHR after a proper induction and explanation of how it works.

Trust me there are some "special breed of clown's" out there. Switching off systems designed for their comfort/safety, blocking vents and its us landlords are blamed.